You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 07, 2016, 06:25:19 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Prop 8 struck down.  (Read 18725 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jude

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2010, 07:23:23 PM »
My understanding of the situation is that (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) Prop 8 was aimed at recalling a specific law which allowed homosexuals to marry.  You can't really repeal prop 8, because it was a repeal in and of itself, but there's no reason why you couldn't start a voter initiative to get what was repealed back on the ballot for the next election cycle.

As far as the "less than human" bit, I think it's incredibly unfair to claim that everyone who's against gay marriage views homosexuals as "less than human."  It's casting the opposition with a fairly abominable position which is far stronger than the actual stated position without basis.  I know plenty of people who oppose gay marriage who wouldn't consider a homosexual less than human; though I can't really offer any statistics on the matter, but since you seem to be casting them in that light, could you provide the evidence you're using as a basis for that opinion?

The whole "talking wasn't working" thing, is also an unfair statement.  The approaches the gay community has been using over the last 10 years certainly hasn't been working very well.  Nationwide approval has been going back and forth but never reaching a majority for those who accept gay marriage.  I'd attribute that more to the aggressiveness they display and poor tactics than an inability to change minds.

EDIT:  I'll pull up the stats, just a sec.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 07:26:06 PM by Jude »

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2010, 07:26:39 PM »
Fair enough.  I withdraw my 'less than human' statement.

The opposition does seek to deny homosexual the same rights heterosexual's enjoy.

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2010, 07:27:39 PM »
Oi, oi, oi. "I can't give you evidence, but what's your evidence?" isn't really fair. This is a touchy subject; please be heedful of phrasing.

MM got in on his post quicker than I could, but I'm posting any way to remind people to think about the person on the other side of the monitor as, you know, a person... with feelings. Etc.

Offline Jude

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2010, 07:30:40 PM »
Oi, oi, oi. "I can't give you evidence, but what's your evidence?" isn't really fair. This is a touchy subject; please be heedful of phrasing.

MM got in on his post quicker than I could, but I'm posting any way to remind people to think about the person on the other side of the monitor as, you know, a person... with feelings. Etc.
I wasn't the person who made the initial claim, Trieste.  Isn't the burden the proof on the person who makes the initial statement?  Also, the statement being made was pretty offensive; essentially claiming that anyone who doesn't support gay marriage is a sociopath.

And here, stats:



« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 07:34:11 PM by Jude »

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2010, 07:32:07 PM »
False choice fallacy; "doing nothing" and putting forth court proceedings to strike down Prop B are not the only options.

EDIT 1:  You also forget that 52% of people were comfortable denying other people the ability to marry people of the same sex, meaning 48% were not.  You don't know what the breakdown of that 48% is, and how many of them were libertarians who don't necessarily agree with the lifestyle but do disagree philosophically with the law.  Judicial mandate isn't really the best way to win over the people on the fence.

EDIT 2:  And you have to think of the larger implications.  52% may have disapproved in California, but the numbers are larger elsewhere in the country.  I really doubt this is going to help the trend.

No. These aren't true. 52% of the people who VOTED were against it. 48% of the people who voted were against it. This election was most likely the most active election since Watergate but I'm willing to bet that it was most likely that only about 70% or so at MOST of anyone elegible to vote did.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad it got struck down and all that. I hope this will start a more rational process to the issue. I just don't have high hopes for rational debate and discussion coming out of it either way.

Offline Noelle

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2010, 07:33:13 PM »
The issue is not in simply talking, it's the attitude by which you talk. You can talk to someone and make them feel condescended or threatened and it gets you nowhere, possibly even sets you back. This kind of "you don't agree with me so I need to educate you" belief is incredibly condescending coming from anyone on either side of the issue...remember that those who may not agree with homosexuality probably think you need to be educated, too. Doesn't sound so great coming from the opposition, does it?

Acceptance of gays is not fact -- it is opinion, and because it is an opinion, people need to approach it less like "you need to accept me" and more like "you don't have to agree with me, you just have to respect my rights." This isn't the playground anymore -- nobody has to like or accept anything about you, be it your sexual orientation or the way you dress, but they do have to respect your rights therein. I think appealing to people less on a scale of "if you don't agree, you're a homophobe" would be a good step for diplomacy in that direction. Appeals to people work better, unsurprisingly, when you treat them like they're on the same level as you ;P

All of that aside, I wonder how the appeals process will go on this. However you break down the numbers, there is not a large lead in either direction -- it is hardly indicative of a large-scale trend, certainly not nation-wide. According to Gallup from May 2010, though the gap is rapidly closing, it's still not quite there.

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2010, 07:34:31 PM »
I wasn't the person who made the initial claim, Trieste.  Isn't the burden the proof on the person who makes the initial statement?  Also, the statement being made was pretty offensive; essentially claiming that anyone who doesn't support gay marriage is a sociopath.

Certainly you can say something like, "Hey, do you happen to have anything to back this up?" Also, throwing sociopath into the mix is essentially yanking a loaded word in. I'm just saying take it easy.

Offline Will

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2010, 07:37:30 PM »
In the end I would like the words 'compromise' and 'cooperation' to come back into politics but issues like this are being used as hammers to keep us divided.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree.  But in this particular case, not so much.  I don't think compromise has any place in granting people civil rights.

Offline Host of Seraphim

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2010, 07:40:14 PM »
I don't think compromise has any place in granting people civil rights.

I wish I had saved my Picard clapping gif for this instead.

Offline RevolvermanTopic starter

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2010, 07:43:17 PM »
I understand what you're saying, and I agree.  But in this particular case, not so much.  I don't think compromise has any place in granting people civil rights.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Offline Wolfy

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2010, 07:54:54 PM »
I wish I had saved my Picard clapping gif for this instead.



? :D

Offline Vekseid

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2010, 08:01:21 PM »
I'm conflicted on this one.
On one hand I'm glad for folks who want to pursue a life together BUT I worry that it's going about it the wrong way. This WAS passed by a majority, and I worry that it's setting a precedent that it's okay to push laws you don't like into court and get them overturned by picking the right venue for it.

I think it's going to be a problem, and I wonder if we're looking at the next prohibition blow out.

I'm glad for those that Prop 8 cut off, BUT I'm worried about the precedent.

The constitution was written to guarantee certain rights and protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. With the passage of the 14th Amendment, this both became binding on the states, and was expanded to cover racial minorities as well. In this case, the system functioned as it was intended.

Allowing charisma to trump logic is never a wise move. Ever.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2010, 08:03:21 PM »
The constitution was written to guarantee certain rights and protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. With the passage of the 14th Amendment, this both became binding on the states, and was expanded to cover racial minorities as well. In this case, the system functioned as it was intended.

Allowing charisma to trump logic is never a wise move. Ever.

I guess I'm being a bit stupid in wishing folks would come together and debate and discuss like rational people huh?

Offline Caeli

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2010, 08:09:10 PM »
It's not stupid, Callie. But Proposition 8 was unfair, in that it stripped civil rights from a minority. It's not a bad thing to wish that everybody could sit down and discuss the issue like rational people, but when you're debating politics and social policy, the discussion is almost never rational.

I have no doubt that people who were pro-Prop 8 believed fervently that they were voting for what was right. When it comes to beliefs and worldviews, opinions are always strong.

As Veks stated, though, the system worked as it should have in this case. Just because the majority voted it in, does not make it right.

Offline Wolfy

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2010, 08:12:08 PM »
That's right..declaring something "The right thing" solely because of a majority isn't..right. O-o

After all, the Majority of the world is Christian, but that doesn't necessarily make it the "Right" religion, now does it? o3o Of course not! o3o

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2010, 08:14:40 PM »
That's right..declaring something "The right thing" solely because of a majority isn't..right. O-o

After all, the Majority of the world is Christian, but that doesn't necessarily make it the "Right" religion, now does it? o3o Of course not! o3o

I think you forgot an o3o

Offline Wolfy

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2010, 08:16:19 PM »
I think you forgot an o3o

I did?...I don't think so...oh well, just in case!

O3O

Offline Serephino

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2010, 09:10:15 PM »
I saw some of the pro Prop 8 ads that were run.  It was a hot issue on daytime shows at the time.  Those ads were based on fear.  Some of them claimed that elementary school kids would be taught about gay sex.  They claimed that clergy refusing to marry a homosexual couple would be thrown in jail.  I really really hate it when people use fear to push their agenda. 

Talking isn't going to do a damned bit of good.  Those 52% are people who are against gays period.  What right to they have to shove their beliefs down everyone's throats?  I'm disgusted that such an issue was put up to the voters in the first place because personal prejudice was most definitely a factor.  Like the judge said, it made it look like hetero couples were superior, which is the biggest bunch of bullshit I've ever heard. 

My hope is that this goes through.  Those that felt gay marriage would be a threat to hetero marriage somehow will then see for themselves that their fears were unfounded.  The hardcore Christians and plain old homophobes are free to have their opinions, but they don't have the right to force it on me.

Why don't people get that denying gay marriage is taking something away from people; but allowing it won't change a damned thing for straight people.  They can still continue on with their hetero lives.  They lose NOTHING. 

Offline Noelle

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2010, 09:50:48 PM »
Talking isn't going to do a damned bit of good.  Those 52% are people who are against gays period.  What right to they have to shove their beliefs down everyone's throats?  I'm disgusted that such an issue was put up to the voters in the first place because personal prejudice was most definitely a factor.

What? Whoa, this is precisely the bad attitude I was talking about -- since when did the whole "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude get anyone anywhere? If you make it "us vs. them" issue, that's precisely what you're going to get -- alienating people does not win them over or gain their sympathy towards your cause. To them, allowing homosexuals to marry is shoving that down their throats. (And, I might add, if talking doesn't do any good, why would these commercials be a threat?)

Some of that 52% may have been uncomfortable with the semantics alone -- after all, that's half of what this issue is even about is control over a word. For the sake of argument, we can assume that the majority that voted against it are conservative, probably religious Republicans.

Source (You have to scroll down to the "Which comes closest to your view? Gay couples should be allowed to legally marry. OR, Gay couples should be allowed to form civil unions but not legally marry. OR, There should be no legal recognition of a gay couple's relationship.")

The statistics show over and over again that said more Republicans backed civil unions for homosexuals than marriage by a very large percentage -- that's hardly as stark as you're putting it ("they're against gays period"). For example, the most recent results for Republicans on the issue shows that their support for civil unions for gays jumps 22% compared to marriage. Writing that off as nothing is incredibly damaging to the gay rights movement, and is (in my estimate) one of the many reasons, as you claim "talking isn't working". Because both sides have their ears and eyes shut to the other, and it's become a wank over who can plug their ears and yell the loudest. Compromise starts at realizing that you may have more in common with your perceived "enemy" than you realize.

The fact is, you don't know their motivation, and to paint them all with the same broad stroke is only self-fulfilling of your "talking doesn't work" attitude because that is the very thing that perpetuates such a thing. I'd wager you'd hate it if somebody did the same to you.


Quote
My hope is that this goes through.  Those that felt gay marriage would be a threat to hetero marriage somehow will then see for themselves that their fears were unfounded.  The hardcore Christians and plain old homophobes are free to have their opinions, but they don't have the right to force it on me.

And nor do you to them. There's two sides to the coin. Nobody has to like anybody, they merely have to respect their rights.

Quote
Why don't people get that denying gay marriage is taking something away from people; but allowing it won't change a damned thing for straight people.  They can still continue on with their hetero lives.  They lose NOTHING. 
[/color]

It's actually not taking anything away. Gays have never had the right to begin with. Just gonna requote myself, though, because I think it's relevant.

Quote
Acceptance of gays is not fact -- it is opinion, and because it is an opinion, people need to approach it less like "you need to accept me" and more like "you don't have to agree with me, you just have to respect my rights." This isn't the playground anymore -- nobody has to like or accept anything about you, be it your sexual orientation or the way you dress, but they do have to respect your rights therein. I think appealing to people less on a scale of "if you don't agree, you're a homophobe" would be a good step for diplomacy in that direction. Appeals to people work better, unsurprisingly, when you treat them like they're on the same level as you ;P


I find it kind of funny. I don't disagree with anybody here that homosexuals are deserving of equal rights as anyone else, I have no deep moral or religious qualms with homosexuals, and yet I find myself playing a kind of devil's advocate about the whole thing. I just think it's important to realize that self-righteousness is blinding no matter if the cause you're supporting is the "right" one.

Offline Serephino

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2010, 10:04:35 PM »
How exactly do you compromise with people who keep screaming that marriage is only between a man and a woman because God said so? 

Offline Noelle

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2010, 10:17:21 PM »
Probably the same way you compromise with people who scream about wanting people to accept them even thought they don't agree with their lifestyle.

That's irrelevant, though, because you're assuming every single person who opposes gay marriage is the same way.

Offline Host of Seraphim

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2010, 10:23:28 PM »
How exactly do you compromise with people who keep screaming that marriage is only between a man and a woman because God said so? 


Exactly. With a lot of people in regard to this subject, there simply is no compromise. Although not everyone disagrees with gay marriage or even homosexuality for the same reasons, the odds of changing their opinion on the matter are next to none. Trust me, I've been a gay rights activist since I was ten. I've had that argument too, too, too many times, and I have never convinced anyone to see the other side.

And I will quote Will once again.

I don't think compromise has any place in granting people civil rights.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2010, 10:46:12 PM »
I guess I'm being a bit stupid in wishing folks would come together and debate and discuss like rational people huh?

I wrote this post for a reason.

People often react irrationally when they feel threatened. Really, the only way to overcome that sort of hatred is to be forgiving of initial transgressions, get people opposed to you familiar with you and your cause, then isolate and alienate the instigators, who tend not to be used to getting the rug pulled straight from underneath them like that.

Offline Noelle

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2010, 11:05:45 PM »
Exactly. With a lot of people in regard to this subject, there simply is no compromise. Although not everyone disagrees with gay marriage or even homosexuality for the same reasons, the odds of changing their opinion on the matter are next to none. Trust me, I've been a gay rights activist since I was ten. I've had that argument too, too, too many times, and I have never convinced anyone to see the other side.

So the answer is, instead, to alienate even those who are showing signs of compromise because they're being lumped in to a bigger group?

Alienating an entire group without looking for those who are more centric is, quite frankly, the worst thing the gay rights activists could do to help further their cause. Think to how you feel when someone condescends you and thinks you need to be "converted". Chances are, you not only disagree with them more than you normally would've, but in some cases, you purposely go in the opposite direction. Not a great way to win people over.

I just have to repeat (since Will's quote is also getting repeated) just to emphasize that nobody has to be accepting of homosexuality. I think issues get crossed on this front -- accepting someone's actions/lifestyle/whatever is not a given, it's not even law. Giving and maintaining rights that promote equality, however, is another matter entirely. If some number of religious people don't agree with homosexuality, but understand the importance of equality, why would you write them off? Compromise comes on the part of gay rights activists through realizing that in order to gain more support, you can't alienate those who show some hints of persuasion. It's not black or white, it's not "us vs. them", and to make it that way is to basically set your cause back because it's not that simple. Being on the "right" side isn't a free pass to start treating the "wrong" side as insignificant.

Offline Host of Seraphim

Re: Prop 8 struck down.
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2010, 11:36:39 PM »
Quote
So the answer is, instead, to alienate even those who are showing signs of compromise because they're being lumped in to a bigger group?

No. Please don't put words in my mouth. I was making a point that people who truly are against gay rights are not going to be swayed, no matter how hard you try.

Quote
I just have to repeat (since Will's quote is also getting repeated) just to emphasize that nobody has to be accepting of homosexuality.

Nobody has to. Like someone said in a previous thread about homosexuality -- I think it was Trieste who said it, and I'm just paraphrasing here: "Everyone has the right to an opinion, but you can't expect your opinion not to negatively effect the way others see you."

I understand that an "us vs. them" attitude is not the way to win. But try and see it from our shoes.  Attitudes like that are the effect of years of being treated like shit for something you can't control. Although not at all productive in the long run, sometimes it feels good to blow off steam. Would you please stop playing the "You're just as bad as them!" card and let us vent in peace over this small victory?