Steve Jobs is watching you

[Lilias]

Apple seeking to patent spyware

I think my instinctive dislike for anything Apple is growing more and more justified

[Oniya]

I have a profound fascination with forensics.  I have seen the following things used for identification:  retinal prints, fingerprints, voice prints, handwriting analysis, facial recognition software, facial reconstruction (building up a clay model over a skull), DNA analysis, the folds of the ear, and dental records.  I have never seen or heard of the heartbeat being linked to an individual.

Until and unless I see research showing that the heartbeat of an individual is as unique as a fingerprint, and that there is an absolute necessity for this kind of warrant-less surveillance*, I will not be buying an electronic device with any of those 'features'.



*read: the day the Devil ice-skates to work.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I do wonder if you can hear murmurs and such with the heartbeat device.  That would be really useful.

[Oniya]

I can buy a discount medical-grade stethoscope for under $50.  How much is Apple's new phone running?

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Yes, but the stethescope doesn't do all the other cool things.  Plus alot of those heart problems are really really hard to hear.

[Oniya]

You mean the cool stuff like transmitting sensitive medical information to a third party without your consent?

I can't see how this doesn't violate HIPAA.

[Callie Del Noire]

I can't see Apple Legal okaying this. The lawyers at Apple must know this is ten types of stupid and twenty types of fiscally suicidal

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Well, no..meant like playing games and making phone calls and using the internet.  If the device was used to analyze heart murmurs then there wouldn't be any legal problems.  As for transferring your heartbeat to a third party, more than likely there would be a consent form signed.  Thereby your medical information is going to a known and consented upon third party.

[Oniya]

    * The system can take a picture of the user's face, "without a flash, any noise, or any indication that a picture is being taken to prevent the current user from knowing he is being photographed";
    * The system can record the user's voice, whether or not a phone call is even being made;
    * The system can determine the user's unique individual heartbeat "signature";
    * To determine if the device has been hacked, the device can watch for "a sudden increase in memory usage of the electronic device";
    * The user's "Internet activity can be monitored or any communication packets that are served to the electronic device can be recorded"; and
    * The device can take a photograph of the surrounding location to determine where it is being used.


So, let's see here.  I'm out with friends, and one of them has this phone.  It randomly records, whether or not anyone is making a call - that's wiretapping.  It takes a picture of the surrounding location and sends it who-knows-where - am I in that photo?  I borrow it to check my email - and I'm recorded.  The device isn't used to make medical diagnoses.  It records you and sends the information to someone else without you knowing when, if, or why.

[Serephino]

I can't see Apple Legal okaying this. The lawyers at Apple must know this is ten types of stupid and twenty types of fiscally suicidal

Not really.  All they have to do is send everyone a notice with lots of that fine print that hardly anyone ever reads.  Then if you find out and take issue all they have to do is say they you were notified, and if you didn't read the fine print that's your fault. 

[Revolverman]

Its shocking what people let Apple get away with.


Imagine this shit storm if Microsoft did this?

[Trieste]

Not to mention that it can disable the device that YOU PAID FOR if you do something with it that 'Apple doesn't like' (quoted from the article, not Apple).

[Hemingway]

I'd randomly say things like, "I know where you live!" in hopes of freaking someone out.

[Oniya]

Its shocking what people let Apple get away with.


Imagine this shit storm if Microsoft did this?

I don't think that people have 'let' Apple get away with this yet.  The article talks about it as though this is something Jobs is trying to patent for future use, not something that he's already got going.

Although... if someone were to successfully patent spyware, and then not implement it in anything, could they then sue the hackers that write it for patent infringement?

[Callie Del Noire]

Not really.  All they have to do is send everyone a notice with lots of that fine print that hardly anyone ever reads.  Then if you find out and take issue all they have to do is say they you were notified, and if you didn't read the fine print that's your fault. 

Because it violates like a dozen right to privacy laws I can think of. I mean it's ILLEGAL to publicly tape public officials (cops for example) in several states, and I KNOW that the idea of using the camera/microphone like that would not merely step into invasion of privacy but bulldoze across the line and on into the next zip code. Add in the fact that I suspect this would give ALL sorts of invasion of privacy suits ALL over the world, they are biting into a big nasty pie.

And Microsoft tried similar ideas with computers for security reasons (as have others) and all got quashed HARD.

Legally.. it's like using a blowtorch to light a cigar in a vapor filled gas tank farm. Not only are you assured of a nice firey bang..but it will be epically big.

[Serephino]

It's only illegal to record you if you don't know you're being recorded.  You know when you call up a 1-800 number and hear the message 'this call may be recorded for training and quality purposes'?  Since you've been notified they can record the call, not that everyone pays attention to the message....

All kinds of businesses like credit card companies, utility companies, doctors....  They collect all kinds of private information, and must provide information on how such information will be used, and who it can be disclosed to.  By using the service you're basically giving them permission to use that info in the way they told you they would.  Of course some of these companies use the info in other ways they don't tell you about,  but unless you can prove it there is nothing you can do.

All Apple would have to do is put somewhere in print that the software is there, and what it does.  As it says in the article, they can and probably will claim it as a security device to protect you from having your phone stolen.  Sadly, a lot of people would see this and not think twice because they're told it's there to protect them.   

Also, in most usage contracts I've seen, in there somewhere it states that the company reserves the right to terminate your service for any reason.  This generally only applies to you doing something wrong with the service, such as getting banned from this forum for trolling.  However, if Apple decides to disable something on your phone because they don't like what you're doing with it, all they have to do is point to that clause and tell you that their TOS says that program can't be used like that.  Usually when you download anything or sign up for an account of some kind they have this long list of their TOS, and you must click on something along the lines of 'I accept' to finish.  Who actually reads those?  I only skim it most of the time.   

[Callie Del Noire]

It's only illegal to record you if you don't know you're being recorded.  You know when you call up a 1-800 number and hear the message 'this call may be recorded for training and quality purposes'?  Since you've been notified they can record the call, not that everyone pays attention to the message....

Thing is.. this goes BEYOND that scope and is clearly an intentional attempt to circumvent the recent decision that you can jailbreak the iPhone/Pad.

AND invading privacy at the same time.

And don't forget that if you can't be assured that the voice/face that you're recording is the proper owner. What would you say if you were recorded by Apple doing something you don't want circulatedd (trade secrets/personal business affairs/ect?)

You have an expectation of privacy from your phone/computer.. you can't reasonably expect that the end user WANTS to be spied on by their hardware supplier.

No, this is just ASKING for massive invasion of privacy suits...

Not to mention.. you're BEGGING for 2nd party groups like phishers, scammers, hackers to LOOK for ways to get into the system and try and exploit it.

[Oniya]

And don't forget that if you can't be assured that the voice/face that you're recording is the proper owner. What would you say if you were recorded by Apple doing something you don't want circulatedd (trade secrets/personal business affairs/ect?)

And especially if you're not using the phone at the time - remember that the voice/picture transmission can occur whether or not the phone is being used by the person holding it.  At that point, this concept:

However, if Apple decides to disable something on your phone because they don't like what you're doing with it, all they have to do is point to that clause and tell you that their TOS says that program can't be used like that. 

if they choose to invoke it, holds as much water as my tempura spider.

[Revolverman]

Man, I remember when, when you bought something, it was yours, not rented out with bullshit TOSes.

[Callie Del Noire]

Well it's not like OTHER computer OS companies haven't done evil before. Microsoft tried to slip a clause into one version of the Word program TOS to allow them to use ANY content generated by the program. Yahoo did something similar with their TOS for their websites once upon a time (supposedly they wanted to be allowed to use the content on ANY of their sites for advertising purposes)

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should. Remember the first Fast&Furious CD with it's DRM, that when modified by a script that could be put in your email would give ANYONE access to your entire drive not just the music portion that the CDs publisher wanted access to?