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Author Topic: Winter is Coming...  (Read 36997 times)

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Offline Shjade

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #200 on: May 07, 2012, 09:38:34 PM »
For anyone who doesn't already read Least I Could Do regularly enough to have noticed, it's currently doing a little Game of Thrones parody arc. Enjoy!

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #201 on: May 08, 2012, 04:32:13 PM »
Thoughts as I watch the newest episode.

Oooooo, great, GREAT exchange between Theon and Rodrik Cassel! Was not in the books, but WOW.

Qhorin Halfhand may not look the part, but he certainly talks it.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Was it me or did Baelish and Lannister really realize just who was serving them?

Edit later: Apparently, they did (or Tywin at least suspects).

John Snow and Ygritte. *sigh* Was it necessary? The book way tells so much more about him than her half-escaping him tells about her.

The Dog. So very spot on.

Uh, uh, Roose Bolton WITH Robb?! :o That is... so... so very wrong. So very...
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Tywin
. ;D On that note, Roose Bolton is a bit too lively, nay?

Osha is so full of win.

The Dragons? :o What's that, I mean... it botches everything severely. How will Daenerys not think Jorah, the only person who apparently survived, did not have a hand in... oh, wait! Do I smell another shortcut? This time to Arstan Whitebeard revealing himself?

Offline Remiel

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #202 on: May 08, 2012, 11:44:34 PM »
Yeah, I think it's best for all concerned if we simply, as an audience, accept and assume that the series's script will divulge more and more from the books, until at last it bears only a passing resemblance.

What I want to know is, with GRRM being so heavily involved in the writing, when it comes time to write the next book, will he remember what he had written in the series vs. what he had written (or at least approved) for the screenplay?

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #203 on: May 09, 2012, 03:54:44 AM »
That's the thing. He doesn't seem to be writing it. He is credited as a co-executive producer and Westeros.org say that he would not be involved in the writing, save for perhaps an episode here and there. That kinda lead me to the fanfiction statement. ;D

By the way, imdb.com says GRRM enjoys role-playing games. :-)

I think I can see the shortcuts by now. ;D
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
There will be no Vargo Hoat, sad as it is. I don't even think there will be any Brave Companions either. I'm sure they will find other group for Lady Stoneheart or there actually won't be any Lady Stoneheart. The deaths can happed differently. I think that Arya won't escape, but will be present at Blackwater, which is where she'll get captured by the Dog. There will be no Astapor, Yunkai or Meereen. Dany will conquer Qarth and the Unsullied will get moved there and probably the sellswords too or maybe there will be none.

Jon will, apparently, not kill Qhorin Halfhand. Ygritte will lead him to Mance it will be made Jon's idea to seemingly turn cloak.

Sam will have to find Dragonglass on his own.

Offline Lilias

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #204 on: May 09, 2012, 04:15:15 AM »
I wouldn't want to be in Martin's place right now. His name is used to lend credence to the production, and I suspect that behind the scenes it's 'we do it this way or not at all'. Pretty much getting him to consent to the rape of his own work. :-(

Offline Beorning

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #205 on: May 09, 2012, 07:44:26 AM »
Quote from: jouzinka
I think I can see the shortcuts by now. ;D

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
There will be no Vargo Hoat, sad as it is. I don't even think there will be any Brave Companions either. I'm sure they will find other group for Lady Stoneheart or there actually won't be any Lady Stoneheart. The deaths can happed differently. I think that Arya won't escape, but will be present at Blackwater, which is where she'll get captured by the Dog. There will be no Astapor, Yunkai or Meereen. Dany will conquer Qarth and the Unsullied will get moved there and probably the sellswords too or maybe there will be none.

Jon will, apparently, not kill Qhorin Halfhand. Ygritte will lead him to Mance it will be made Jon's idea to seemingly turn cloak.

Sam will have to find Dragonglass on his own.

Okay, if they do it this way, then I'll totally drop watching the series. I understand some small changes here and there, but if they go with the changes Jouzinka suspects, then..!

Still, I hope it won't come to this:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
1. I just can't imagine Jon *not* killing Qhorin. If the show's writers were going ignore his death, they would ignore the character completely. There would be no point of him being there... I rather suspect that Jon will make his way back to Qhorin, Qhorin will realize that Ygritte presents an opportunity and that will prompt him to come up with the infiltration plan.

2. The whole episode with the dragons might simply lead to Daenerys fighting the Warlocks and the Undying.

3. Arya's plot isn't fundamentally screwed yet either. The deaths she ordered were different, but let's face it: it's not very important when exactly Tickler dies. The really important things is the third death, as it leads to Harrenhal being retaken. We'll see.

4. If the show's writers even consider dropping Daenerys conquest of Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen, they are *insane*.

I honestly hope I'm right...

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #206 on: May 09, 2012, 08:05:23 AM »
The problem is there is very limited time for each episode and only a set number of episodes in a season. All of us who have read GRRM knows his books are crammed packed with things that happen. So, if they are doing one book = one season, they are forced to make shortcuts to get the high points into the episodes.

Oh and GRRM started out as a screenwriter in Hollywood. I suspect that he is approving the shortcuts and changes that are being made.

Anyway, just like when a book is made into a movie, some things are changed and some never make it into the script. If everything made it in we'd have three hour movies every Sunday night.

Offline Beorning

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #207 on: May 09, 2012, 08:35:41 AM »
If everything made it in we'd have three hour movies every Sunday night.

... which would totally rock  ;D

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #208 on: May 09, 2012, 08:48:11 AM »
It would rock to be sure, however impossible to do LOL. Not too mention, at that point it'd just be on the big screen and not HBO - which would suck LOL.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #209 on: May 09, 2012, 10:27:22 AM »
I honestly and sincerely doubt that GRRM approves anything by this point. Personally, I think that if he cared/wanted to have a say in how the story developed, he'd be writing it himself.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Qhorin's death is important, because he had taught Jon a lot in the book, about everything, not just the Frostfangs, and most importantly the attitude he showed when Jon admitted that he'd let Ygritte go. Up until this point in the series, Qhorin is just another character and it is my belief he will just remain another character. It will probably be Mance to teach Jon a lot, making a strong point of Jon returning to the Night's Watch.

If Daenerys fights the Warlocks, she'll have a hard time going to the Houses for the visions. Honestly, this whole story arc is totally screwed up. Dany was supposed to display the Dragons in Qarth and gain money and treasures for that. She can't move anywhere now. I'm telling you, she's conquering Qarth instead of Astapor and Yunkai and will rule it instead of Meereen. And if she doesn't, then I suspect that she will only conquer and rule Meeren.

Tickler's death is meaningless in Harrenhal, but it is VERY important for the person that kills him at the third book (and especially the manner). I honestly hope they go ahead with Weasel Soup. Otherwise Arya is absolutely not worth of valar morghulis, in my opinion.

Also... Harrenhal being retaken, but by whom? Roose Bolton is apparently with Robb and we haven't seen a glimpse of Vargo Hoat yet either. *shakes fist* I want my thappireth! On another note, I can see Robb easily taking Harrenhal now. He apparently won't go to the west - this Talisa chick from Volantis will apparently comfort him just as well as Jeyne Westerling would. We're not seeing Riverrun, folks. :-\

I don't mind the writers changing events or even placement of people or thinning the number of characters and repositioning the characters on the map. What I do mind and I mind it greatly is when they change the personalities of the characters and especially if they dumb characters down to make other characters appear smarter. Book Arya would have feigned illiteracy when asked to fetch the book. Book Daenerys would have coldly informed the Spice King that helping or not helping her would be repaid in kind, instead of going all Viserys on him and repeating her brother's illusions how the people will rise for their rightful king, duh. Book Catelyn definitely would have swallowed the "I told you not to trust a Greyjoy," especially in the presence of other people. She might have said it with a look, she might have told Robb when they were alone, but she absolutely would not undermine his authority like that. She is way too smart for that.

Three hours of Game of Thrones every week would totally rock. ;D

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #210 on: May 09, 2012, 11:12:49 AM »
Found this and thought to share...

It seems GRRM knows there are cuts and isn't upset about them at all.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/04/04/game-of-thrones-hbo-george-r-r-martin/

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #211 on: May 09, 2012, 11:25:27 AM »
As if publicly he would have said otherwise. ;) Moreover he talks about changes like Targaryens not having purple eyes and Moon Door in the Eyrie being on the floor and not in the wall and even before the first season started.

I understand the need for changes, I'm just not too happy about those that were made, since I think it could have been done better with less consequences to the characters. ;D

Offline Beorning

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #212 on: May 09, 2012, 01:55:00 PM »
I honestly and sincerely doubt that GRRM approves anything by this point. Personally, I think that if he cared/wanted to have a say in how the story developed, he'd be writing it himself.

Hey, he has still two volumes of the book version to write ;) He cannot do everything himself.

Quote
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Qhorin's death is important, because he had taught Jon a lot in the book, about everything, not just the Frostfangs, and most importantly the attitude he showed when Jon admitted that he'd let Ygritte go. Up until this point in the series, Qhorin is just another character and it is my belief he will just remain another character. It will probably be Mance to teach Jon a lot, making a strong point of Jon returning to the Night's Watch.

If Daenerys fights the Warlocks, she'll have a hard time going to the Houses for the visions. Honestly, this whole story arc is totally screwed up. Dany was supposed to display the Dragons in Qarth and gain money and treasures for that. She can't move anywhere now. I'm telling you, she's conquering Qarth instead of Astapor and Yunkai and will rule it instead of Meereen. And if she doesn't, then I suspect that she will only conquer and rule Meeren.

Tickler's death is meaningless in Harrenhal, but it is VERY important for the person that kills him at the third book (and especially the manner). I honestly hope they go ahead with Weasel Soup. Otherwise Arya is absolutely not worth of valar morghulis, in my opinion.

Also... Harrenhal being retaken, but by whom? Roose Bolton is apparently with Robb and we haven't seen a glimpse of Vargo Hoat yet either. *shakes fist* I want my thappireth! On another note, I can see Robb easily taking Harrenhal now. He apparently won't go to the west - this Talisa chick from Volantis will apparently comfort him just as well as Jeyne Westerling would. We're not seeing Riverrun, folks. :-\

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I'm not saying that Qhorin's importance won't be diminished  :-\ Still, for Jon, killing him is a huge point in character development. I just can't imagine it being dropped... It's just too big.

Regarding Daenerys and the Undying - it still can work. Let's see... she will investigate who stole the dragons. Eventually, she'll learn it was Pyat. She'll confront him - and he will say: "Aha! Want your dragons? Come and talk with the Undying!". Cue: the Houses and the visions...

When it comes to Arya... you know what I'm afraid of? That the writers will get the bright idea of having Arya send Jaqen after *Tywin*. Now that would a way to screw up the plot...

And regarding Robb and that Volantis chick - I suspect she may simply be Jeyne under a changed name, just Yara is Asha. Maybe the writers decided that it would be confusing to have a Jeyne and a Jaime in the show... *shrugs* Anyway, we *need* Riverrun! Or... will Edmure Tully be written out of the plot, too? But, without him, we won't have the, uhm, wedding... *gets headache*

Quote
I don't mind the writers changing events or even placement of people or thinning the number of characters and repositioning the characters on the map. What I do mind and I mind it greatly is when they change the personalities of the characters and especially if they dumb characters down to make other characters appear smarter. Book Arya would have feigned illiteracy when asked to fetch the book. Book Daenerys would have coldly informed the Spice King that helping or not helping her would be repaid in kind, instead of going all Viserys on him and repeating her brother's illusions how the people will rise for their rightful king, duh. Book Catelyn definitely would have swallowed the "I told you not to trust a Greyjoy," especially in the presence of other people. She might have said it with a look, she might have told Robb when they were alone, but she absolutely would not undermine his authority like that. She is way too smart for that.

Totally agreed, especially on the Daenerys part. The Spice King scene was just... wrong.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #213 on: May 09, 2012, 03:13:56 PM »
As if publicly he would have said otherwise. ;)

If he didn't approve he could walk out and sue HBO and the various other members of the production.  I think, as a former scriptwriter he knows what has to be done to keep the series popular and easy to produce for a different medium.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #214 on: May 09, 2012, 04:21:31 PM »
There are two areas of interest. Martin sold he rights to the books. He is involved in the production. But, as the article from IO reveals, he absolutely does _not_ have a veto right (I would actually be rather surprised if he had), or at least didn't have it in the casting and before the show started. If he walked out of the production of the thing, the series would still continue to be made as they'd find another producer. His involvement in it isn't as essential as believed. If he somehow miraculously managed to actually stop the production, he'd be sued by HBO for lost profit, most likely.

Moreover... have you ever heard an actor/director/producer - whatever - say that they were/are working on a project that is really really bad, but they are working on it anyway, because it will generate some money? No? Well, as it happens, neither have I. XD The only instance I did was when Halle Berry received golden raspberry for Catwoman and said that for the future she'll recommend her agent to read the script before accepting a role on her behalf. ;D It's part of the propagation and advertisement, part of the hype about the thing. Nobody will ever admit the thing they work on has a fault, much less say it's mediocre at best. In the same light, GRRM could hardly say publicly a week before the show started that the people who were doing it totally botched it (not that I think they did), if only for the risk that people would not watch it and he would lose the money he had paid for production.

Just my personal point of view, though. ;)
Hey, he has still two volumes of the book version to write ;) He cannot do everything himself.
We gotta clone him, so that he can do both. ;D

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I'm not saying that Qhorin's importance won't be diminished  :-\ Still, for Jon, killing him is a huge point in character development. I just can't imagine it being dropped... It's just too big.

Regarding Daenerys and the Undying - it still can work. Let's see... she will investigate who stole the dragons. Eventually, she'll learn it was Pyat. She'll confront him - and he will say: "Aha! Want your dragons? Come and talk with the Undying!". Cue: the Houses and the visions...

When it comes to Arya... you know what I'm afraid of? That the writers will get the bright idea of having Arya send Jaqen after *Tywin*. Now that would a way to screw up the plot...

And regarding Robb and that Volantis chick - I suspect she may simply be Jeyne under a changed name, just Yara is Asha. Maybe the writers decided that it would be confusing to have a Jeyne and a Jaime in the show... *shrugs* Anyway, we *need* Riverrun! Or... will Edmure Tully be written out of the plot, too? But, without him, we won't have the, uhm, wedding... *gets headache*
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Personally, I think that bigger thing for Jon is to turn the cloak and then get back again. They already scraped the thing of Jon letting Ygritte go, which spoke volumes of his character. There's no need or use for him getting back to Qhorin to tell him: "She escaped me and we got lost." They are really fond of making Jon appear as a halfwit idiot, in the retrospect...
"D'you wanna lead? THEN LEARN TO FOLLOW!"
"I hope you make a better ranger than you did a steward." ugh

He will be with Mance for a while, so I think that the influence that Qhorin had on Snow will get dispersed between Mance, Ygritte and perhaps Magnar (if he makes the screen).

We'll see how it works out with the Dragons. I honestly don't think that Pyat would have a motive and certainly less of one than all those greedy citizens of Qarth.

Yes, I'm afraid of that as well. Tywin or Gregor Clegane, both so wrong. :-\

Well, Robb is halfway in the West, having won at Oxcross. Tywin will march on King's Landing - they don't have the time to have him march on the Riverrun raids and then back, in my opinion. Robb will receive the word about Bran and Rickon and he will turn to march on the North. At the Twins he will stop to honor the Freys with the wedding to let him pass, even though he will not be marrying a Frey. No bedding, but Red Wedding still happens. If it's too quick, they will have him stop at Harrenhal, since it's already a set built - saving money. I won't miss Edmure, though I will miss Brynden. :-\

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #215 on: May 09, 2012, 06:17:26 PM »
An actor working on a project and doing solely for the money and admitting it?  I have.  And several after the projects too.

Did you know that Sir Alec Guiness, he of Obi-Wan fame from the original trilogy HATED it?  He hated the fact that it made him millions, rather than his 'respectable' work in Theatre.

I think it's more middle of the road, Martin sold the book rights knowing that stuff would be changed.  He also knows that (as a former scriptwriter) stuff has to be changed, because most TV watchers are not going to be as interested in the novels or as big a fan of his stories as you all seem to be, and there's a lot of stuff he likely considers expendable.  Just because YOU think it's important, he may not (Especially since he prefers how the world is being shaped by the players, rather than the players growing or changing.)  Is he completely happy?  Not likely, but at least he retains some control as to what to keep, and what to cut.  And he's making money hand over fist because of it.

Offline DeMalachine

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #216 on: May 09, 2012, 07:05:01 PM »
Did you know that Sir Alec Guiness, he of Obi-Wan fame from the original trilogy HATED it?  He hated the fact that it made him millions, rather than his 'respectable' work in Theatre.

"These are not the dues I'm looking for..."

Offline Remiel

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #217 on: May 10, 2012, 12:12:40 AM »
Quote from: jouzinka
I won't miss Edmure, though I will miss Brynden. :-\

I was going to say!  The Blackfish is a pretty damn interesting character, and pretty integral to the story.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #218 on: May 10, 2012, 02:47:14 AM »
An actor working on a project and doing solely for the money and admitting it?  I have.  And several after the projects too.

Did you know that Sir Alec Guiness, he of Obi-Wan fame from the original trilogy HATED it?  He hated the fact that it made him millions, rather than his 'respectable' work in Theatre.
The article IO posted, though, was not published after the series. It was published a week before it started. If anyone thinks anyone involved in the production would have said that anything in the series was bad that early before the start, I'm not taking this opinion from you, guys, but I don't.
I think it's more middle of the road, Martin sold the book rights knowing that stuff would be changed.  He also knows that (as a former scriptwriter) stuff has to be changed, because most TV watchers are not going to be as interested in the novels or as big a fan of his stories as you all seem to be, and there's a lot of stuff he likely considers expendable.  Just because YOU think it's important, he may not (Especially since he prefers how the world is being shaped by the players, rather than the players growing or changing.)  Is he completely happy?  Not likely, but at least he retains some control as to what to keep, and what to cut.  And he's making money hand over fist because of it.
He may not, but I believe I still get to have my opinion, even though it might differ from Mr. Martin's, just as I, for example, think that in GoT the book he tried way too hard to persuade the reader that it was indeed Tyrion who sent the knife after Bran Stark. He apparently doesn't, since all the instances where it was suggested made the book.

I was going to say!  The Blackfish is a pretty damn interesting character, and pretty integral to the story.
I think... that if we were to see Brynden with Robb, we would have. Instead, Catelyn did not meet him at the Bloody Gate and did not meet him on her way back from the Eyrie, didn't come back with him and he's apparently not around Robb. In the books he's "only" important to Robb for tempering him with counsel and for leading the outriders. When Robb returns to Riverrun, Brynden remains behind to hold it, but nothing of that great an importance happens there.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Brynden escapes and Edmure is taken captive.
But in my opinion, Edmure is not making the story and it won't be him attending the Red Wedding either, which makes both of them very much expendable characters.

Offline Beorning

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #219 on: May 10, 2012, 08:54:44 AM »
About Edmure and Riverrun:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I still think that the series needs Edmure, if the Freys' betrayal is to happen in any way similar to the novel. In Storm of Swords, the Freys managed to surprise Robb and his men, as there was a wedding going on and everyone let their guard down. So, we need someone to get married in the Freys' castles... and I don't think it would make sense for Robb to organise his wedding to Jeyne / Talysa there. I can't see him going to Walder Frey and saying: "Hey, I promised to marry your daughter, but you know what? I changed my mind. But here's an idea: how about you throwing a wedding party for me at your castles? Won't you be honoured by paying to see me marry someone completely different than your daughter?". Come on :)

The way I see it? We may get to see Riverrun... in Season 3. I really don't think that the writers plan on doing both Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords in Season 2...

Offline Oniya

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #220 on: May 11, 2012, 10:17:00 PM »
Possible spoiler for episode 9.  Funny as hell, though.

http://notyourmommascookie.com/2012/04/game-of-thrones-cake-pops/

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #221 on: May 12, 2012, 05:51:52 AM »
About Edmure and Riverrun:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I still think that the series needs Edmure, if the Freys' betrayal is to happen in any way similar to the novel. In Storm of Swords, the Freys managed to surprise Robb and his men, as there was a wedding going on and everyone let their guard down. So, we need someone to get married in the Freys' castles... and I don't think it would make sense for Robb to organise his wedding to Jeyne / Talysa there. I can't see him going to Walder Frey and saying: "Hey, I promised to marry your daughter, but you know what? I changed my mind. But here's an idea: how about you throwing a wedding party for me at your castles? Won't you be honoured by paying to see me marry someone completely different than your daughter?". Come on :)

The way I see it? We may get to see Riverrun... in Season 3. I really don't think that the writers plan on doing both Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords in Season 2...
Is it bad that I actually think that the arc _is_ idiot enough to pass? O:)

But I will not give up hope.

Offline Fairehawke

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #222 on: May 12, 2012, 01:03:07 PM »
Game of Thrones, Season 2 Episode 1, tonight!

Who's with me?

I just recently got into game of thrones. In love with this show <3

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #223 on: May 14, 2012, 06:42:35 AM »
* jouzinka has just seen the last episode.

*headdesks* What is it with all that talking between Tywin and Arya? All the time I was thinking to myself that he was just drawing her out to confirm the suspicion that she's indeed Arya, but then why telling her: "If you're to pose as a lowborn girl, you've got to sound like one?" o.O And WTF Arya telling him a thing about Visenya and Rhaenys? :o That's like branding a "I'm a Lady" on her forehead.

Oona Chaplin is really cute, though. :-)

Offline Beorning

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #224 on: May 14, 2012, 04:22:22 PM »
First things first: I told you that it was Pyat that took the dragons!!! ;D

It's just as I suspected: the whole dragon kidnapping plot is just a more roundabout way of getting Daenerys to the House of the Undying. Maybe the writers felt that Daenerys' story in Clash of Kings was too low-key and wanted to spice it up...

What's going on with Arya's plot, though... I have no idea. And I'm similarly confused regarding Jon and Ygritte.