Topic: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games

[LunarSage]

I thought I'd create a thread to continue discussion from the Metagaming thread that we derailed with our talk regarding system games.

Actually I think a thread to talk shop with fellow RPG Geeks could be fun! 

[Callie Del Noire]

Better toss up the ground rules of No hate.. before the 'Yer system sucks.. mine rockerz'.

I have issues with a few editions that have come out in the last few years with a lack of 'backward compatiableness'
-Such as DnD 4e, Shadowrun 4e, Warhammer 3e (not as bad as the first two but...), the Storyteller system (which I think lost out for a few reasons)

[LunarSage]

That's a good idea, actually.  Alright, so no hating on any systems unless you do so with respectful criticism and don't let it devolve into slamming a particular game.

Awwwww I love Shadowrun 4e! 

[Kunoichi]

I rather like certain parts of D&D 4e, myself, though I will admit I haven't been following developments in that system very much. ^^; I'm definitely a 3.5 girl, preferring it over even Pathfinder as a system.

Thankfully, since Pathfinder is backwards-compatible, I can have my cake and eat it, too.

[Callie Del Noire]

Awwwww I love Shadowrun 4e! 

I love/hate it. It's harder to make the same level of PC skill with the new spread of skills and 2 extra attributes, neither of which really did a lot to greatly improve the game setting. The backstory/campaign setting have as usual been very good quality. I will say it is a better update over all than moving from 1st edition to 2nd edition SR which crippled physical adepts (my favorite type)

[LunarSage]

I like Pathfinder because it fixed a lot of the problems 3.5 had (Undead and Constructs can now be critted, Clerics get Healing Bursts, -everyone- gets cool stuff as they level up... it's actually desirable to stay in one class all the way to 20, Smite Evil is now freaking -awesome-, Rage and Bardic Songs are now per round rather than per day, Sorcerer Bloodlines, Wizard Schools and much more!) 

[Callie Del Noire]

I like Pathfinder because it fixed a lot of the problems 3.5 had (Undead and Constructs can now be critted, Clerics get Healing Bursts, -everyone- gets cool stuff as they level up... it's actually desirable to stay in one class all the way to 20, Smite Evil is now freaking -awesome-, Rage and Bardic Songs are now per round rather than per day, Sorcerer Bloodlines, Wizard Schools and much more!) 

Oh yes, I like the Pathfinder system a lot. I bought 4e and read through it extensively over a watchstander's weekend (ie.. I had 2 12 hour watches over a weekend.) And decided it would be at least an edition (or two) before I got back to a DnD that I'd be buying again. Two weeks later they put out the Alpha version and I fell in love. It's not perfect but it's a LOT better than 3e in many ways. Most importantly is the fact that you can be a basic/core class and never have a reason to change and they made Fighters/Rogues/Sorcerers relevant again at higher levels.

I do a lot of posts, comments on my blog on Pathfinder. This years free RPG day module from Paizo is a blast.

Personally I think Channelling and Bloodline powers are the best things they came up with.. and I think the Oracle's curse is the biggest mistake there.

[Kunoichi]

I'll admit, the main thing I don't like about Pathfinder is what they did to the various combat maneuvers. ^^; Most of them were already pretty weak options to begin with in 3.5, barring Grapple and Bull Rush, and the new system in place in Pathfinder makes them mechanically even weaker, from what I've seen.  Combine that with the fact that nobody I game with locally has anything other than 3.5, and...

I do admit that I like the setup they've got for playing as members of monstrous races, though.  It's definitely a lot more coherent and sensible than Level Adjustment.

Though, speaking of playing as members of monstrous races...  Hmm.  Well, what are everyone's feelings on homebrew?  I stumbled across this one homebrew monster class a week or two ago that I've been really wanting to try, myself. ^^

[Myrleena]

I'm going to keep my involvement in this thread to a minimum because of previous experiences with such.  I'll preface that this is my opinion, with my experiences that have caused it to evolve as such.

Every system I've ever seen has been broken in various ways, giving ways for people who want every ounce of power out of it to shatter the normal power curves.  Some of the systems even seem to compete and raise the power curve between different supplements.  For the record, I run Anima: Beyond Fantasy, Hero System 5e Revised, and Pathfinder.  The last is the most common system.

In the last, I commonly see people say that one class or another dominates the game.  Primarily Wizard or Cleric.  My response is simple.  I have never run into a situation that a thinking, decent GM with a decent amount of system mastery can't fix.  As long as you know where to look, or what to look at, you can deal with everything that the players throw at you.  That doesn't mean that I don't think some things are broken.  They are.  But I've never seen a mage that couldn't be squashed by accident.  Or a non-magic class that felt useless, except when the player was utterly incompetent.

But, as per normal, this is my opinion.

And yes, I love Pathfinder.  That's why I primarily run it.

[LunarSage]

Some of the systems even seem to compete and raise the power curve between different supplements.

RIFTS was infamous for this.  Every new sourcebook that came out seemed like it was trying to "outdo" the last.  (RIFTS Worldbook: South America was a great example of this, as was Phase World)

[Callie Del Noire]

RIFTS was infamous for this.  Every new sourcebook that came out seemed like it was trying to "outdo" the last.  (RIFTS Worldbook: South America was a great example of this, as was Phase World)

Oh yeah.. Cosmic Knights.. eek!

[Black Howling]

I'm going to keep my involvement in this thread to a minimum because of previous experiences with such.  I'll preface that this is my opinion, with my experiences that have caused it to evolve as such.

Every system I've ever seen has been broken in various ways, giving ways for people who want every ounce of power out of it to shatter the normal power curves.  Some of the systems even seem to compete and raise the power curve between different supplements.  For the record, I run Anima: Beyond Fantasy, Hero System 5e Revised, and Pathfinder.  The last is the most common system.

In the last, I commonly see people say that one class or another dominates the game.  Primarily Wizard or Cleric.  My response is simple.  I have never run into a situation that a thinking, decent GM with a decent amount of system mastery can't fix.  As long as you know where to look, or what to look at, you can deal with everything that the players throw at you.  That doesn't mean that I don't think some things are broken.  They are.  But I've never seen a mage that couldn't be squashed by accident.  Or a non-magic class that felt useless, except when the player was utterly incompetent.

But, as per normal, this is my opinion.

And yes, I love Pathfinder.  That's why I primarily run it.

You spoke beautiful music! Claps hands grandiosely! I sometimes have the hardest time finding the proper way to word what you just said about the class area.

[Myrleena]

Yes, well...the reason I avoid topics like this, most of the time, is because people turn it into a debate.  And I can't debate worth beans.

[Kuje]

The only reason I didn't pick up 4e D&D is because I have 1e, 2e, and 3/3.5e and I just refused to start collecting books for another D&D system. So, now Pathfinder is also my favorite. Plus I'm a huge collector of D&D worlds, which is why I have a full collection of Realms sourcebooks (except 4e Realms material, because I don't like what Wizards did to the setting, it isn't the same setting to me.), Planescape, Spelljammer, some Dlance, and most of the Ravenloft sourcebooks. Now, as I said, PF is my new obsession/collection.

I'm still active on a Realms board/site where some of the game designers and authors are willing to post to anyone who is civil to them.

But I have tons of other sourcebooks for Shadowrun, probably not 4e? Shadowrun since most of my material is from the 90's. Otherwise, I've picked up some GURPS over the years, mostly as material to read because they're fun to books to read.

[Brandon]

In my opinion Pathfinder is the best game for fantasy roleplaying. Having gone through the system change back when going from 2nd edition to third I disliked the idea of going from 3rd to 4th (especially after I played it) but then Pathfinder Alpha was released. Finally someone updated the system I was playing, no major changes, no complete overhauls, and no bullshit. Just a nice rules update, that was the moment that I seriously began supporting pathfinder

By itself its a great system with very few problems that a thinking GM cant handle but what really makes me hardcore support pathfinder is the Paizo staff. From day 1 they have always engaged with the community and made me feel like I matter to them.

For me, I  could praise the system and company till I was blue in the face and it could never be enough

Anyway, the other three system games that Im really big into are Exalted 2nd edition, Scion (which has a ton of issues and needs house ruling bad but its still a blast to play), and the New world of darkness line (primarily Werewolf: The forsaken).

Right now Exalted is the big one, mostly because Im in a pretty active chat game as a Sidereal and the other Sidereals are on a lot. I just wish the GMs were on a lot more so we could actually get things done

[errantwandering]

I've found 4E DND to be a lot of fun for once off games, because it's quick, easy, and has lots of explosions, but it has never seemed customizable enough to really last through a full campaign.  Systems like Shadowrun or the Fate system by Evil Hat Games (Don't Rest Your Head, Dresden Files, etc) always seem to be able to last longer with a group.

[Brandon]

I've found 4E DND to be a lot of fun for once off games, because it's quick, easy, and has lots of explosions, but it has never seemed customizable enough to really last through a full campaign.  Systems like Shadowrun or the Fate system by Evil Hat Games (Don't Rest Your Head, Dresden Files, etc) always seem to be able to last longer with a group.

Dresden files does seem to be pretty awesome. Ive had the book for ages but Ive never found a game to play in it. Its kind of like one of those games I would love to play but never have the chance to

[Kunoichi]

Though, speaking of playing as members of monstrous races...  Hmm.  Well, what are everyone's feelings on homebrew?  I stumbled across this one homebrew monster class a week or two ago that I've been really wanting to try, myself. ^^

So...  Nobody has any opinions on homebrew, then? ^^; The well-done homebrew can be pretty awesome, in my experience...

[Kuje]

So...  Nobody has any opinions on homebrew, then? ^^; The well-done homebrew can be pretty awesome, in my experience...

I've been a player in some home brew settings. They have their pros and cons, just like every published setting. That said, some times homebrew settings are nice to RP in because it could be easier to add new elements to them, which could sometimes be a pain in published settings. Plus, homebrew settings don't have the problem of being blown up, which happens a lot in published settings.

[errantwandering]

Partially homebrewing is also fun...like adding a stunt mechanic to 3.5 DND in order to encourage players to buckle their swashes, rather than just play it safe, stand in one place, and roll an attack every single turn, repeating ad naseum.

[Kunoichi]

I rather like things like this, myself.  Homebrew classes and races can offer up some pretty cool mechanics, too. ^^

And the one I linked to is a rather fun way to play a Silver Dragon, I daresay.

[Brandon]

So...  Nobody has any opinions on homebrew, then? ^^; The well-done homebrew can be pretty awesome, in my experience...

My views on monster characters are complex because I love the roleplay aspects but hate just about every mechanical aspect Ive seen thus far. For example 3.x level adjustments were horrendous on any scale past about a level, one thing I would always point out is a proper encounter will be CR would be equal to 1 person (considering CR was equal to using up 1/4 of a 4 member party's resources). However level adjustment + hit dice were also equal to Equivilent character level. So you had two mathmatical forumla's that gave seperate answers

CR = ECL
ECL = LA + HD

To complicate things ECL was almost always much higher then CR and you could even be Epic level without actually being anywhere near Epic power.

Anyway, I think there is always a place for homebrewed settings in campaigns. Obviously creations made by a DM make them care about it all the more but at the same time ive seen so many god awful homebrewed settings that Im very wary of them

[Kunoichi]

Yeah, similar sentiments to those gave rise to this particular little homebrew project that I stumbled across about a week ago. ^^ It's been shut down, unfortunately, but there's still enough there to fill out a Monster Manual or three, and it's a much better alternative to eating a bunch of LA and Racial HD.

Actually, one thing I'd love to try would be something like a Planescape game, or some other of the stranger, more monster-friendly settings of D&D, where all the players would have to choose a homebrew class and/or race to play.  Admittedly, whoever ran it would probably have to give each class and/or race a careful examination to make sure that nothing overpowered was put into play, but it still strikes me as a fun idea.

[Black Howling]

Another awesome thing about Pathfinder. No LA. So if everyone plays monsters, you can just play monsters.

[Kunoichi]

Yeah, but you can't play an Illithid or a Beholder in Pathfinder.