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Author Topic: Winter is Coming...  (Read 36891 times)

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Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #100 on: April 23, 2012, 06:32:10 AM »
On topic: I absolutely _ADORE_ Harrenhal. It has a great haunted look, that was very well done.

Otherwise... Baelish in Renly's camp? Giving Cat the thought to release THE prisoner? >:( In the books she could outwit them all, save perhaps for Tywin Lannister... why are they robbing her of that for the show? :'(

On another note, hurrying still? Making Arya a cupbearer for Tywin makes a considerable shortcut, although this time I'm rather pleased. It means we'll get to see more of papa Lannister. >:)
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
But it will also lower him a bit when she gets to escape. Also, she will no longer bear the flayed man of Bolton on her clothing, but lion-on-crimson of the Lannisters (if there is a sigil at all), which will mark her immediately for anyone to see... But then again, Lady of the Leaves (? not sure - the one that bathed Arya and gave her a dress, then when Arya romped in a friendly [sort of] fight with Gendry [in the Smithy?] and tore the dress, she forced Arya to bathe again and gave her her son's clothes) might come pretty early after Harrenhal, so it might not endanger her that much...

I really like the music. I hope we'll get to hear more Ramin Djawadi than Clash of Titans. The title theme is enchanting. :-)

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #101 on: April 23, 2012, 10:07:38 AM »
On topic: I absolutely _ADORE_ Harrenhal. It has a great haunted look, that was very well done.

Otherwise... Baelish in Renly's camp? Giving Cat the thought to release THE prisoner? >:( In the books she could outwit them all, save perhaps for Tywin Lannister... why are they robbing her of that for the show? :'(

On another note, hurrying still? Making Arya a cupbearer for Tywin makes a considerable shortcut, although this time I'm rather pleased. It means we'll get to see more of papa Lannister. >:)
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
But it will also lower him a bit when she gets to escape. Also, she will no longer bear the flayed man of Bolton on her clothing, but lion-on-crimson of the Lannisters (if there is a sigil at all), which will mark her immediately for anyone to see... But then again, Lady of the Leaves (? not sure - the one that bathed Arya and gave her a dress, then when Arya romped in a friendly [sort of] fight with Gendry [in the Smithy?] and tore the dress, she forced Arya to bathe again and gave her her son's clothes) might come pretty early after Harrenhal, so it might not endanger her that much...

I really like the music. I hope we'll get to hear more Ramin Djawadi than Clash of Titans. The title theme is enchanting. :-)

Hell I'm still trying to figure out the whores with Joffrey and Baelish bringing Cat Ned's bones (the part you mentioned did have my teeth gritting though) since the bones of Ned (and the daughters) were part and parcel in the peace offering. What the hell are they trying to do? Only thing I can think of is they thought Baelish needed more interaction? (Or they are trying to dumb down Cat)

It is getting a little frustrating to be watching the show and go 'hey, wait... what about....' because they skipped big chunks - or alternatively, sit and scratch my head going 'uhhh... I know that wasn't in the book'. At least they did let Arya keep her naming off the people she wants to kill as she goes to sleep every night.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #102 on: April 23, 2012, 11:03:14 AM »
I really think they are just trying to rush through. I believe I remember Tyrion thinking about a whore for Joffrey at some point, but he never got to realization. On the whores they actually got to show just how twisted Joffrey is and with Baelish they get to show that he really is with the Lannisters, unless he stole the bones and just tries to play all sides, but that doesn't seem too likely to me. If he were, he'd tell Cat that Cersei didn't have Arya. With him bringing the bones, I only assume there will be no counter offer from Joffrey and
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Catelyn will free Jaime at once.

Yes, Arya gets to name all the people that she wants to kill, but she needed advice from Yoren to start it. Doh. >.<

I also really like how Sophie is portraying Sansa. This ep and the last ep you just palpably know that she's lying when she says "I'm loyal to King Joffrey, I love him with all my heart." I like how Tyrion suggested to her to break the engagement, it shows greatly his compassion to those that are somehow disadvantaged...

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #103 on: April 23, 2012, 11:17:47 AM »
Sansa was one of those characters that I really did not like - all consumed with being pretty and having pretty things. And then she was betrothed to Joffrey and it got worse, to the point that she became a brat to her own father. Its like she is a twit with half a brain (Im pretty, oh so pretty. Oh look shiny!)

Her saving grace was pleading for his life.

Of course, yes, she is in a very nasty situation and has learned the right of it - say what is expected of her, do what is expected of her or else. But she is just so unlikable to me despite the fact that she is being used as a pawn (and will continue to be). I guess I just like characters with spunk (Arya).

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #104 on: April 23, 2012, 11:40:43 AM »
I agree, IO. My loathing for Sansa reached its peak when it got revealed that she betrayed Ned to his death, albeit unwittingly.

On another note, she was only eleven when she came to King's Landing and she was _raised_ to be exactly this oh-look-I'm-so-pretty halfwit. She was painfully unprepared for the situation that she found herself in. Of course, she is no Arya, but part of Arya's survival is thanks to her defying any ladylike education that her mother and Septa Mordane wanted to teach her. Jon realized that and gave her Needle. Ned realized that and hired Syrio Forel. Those two are the only reasons Arya made it past the stables of the Red Keep, while Sansa didn't. I'm quite confident that if it were Sansa, she'd survive a month in Flea Bottom as well, because the need would teach her a lot, although Yoren would have a much harder time to pass her for a boy.

Arya is the black sheep of the family, not the other way around. Sure, it's not much useful, but Sansa learned it pretty hard way, but it is what young ladies are supposed to be. Take Jeyne Pool, for example. From what we got to see of her, she was Sansa times two...

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #105 on: April 23, 2012, 11:56:12 AM »
I have to wonder how Sansa and Arya are going to turn out - especially after reading Arya's pov chapters in Dancing with Dragons and where Sansa found herself after...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Her marriage to Tyrion and subsequent escape from King's Landing only to find herself lying about who she is with Baelish trying to substitute her for Cat once he got her up in the Eyrie. At least there you see some compassion in her considering Lord Arryn's son.

Have to say, I am eagerly looking forward to seeing Baelish get what is coming to him. He irritates me more than Varys does. Varys seems to actually want to protect the realm while Baelish just seems like a slimy little shit out for his own gain.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 11:57:25 AM by Iniquitous Opheliac »

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #106 on: April 23, 2012, 11:58:31 AM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
From what I read on Westeros wiki, the only person who seems to get what's coming to him is Theon Greyjoy. With interest, though. ;D

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #107 on: April 23, 2012, 12:00:00 PM »
OMG does he get what is coming to him and then some!

However - if you haven't read Dance with Dragons, just wait. He does meet up with his sister.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #108 on: April 23, 2012, 12:13:22 PM »
To be honest, one needs to consider, though, what does "get what's coming" encompass.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I mean, Joffrey gets poisoned by The Strangler... not the nicest way to go, if you ask me. Cersei, according to a prophecy, will outlive all her children, aside from what awaits her with her trial and disgrace, plus Jaime will leave her.

Some of them at least -do- get their "share."

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #109 on: April 23, 2012, 12:17:13 PM »
I suspect that all of them get at least their 'share' in some fashion or another lol. Just some get more than their share and some don't get enough in my opinion.

At one point I was trying to guess who would make it to the end of the series alive, but I gave up on that cause GRRM has a bad habit of proving me wrong lol. I do so hope Tyrion makes it though. Smartest one of the whole damn lot of 'em.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #110 on: April 23, 2012, 12:45:44 PM »
That is my hope as well. :-)

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #111 on: April 23, 2012, 01:01:13 PM »
AS a side note - loving the wiki of Ice and Fire. Easy way to check back on stuff and learn more stuff XD

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #112 on: April 23, 2012, 01:09:34 PM »
;D On Westeros.org they even have a FAQ, where they engage to debate some of the theories (like Jon Show's parentage that Rhapsody introduced me to a few pages back) and on the forum they do discussions of individual chapters and re-reads, analysis of the chapters, sometimes it's pretty revealing to read them and how other people read them. :-)

I was actually pretty surprised to read that there's a lot of people who hate Cat and the Tullys as a whole. :o

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #113 on: April 23, 2012, 01:23:15 PM »
See the whole "Jon Snow is really a bastard Targaryen!" would annoy me. There is nothing in the books to even hint at such a thing. Just as the whole thought that Tyrion is a bastard Targaryen annoys me. The books already laid out who all is Targaryen and I'd eat my own socks if GRRM came about to announce that Jon Snow is actually a Targaryen. It just doesn't make sense in any way, shape or form. ((Correction: Just read a theory that at least makes some sense though - yeah, not sure if I believe it possible. Trying to find a time line to judge the number of years that have passed lined up with Jon's age))

That said - there sure are a lot of bastards running around. Though I suppose that is to be expected in a day and age with no contraceptives and brothels everywhere.

As for Cat and House Tully - I do like Cat. She is a strong, smart woman.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
With that said, she does show moments where the mother in her overrules practicality (like when she lets Jaime go in the hopes of an unauthorized trade for her daughters - of which one of them the Lannister's do not even have). She at least has a hell of a lot more common sense than Cersei and seemingly bigger balls than her brothers.

Edit: I'd lean more towards Jon Snow actually being the bastard son of Robert Baratheon - but that is just me.

Also, the character that seems to be the most misjudged (in my opinion): Jaime Lannister. I do not think he is the evil bastard most think he is. I think he has some honor, he's just been a pawn of his father and Cersei all of his life.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 01:46:51 PM by Iniquitous Opheliac »

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #114 on: April 23, 2012, 01:33:27 PM »
*whispers in IO's ear* Spoileh's, babe. :o

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #115 on: April 23, 2012, 01:43:40 PM »
ACK! Forgot about that... *hurries to correct*

Offline RhapsodyTopic starter

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #116 on: April 23, 2012, 02:42:51 PM »
with Baelish they get to show that he really is with the Lannisters, unless he stole the bones and just tries to play all sides, but that doesn't seem too likely to me.

Baelish didn't steal the bones. Those were the Silent Sisters who brought them to Catelyn, and it's the Silent Sisters who have the charge of the dead. If anything, he just told them where they could find the man's wife.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #117 on: April 23, 2012, 02:55:33 PM »
Think she means in the show last night. The show had Baelish delivering them to the Catelyn in Renly's camp.

Offline RhapsodyTopic starter

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #118 on: April 23, 2012, 03:08:04 PM »
I also meant the show. The two women carrying the chest were Silent Sisters.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #119 on: April 23, 2012, 03:11:57 PM »
Yet that is not how it happened in the book - at least I am nearly positive it didn't. I certainly do not remember Baelish being in Renly's camp.

Offline RhapsodyTopic starter

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #120 on: April 23, 2012, 03:25:14 PM »
It wasn't. In the books, the Silent Sisters brought the bones all the way to Winterfell.

I was just pointing out that Baelish didn't necessarily have to steal the bones on the TV show. The Sisters had already departed; all he had to do was tell them where to find Catelyn.

Offline RhapsodyTopic starter

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #121 on: April 23, 2012, 03:29:01 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
See the whole "Jon Snow is really a bastard Targaryen!" would annoy me. There is nothing in the books to even hint at such a thing.
That's the thing. There is.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Ned, Howland Reed and a few of their men found Lyanna after her kidnap at the Tower of Joy. Several men of the Kingsguard were with her including the much vaunted Sword of the Morning. Ned remembers that Lyanna died in a bed of blood, clutching a wreath of blue roses, and he promised her something before she died. This promise haunted him to his dying day.

Arya and Jon look alike, being the only ones to inherit the Stark coloring. Arya is said to be very close in looks to Lyanna.

It was also implied that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love: Rhaegar crowned her the Queen of Love and Beauty at a tournament, passing over his own wife. It was also implied that Lyanna didn't have nearly the same regard for Robert as Robert had for her; she knew he was a philanderer and, though she would have married him, did not love him nearly as much as everyone thought.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 03:36:25 PM by Rhapsody »

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #122 on: April 23, 2012, 03:30:34 PM »
Baelish didn't steal the bones. Those were the Silent Sisters who brought them to Catelyn, and it's the Silent Sisters who have the charge of the dead. If anything, he just told them where they could find the man's wife.
To be honest, it was him who presented the bones as token of some sorts, so I'm more inclined to think that the Silent Sisters were under his "charge." So it's either the Lannisters sent him with the bones or Baelish made the silent sisters believe that he was sent by the Lanisters.

And no, in the book the bones were delivered to Riverrun along with counter-terms of peace to Robb's peace terms from King's Landing by Cleos Frey (I think) and the party that was supposed to free Jaime Lannister from his captivity and help him escape.

Offline RhapsodyTopic starter

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #123 on: April 23, 2012, 03:46:24 PM »
To be honest, it was him who presented the bones as token of some sorts, so I'm more inclined to think that the Silent Sisters were under his "charge." So it's either the Lannisters sent him with the bones or Baelish made the silent sisters believe that he was sent by the Lanisters.

And no, in the book the bones were delivered to Riverrun along with counter-terms of peace to Robb's peace terms from King's Landing by Cleos Frey (I think) and the party that was supposed to free Jaime Lannister from his captivity and help him escape.

The only thing is, the Sisters are a religious order whose persons are considered inviolate. They don't work for the king, the same way nuns don't work for the leader of their countries.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #124 on: April 23, 2012, 03:49:30 PM »
Jouzi has it right - Tyrion sent the bones to Riverrun (not Renly's camp) in the hopes of freeing Jaime. However - the books do not specify if the bones ever make it back to Winterfell. Cat asks Hallis Mollen to take them back to Winterfell...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
however, the Ironborn took Moat Cailin. Add in that there is someone who vowed never to allow his bones to be buried in Winterfell.