Coronavirus - are you afraid?

[gaggedLouise]

The USA has today hit and passed the horrific landmark of a quarter of a million dead. 

And 185.000 new infection cases.

Trump's response: he uses the hope of a mass vaccination a few months ahead to try to blackmail New York, ostensibly targeting governor Cuomo but essentially also the courts and news outlets that have kept an eye on him. CNN parpahrased this as "they're not gonna get any mass vaccination in New York, 'cause they hate me there". That's fairly accurate.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1327638502280925184

Incredible.

[Dashenka]

That's not really what he said.

He said NY wanted to validate the vaccins first before distributing. Which is the reason why the government won't sent the vaccin out to NY.

[Dhi]

Do you feel like there's a difference between a threat to withhold the vaccine from New York for political reasons and planning to not send the vaccine to New York because of state plans to scrutinize the vaccine?

Do you believe it's conducive to a plan to scrutinize the vaccine to send none at all to New York?

Of course it's "not really what he said" because he gets behind the podium and dribbles out word soup, contradicting himself moment to moment. The intention he's telegraphing, however, is clear. We have seen him repeatedly attempt to hold blue states hostage. Thankfully, it won't be up to him.

[Dashenka]

Alright.

[Oniya]

Of course it's "not really what he said" because he gets behind the podium and dribbles out word soup, contradicting himself moment to moment. The intention he's telegraphing, however, is clear. We have seen him repeatedly attempt to hold blue states hostage. Thankfully, it won't be up to him.

I had to find it again, but there was a really enlightening article by Australian journalist, Lenore Taylor, about how Trump's alarming incoherence impedes reporting on his statements and actions.

[Dhi]

Alright.

It's not alright, and that's why he's a one term president.

[Dashenka]

Okay. I stand corrected. I should have said 'you are right'.

I'm sorry.

[Oniya]

Some brave soul over at Rev actually did a transcription of the speech.

This appears to be the relevant part:

President Donald Trump: (08:33)
Again, this process is starting right away. Millions of doses will soon be going out the door. They’re all ready, waiting for that final approval. As soon as April, the vaccine will be available to the entire general population with the exception of places like New York State, where, for political reasons, the governor decided to say, and you know, I don’t think it’s good politically, I think it’s very bad from a health standpoint, but he wants to take his time with the vaccine. He doesn’t trust where the vaccine’s coming from. These are coming from the greatest companies anywhere in the world, greatest labs in the world, but he doesn’t trust the fact that it’s this White House, this administration, so we won’t be delivering it to New York until we have authorization to do so and that pains me to say that.

President Donald Trump: (09:22)
This is a very successful, amazing vaccine at 90% and more, but the governor, Governor Cuomo, will have to let us know when he’s ready for it, otherwise we, can’t be delivering it to a state that won’t be giving it to its people immediately. And I know the people of New York very well. I know they want it. So the governor will let us know when he’s ready. He’s had some very bad editorials recently about this statement and what’s happened with respect to nursing homes and his handling of nursing homes and I hope he doesn’t handle this as badly as he’s handled the nursing homes,

[Dashenka]

I'm probably stupid but isn't that both the same thing?

Cuomo doesn't want the vaccin right away because he doesn't trust it. If that's true, which I don't know, is that Trump's responsibility? Or the governor's?

Why wouldn't you trust a vaccin when it's finally ready to be distributed?

[TheVillain]

To be fair, as I recall technically all Cuomo said was that he wasn't going to trust any Vaccine that only had Trump's word that it worked.

Still fucked up what Trump did though.

[Dhi]

I'm probably stupid but isn't that both the same thing?

Cuomo doesn't want the vaccin right away because he doesn't trust it. If that's true, which I don't know, is that Trump's responsibility? Or the governor's?

Why wouldn't you trust a vaccin when it's finally ready to be distributed?

At the time when Cuomo said he wouldn't trust a Trump vaccine, President and Governor were feuding over the bogus hydroxychloroquine cure Trump pushed. It was entirely reasonable at the time to suspect a rushed vaccine would be similar snake oil motivated by politics and personal profit.

There are hospitals in rural communities here which were early adopters of hydroxychloroquine. These hospitals were saddled with a useless drug which cannot treat Covid. Because treating Covid became their only business, several have declared bankruptcy and another is in the process of shutting down, ensuring that the rural communities they served now have no hospital.

[Fox Lokison]

Unsurprising how Trump's rush to open the country and push a "miracle cure" backfired and cost everyone around him. What a shocker. /s

I wouldn't trust him or any vaccine he promotes either, after the things he's suggested. Not that I won't trust the vaccine overall for other reasons... just definitely would want to do my own research first instead of just believing Trump, that's for sure.

[Dashenka]

There's 3 potential vaccins in the final phases of testing. One of them has already begun vaccinating (Sputnik), another said they can start vaccinating as early as january. (AstraZeneca).

So I think April is a careful bid by Trump.

[Dhi]

I'm very interested in the developments with the Sputnik vaccine, but even the scientific community here had a knee-jerk reaction to it and it's difficult to get information not tainted by a Cold War agendas.

We're going to need vaccines which are effective in immunocompromised individuals, and unfortunately Pfizer's vaccine does not fill that role.

[Dashenka]

I've posted a link from the BBC I think on the previous page regarding the Sputnik progress. It looks really promising. Not really interested in what the US scientific community has to say about it. If anybody seriously believes that Russia would risk mass casualties over a vaccin they need to get checked.

No idea about Pfizer. Heard they had some problems transporting the stuff?


But a vaccin is not a cure. You can't cure a flu, you can't cure covid. You can vaccinate against both of them but you can't cure them.

[Dhi]

Yes, I saw your link. The 20 person study has had plenty of time to ferment and was the justification for some of the concern over Sputnik efficacy weeks back. I'm looking forward to results from the multi-national study at this point. That should better illustrate how Sputnik can best meet the needs of a world which really must cooperate on all fronts to beat this pandemic. We need to be listening to all science irrespective of politics.

Producing and distributing the Pfizer vaccine will take a few months as expected. My own issues with it is that the mRNA mechanism makes it ineffective in immunocompromised individuals, and whether it can actually block transmission or merely protect the vaccinated person remains inconclusive.

[Dashenka]

We need to be listening to all science irrespective of politics.

I agree.

[Oniya]

In one of my past jobs, I worked (computer desk) at a company that was researching an HIV/AIDS vaccine.  I only barely understand half of the science, but I always kept my ears open.  Vaccine testing is intense stuff - the COVID studies are understandably rushing the process.  My problem isn't with the timetable at all.

We should be listening to the scientists as to what's effective and when it'll be ready - not someone who has perpetuated ideas that are demonstrably counter-science. 

The other concern I have about a vaccine is the number of people that have said that they will refuse it - on theories ranging from 'GAWD will proTECT me!' to 'Bill Gates is using the vaccine to insert tracking microchips into everyone who gets it!'  The only reason that antivaxxers are able to escape diseases like polio and diphtheria is that most of the population gets those vaccines.  If we have 30% of the country refusing a COVID vaccine, then we're still going to have problems.

(By the way, I've seen the hypos that they use to chip cats.  There's no way you're going to pass that off as a 'simple vaccination'.  Fucking huge.)

[TheGlyphstone]

Even if the Pfizer vaccine doesn't work for immunocompromised people, mass vaccination is still good to protect them via herd immunity. Like most other vaccines, basically. So even if it's not 100% perfect, it can still go a long way to protecting thrle vulnerable.

[Dashenka]

Even if the Pfizer vaccine doesn't work for immunocompromised people, mass vaccination is still good to protect them via herd immunity. Like most other vaccines, basically. So even if it's not 100% perfect, it can still go a long way to protecting thrle vulnerable.

Does a vaccin make you immune though?

If it does, those antivaxxers Oniya mentioned should eventually die out as they get all the diseases and the normal people don't. They also think you get autism from vaccins. So they'll be microchip tracked people with autism.

Also, is it really 30% of the country?? That's a lot of vegetables.

[Dhi]

Even if the Pfizer vaccine doesn't work for immunocompromised people, mass vaccination is still good to protect them via herd immunity. Like most other vaccines, basically. So even if it's not 100% perfect, it can still go a long way to protecting thrle vulnerable.

We're not sure if that's true. The Pfizer vaccine may only confer personal immunity and enable a person to remain a carrier for a short time. If that's the case, then the Novavax and Sanofi vaccines are more promising for protecting the immunocompromised. This is the multi-tiered approach epidemiologists have been talking about.

[gaggedLouise]

Does a vaccin make you immune though?

If it does, those antivaxxers Oniya mentioned should eventually die out as they get all the diseases and the normal people don't. They also think you get autism from vaccins. So they'll be microchip tracked people with autism.

Also, is it really 30% of the country?? That's a lot of vegetables.

At this point, we don't know if any of these vaccines will actually make people immune for life. Probably some of them will, but even scientists don't know at this point -  they don't even know for sure if persons who have been through a covid infection and survived it are really immune for life, or just for a year or something.

[Oniya]

Does a vaccin make you immune though?

If it does, those antivaxxers Oniya mentioned should eventually die out as they get all the diseases and the normal people don't. They also think you get autism from vaccins. So they'll be microchip tracked people with autism.

Also, is it really 30% of the country?? That's a lot of vegetables.

Vaccines don't make you immune.  But if you don't catch the disease, then you don't spread it to those with weaker immune systems.  Sometimes it involves introducing a weaker strain of a live virus (such as the cowpox/smallpox situation that was the origin of vaca-cination), and you want to spend a few days away from susceptible folks.  Your immune system creates antibodies in response, but they often go away after a while (which is why you should get a tetanus booster every 5-10 years.)

30% is my estimate, based on the size of the Trump rallies, the percentage of the popular vote that Trump got, and the rampant conspiracy theories that are even now getting a voice in Congress.  (That one QAnon candidate actually got elected, and is already telling her fellow freshmen that masks are stupid and COVID isn't something to be concerned about.)  While it might be off, I fear I might have been too conservative.

[Haibane]

Corona viruses are a form of influenza, so the population will need a vaccine shot every year, maybe in this case more than once a year.

In which case the anti-vax crowd will make or break this;

Case 1) The anti-vax crowd is so numerous that vaccinating some of the population is not enough and the virus continues to spread.

Case 2) The anti-vaxxers die off because they are dumb idiots leaving themselves open to the virus while the vaccinated population shrugs and goes about their lives.

I have no idea which of Case 1 or Case 2 it will be.

[Fox Lokison]

Well, studies of COVID have shown it has multiple different strains and allows for reinfection - somewhat similar to a common cold - so that means that vaccines would be more likely for the most common strains, to impact the highest number of people, and prevent as much reinfection as possible. That's the go-to strategy in this kind of thing. Mitigation, not eradication.

Though as someone with immunocompromised parents, and me being at least with a weak immune system (if not a compromised one), I'm definitely in agreement with Dhi on that front.