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Author Topic: Religion is a control mechanism?  (Read 8927 times)

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Offline Brandon

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #100 on: June 11, 2010, 07:29:11 AM »
Yes.

The "methods of contraception" condoned by the Catholic church, to use your analogy, would be like a doctor telling your cancer patient: "We can leave your condition to rot so you die in agony, or we can give you our traditional leech therapy."

The reason you're getting so much flak is because not only is Catholicism a control mechanism headed by a (former?) Nazi who claims to be the infallible vicar of Christ on Earth.

It is a belief system and organisation that imposes celibacy, categorically opposes abortion and contraception of all useful kinds, preaches homosexuality is an abortion, and systematically covers up paedophilia by its supposedly celibate priests who need something to do in between brainwashing children with the fear that they're going to hell,that they are born in sin, that another human being suffered and died two millennia ago to save them from this sin...

Do I need to go on? You have the right to believe what you believe, but to defend an organisation with such evil principles is going to piss off every non-Catholic on Elliquiy to some extent.

Do you want to hear about how other religions are evil? Read their holy books and draw your own conclusions.

Of course Catholics have done a lot of good as well, but the glaring crimes against humanity mentioned above which it still preaches today don't endear the Holy See to anyone.

When I was deployed to Bosnia I remember once handing out food supplies to a refugee camp. While I was doing so I noticed a man limping through the line and I offered to examine him, finding he had a compound fracture in his leg. I took the supplies from my combat lifesaver bag and put a splint on it with the intention of getting him some permanent help later. While I was doing that he asked me "Why do you risk your life to help us?" I remember thinking the question was odd which in hindsight probably says a lot about me. I said something like "because I can". I was born with the knowlege, ability, and commitment to do good. How could I not use that power then and now?

Now Im sure you've asked why the trip down memory lane? It is because that principle is influenced by my catholic upbringing. I dont do the things I do because a book or a priest tells me to. I do the things I do because I choose to, that is what my conscience wants. If the principles that I have formed due to that influence are evil then by all means sign me up for the doom fortress

I saw that man again a few days before I left the country. He was was walking with a cane by then, but his cast had come and gone. Its a shame, I wished I could have signed it

Offline Serephino

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #101 on: June 11, 2010, 08:27:52 AM »
That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.  I'm Pagan, and I donate to charity, open doors for people, help out friends... ect...  That has absolutely nothing to do with my religion.  It's just the kind of person I am. 

I have to admit that I'm getting rather frustrated here.  You wanted to know why everyone is attacking Christianity.  I give you a list of reasons, and I'm demonizing and attacking the religion, then you whine that no one is answering your questions.  I did, but then you wanted proof, then you had to discount and disprove it all by splitting hairs and using faulty logic.

In every article provided, by me and others, it stated somewhere that the reason the church is against condoms is that it promotes promiscuity.  Sex is only for procreation.  If you're not trying to make a baby then don't do it.

I won't argue that not having sex is a very effective way of preventing the spread of STD's and unwanted pregnancy.  However, think about where you are for a minute.  We like sex; most adults do.  Adults are going to have sex.

I'm not getting this whole net reference.  Aren't condoms a solid piece of latex?  I do remember that when I was considering becoming sexually active, I took it upon myself to educate myself.  When used properly, condoms are 88% effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy and disease.  I know that isn't 100%, but, it's a whole lot better than no protection at all. 

Holes can happen if a condom is too old, or a petroleum based lube is used instead of water based.  Breaking can happen, especially if you don't make sure there isn't any air in that balloon looking thing at the tip.  This is the kind of information that needs to be passed on to people in Africa.  Abstinence only education doesn't work in American schools, so what would possibly make you think it would work in Africa?

Maybe you're right and African men don't want to use condoms because of a masculinity issue.  But how would teaching abstinence fix that issue?  If they want to have sex, they're going to.  Education and correct information will give them the best chance.

And okay, so the church allows the rhythm method and abstinence as birth control.  As Oniya said, people who use the the rhythm method are called parents.  So it is like offering to treat cancer with leeches, because we know a lot better now.  My point was that condoms, which is what we were talking about, are not allowed, and neither is the birth control pill or masturbation because it's a waste of seed.   

You also say that you don't agree with a lot of the views of the church, so why defend them like this.  You're all over the place bringing up things that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.  Either way, I'm done with this.  I'm not going to keep banging my head against a brick wall.       

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #102 on: June 11, 2010, 09:17:27 AM »
Like I said its not Jesus its the humans and their institutions that decided THEY have the truth and real way to follow Him, for me denominations are the issue and churches (small "c" are the issue) when they have leaders between say me and God - which includes Jesus.

Christianity is meant to be a simple faith you ask God to forgive your sins through Jesus, get baptized which you can do yourself on yourself, live as Jesus like a life as you can and do charity to others then trust God through His Holy Spirit to guide you and the blood of Jesus to save you from Hell. Its not that hard. Institutionalism made it hard, theologians made it hard, clerical leaders make it hard - not Jesus.

I say there is control only as far as humans then abuse my faith for their own selfish agenda and leave out the real truth, but all faiths tend to have those issues if one isn't careful. I would think a Wiccan priestess could wield power over a coven if one isn't careful or some other religion. I noticed in Islam Imams can wield immense power for me that is a big risk in that faith.

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #103 on: June 11, 2010, 09:32:29 AM »
All right folks, let's all take a deep breath here and step back for a moment.  It seems to be getting a bit off topic here, and frustration levels are mounting.  Please stick to the topic at hand to avoid further escalating the frustration levels.

Thanks. 

Offline Oniya

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Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2010, 09:43:59 AM »
Oniya is correct. I should have been more clear that abstinence is the only way to prevent AIDS and HIV infection with 100% effectivness. You can not get an STD through sex if you dont have it afterall. Although I disagree with her about the percentage points when it comes to absolute protection vs a high chance of protection. I think thats an important point that is easily looked over just because of the numbers

If you are going to say that I am correct, then at least admit that the statement I have bolded above is NOT what I said.  The statement I have bolded below is.

The thing is, not even abstinence is a 100% prevention for AIDS or even STDs. People can catch AIDS from needle-sticks.  (I worked IT in an AIDS lab for a while, and we were required to know where the emergency antivirals were located.)  There have been bank robbers that have used syringes of their own blood as weapons/threats.  STDs can be transmitted by heavy petting if one partner is 'shedding'.  There are nearly perfect prevention methods, though, and quibbling over a few percentage points is casuistry.

Offline Brandon

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #105 on: June 11, 2010, 09:53:14 AM »
Oniya: Yeah sorry. Hmmm suggestions on how to reword it? I dont mind just editing it, Im not exactly sure how to phrase it though

Angel: In a discussion where it is so one sided Im going to be all over the place as I respond to peoples points of view. Think about it for a second. Its me vs. Angel, Silk, Hairy, ramster, xenophile, and Will. Then there are two pretty neutral people that have participated in the debate too, Oniya and Lilias. Its frustrating for me to constantly be at odds with you all, this very discussion was born out of my frustration at the unfairness, but nothing worthwhile is easily obtained. In this case what I want to obtain is fairness. That bias and intolerance of christianity that continues to pop up in these threads needs to die.

As I told Will, if were going to discuss something outside my expertise or knowledge then I require some kind of neautral 3rd party proof. Otherwise how do I know if something is true or not? For that matter I lack the context which is all to important to discussions like this. I saw a suspect article earlier, I explained why it was suspect, and I dismissed it because it was suspect. Even though it was suspect, I answered questions about it as if it werent and when I didnt know something I went and found the research before returning with my results. In the end, I refused to give hairy the answer I wanted to give, I think I never gave him the answer he wanted, but I gave him the right answer. The truth supported by research and mixed with personal opinion. For everyone to see and everyone to understand how I came to that result. I could have refused, I could have lied to him an dsaid, no the Cardinals right on for all points but I refused to compromise my integrity. I am here to defend the Catholic church, to make sure that people can not freely demonize it anymore but Im also here for the truth.

The truth, as uncomfortable as it might be, is that the Catholic church is responsible for a lot of pain and suffering throughout the years but at the same time its also responsible for a lot of lives saved, communities rebuilt, and spirits lifted. I will not run from the truth but I will not let people bury part of it either

Miths right though, this continues to be off the original topic even though Majere spawned the conversation. Is it possible to move all the relavant posts to a new thread? Maybe title it Brandon vs the world? :P

Edit: Ya know when I was writing out the list I forgot to mention that Azreal has been pretty neautral as well. Sorry I overlooked ya man
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 10:21:39 AM by Brandon »

Offline Serephino

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #106 on: June 11, 2010, 11:18:33 AM »
The original topic is whether or not religion is used to control the masses.  The truth of the matter is when it comes to Abrahamic religions; Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, yes.  The leaders tell everyone else if they don't do everything these leaders tell them, they're going to hell.  All the Pope has is a big hat, and the church's word that he is an authority on God's will.  I'm sorry, that's not good enough for me.

I have to admit I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to the hierarchy of Judaism and Islam, but I know there is one.  Hell, Christianity sprung from Judaism.  Jesus was a Jew after all.  And from what I learned in Bible school, they had/have their own version of the Vatican that Jesus constantly fought against, which is why it makes absolutely no sense to me for Christians to follow the OT, which is Jewish law, but I digress....

When Pope Whoever put the crown on Charlemagne's head, that symbolized that God endorsed the king, so if the people questioned the king then they questioned God, and they couldn't do that.  Of course that also put the church over the king in authority, which in my opinion, was a bad thing.

The common person couldn't read, and sermons were done in Latin, so people had to take the word of the priests as to what the word of God was.  And yeah, a good way to control people is to keep them ignorant and fearful.

Ruby does have a point that this can happen in any religion.  Following someone without question is never a good thing.  There are Pagans who claim to be an authority on one tradition or another and brainwash newbies who don't know any better.  That is why people like myself try to get a hold of newbies first so they know better than to fall for that crap.

And Brandon, you are taking all of this way too personally.  It's not us vs. you.  We are making our case by pointing out the things the church has done, and is doing.  We're allowed to criticize the government, which I do every chance I get.  As long as it isn't made up, you don't see that as unfair do you?  Why is the church any different?  Why shouldn't we be allowed to criticize things we disagree with? 

Offline Brandon

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #107 on: June 11, 2010, 11:34:46 AM »
And Brandon, you are taking all of this way too personally.  It's not us vs. you.  We are making our case by pointing out the things the church has done, and is doing.  We're allowed to criticize the government, which I do every chance I get.  As long as it isn't made up, you don't see that as unfair do you?  Why is the church any different?  Why shouldn't we be allowed to criticize things we disagree with? 

I think you misunderstood me, I dont think Ive ever said that people cant or shouldnt critisize groups they disagree with. However there comes a point when criticism goes to far. I wish there was a word like racism, that could be applied to a religion, because that would sum up my thoughts perfectly for whats going on around here.

Offline mystictiger

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #108 on: June 11, 2010, 01:23:34 PM »
To my mind, this topic is badly phrased from the get-go, and the tangents even more so.

Human society, in fact, any human grouping of more than one person is a form of control. Religion, capitalism, families, marriage, television, books, music... it's all about imposing views on other people.

Generalisations about catholic priests being paedophiles or organised religions stance on homosexuality are gloriously irrelevent. You can be homophobic and not religious, and a paedophile and not catholic. You can be backwards and irresponsible about the spread of HIV/AIDS and not be a missionary (former South African health minister; a German doctor pushing vitamins as a cure for it). You can be one of the people who discovered DNA and be a racist.

You can blame the Catholic Church for Nazi Germany all you want - but that doesn't explain Japan.

In short, humans as a species are, as large groups, afraid, hateful and look for any excuse to discriminate.

Is it really the case that if you were uninvent organised religion tomorrow that the world would be a better place? No. BP would still be stuffing up the environment, and North Korea would still be rattling its sabre, and hundreds of children would still be dying each day from malnutrition.

Online Silk

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #109 on: June 11, 2010, 03:49:08 PM »
I think you misunderstood me, I don't think Ive ever said that people cant or shouldn't criticize groups they disagree with. However there comes a point when criticism goes to far. I wish there was a word like racism, that could be applied to a religion, because that would sum up my thoughts perfectly for whats going on around here.

There isn't because there is no choice in race, or sexuality, or gender identity, or gender in general. Religion is a choice, Criticising a religion is more akin to criticising someones political view rather than some thing that is unfair, such as their race. There is no reason why religion should be held in higher esteem as any other conscious choice.

And the reason why its us vs you apparently is because it seems to be a common consensus with you to be the victim, "everything is a bias hatred towards catholocism" seems to be the most common phrase that comes from your mouth atm
Like I said its not Jesus its the humans and their institutions that decided THEY have the truth and real way to follow Him, for me denominations are the issue and churches (small "c" are the issue) when they have leaders between say me and God - which includes Jesus.

Christianity is meant to be a simple faith you ask God to forgive your sins through Jesus, get baptized which you can do yourself on yourself, live as Jesus like a life as you can and do charity to others then trust God through His Holy Spirit to guide you and the blood of Jesus to save you from Hell. Its not that hard. Institutionalism made it hard, theologians made it hard, clerical leaders make it hard - not Jesus.

I say there is control only as far as humans then abuse my faith for their own selfish agenda and leave out the real truth, but all faiths tend to have those issues if one isn't careful. I would think a Wiccan priestess could wield power over a coven if one isn't careful or some other religion. I noticed in Islam Imams can wield immense power for me that is a big risk in that faith.

Go stone some unruly children outside of town like Jesus told you too then.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 04:05:01 PM by Silk »

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #110 on: June 11, 2010, 04:27:30 PM »
Can we please try to keep the tone civil?  Personal attacks are not acceptable, so if you cannot keep yourself from doing so it's best if you not post anything at all. 

Offline Will

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #111 on: June 11, 2010, 05:01:44 PM »
Generalisations about catholic priests being paedophiles or organised religions stance on homosexuality are gloriously irrelevent. You can be homophobic and not religious, and a paedophile and not catholic. You can be backwards and irresponsible about the spread of HIV/AIDS and not be a missionary (former South African health minister; a German doctor pushing vitamins as a cure for it). You can be one of the people who discovered DNA and be a racist.

But when the hierarchy of the church itself shuffles offenders around to try and hide things, then they become enablers and accessories.

You can blame the Catholic Church for Nazi Germany all you want - but that doesn't explain Japan.
How does that absolve them?

In short, humans as a species are, as large groups, afraid, hateful and look for any excuse to discriminate.
Sadly, some of those large groups are better at it than others.

Is it really the case that if you were uninvent organised religion tomorrow that the world would be a better place? No. BP would still be stuffing up the environment, and North Korea would still be rattling its sabre, and hundreds of children would still be dying each day from malnutrition.
It's actually hard to say how our society today would be different if one of its most influential factors were removed from history.  It's possible that our technology would be much further along by now, though that and any other possibilities are total conjecture.

Offline mystictiger

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #112 on: June 11, 2010, 06:06:50 PM »
Quote
But when certain parts of the hierarchy of the church itself shuffles offenders around to try and hide things, then they become enablers and accessories.

Fixed for greater accuracy and less hyperbole. It was the churches at the national level that did that the shuffling, not some centrally orchestrated Vatican plot. By the same token, these countries are enablers and accesories because they did not have sufficient national regimes in place to protect the children.

Quote
How does that absolve them?
Well, the Catholic Church was the first entity or group to make a stand against Nazi Germany:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge

At the point that this was being done, the Allies were still divided and still turning away refugees from Germany. There is nothing that can absolve anyone for their inaction in World War 2.

The atrocities committed by non-Christian Japan, and non-religious USSR were on a par with that of the Nazis. If anything, the ideology of the Nazis was what happens when you try and replace religion with a cult of personality and veneration of the state rather than the divine.

Quote
It's actually hard to say how our society today would be different if one of its most influential factors were removed from history.  It's possible that our technology would be much further along by now, though that and any other possibilities are total conjecture.

Non-religious societies are still oppressive (North Korea, China). Religious societies are free and open (Poland, Malta). I would urge you to look at the religious leanings of the winners of the various Nobel prizes over the last few decades. Crick, the chap who discovered the structure of DNA was a creationist. Being religious doesn't mean you are automatically backwards and anti-scientific. Muslim scholars preserved Ancient Greek texts.

I would point you towards some of the most towering intellects of the last few hundred years:
-Newton - a deluded and insane alchemist.
-Einstein - believed in "Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind"
-Darwin - a theist
-Hawking - agnostic (although I did meet his son when I was attending a methodist school)
-Bose - a Hindu

In deed, you'll find a surprisingly large number of Noble Laureates are also religious.

It is a stereotype and a myth that religious people are backwards or antiscientific.

In short, you have failed to demonstrate the 'but for' test in any of your objections. People are stupid, cruel, petty, wicked, and criminal irrespective of their religion.

Offline Will

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #113 on: June 11, 2010, 07:18:59 PM »
I'm not saying that religious individuals can't make scientific breakthroughs.  I'm saying religious organizations have, in the past, contributed greatly to the constipation of scientific advancement.

What makes you so certain that it was only certain parts of the church that did the shuffling (or knowingly let it go on)?

Offline Majere DreavanTopic starter

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #114 on: June 11, 2010, 08:14:30 PM »
Quote
Silk :Go stone some unruly children outside of town like Jesus told you too then.

hmmm
Quote
(3/3/0028)Jesus: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
...
WHAT? something tells me one of those phrases were off a bit.

Offline Brandon

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #115 on: June 11, 2010, 09:15:54 PM »
*gets on his soapbox for his final post in the thread*

I know that Mith's statement was primarily aimed at Silk. However, it also applies to me as well due to my comment of what I will dub Theocism (a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various religions determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own religion is superior and has the right to rule others. Finally as a point of order Atheism applies to the definition of religion). Perhaps Im off here but I cant help but feel as though there is some political correctness charged censorship going on and my thoughts on that follow

"A society where anyone can make jokes about anyone else and everyone laughs is a truly tolerant society. Political correctness charged censorship only serves to engender resentment and distance between social groups."

Parting thoughts: Next week when this topic comes up again due to theocism I will be back and ready to debate just as fiercly as I have in this thread but before I go I want to leave you with this parting thought. In the video game Infamous theres a very good quote that goes like thus: "If you want to test a man's character give him power." Looking back in history we can easily see how the weak character of men and women ultimately gave way to corruption when they were given power. As I said before it is easy for us to apply our morales to very different cultures and social groups when we forget the important differences between us and them. So to close, if you were placed in a position just like these "Corrupt priests" would your character be strong enough for you to live up to your own critisism?

Offline Serephino

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2010, 09:17:56 PM »
We may yet find out what the world will be like without religion.  It seems like mainstream religions are slowly dying out.  In the past year about 7 Catholic churches in my area had to close.  At least 2 Catholic schools closed.  They talk about it on the news and the young generation is leaving, and the older generation is dying out.  The young people are either becoming Pagans or Atheists. 



Online Silk

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #117 on: June 12, 2010, 02:37:12 AM »
hmmm ...
WHAT? something tells me one of those phrases were off a bit.




Deuteronomy 21:18-21
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 02:45:54 AM by Silk »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #118 on: June 12, 2010, 02:54:17 AM »
That would be Old Testament.  Jesus doesn't come into the picture until the New Testament.

Offline mystictiger

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #119 on: June 12, 2010, 02:56:52 AM »
I'm not saying that religious individuals can't make scientific breakthroughs.  I'm saying religious organizations have, in the past, contributed greatly to the constipation of scientific advancement.

You're saying that Gallileo was supressed because he objected to the global 'scientific' paradigm then in force throughout the known world.

Quote
What makes you so certain that it was only certain parts of the church that did the shuffling (or knowingly let it go on)?

It's this irritating thing called 'burden of proof' and 'innocent until proven guilty'. I don't have to prove that the hierarchy is innocent.

Quote
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Yay! Never been prouder of my heritage than when we talk about Old Testament law. It's passages like this that make my knuckles itch whenever someone uses the OT as justification for anything, be it prejudice, the Israeli state...

Online Silk

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #120 on: June 12, 2010, 03:03:19 AM »
That would be Old Testament.  Jesus doesn't come into the picture until the New Testament.

Except that jesus spent alot of his time quoting deuteronomy in his teachings? And not forgetting the "holy trinity" dealie, AND that the new testament will have no substance whatsoever if the teachings and stories of the old testament were unfounded. After all, how could jesus die for our sins if they never happened to get said sins in the old testament.

Anyway sorry for taking things off topic again, I'll be quiet if I can't keep it relevant
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 03:08:33 AM by Silk »

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #121 on: June 12, 2010, 03:26:09 AM »
I'm curious...at what point is any of this related to the original topic?  Besides becoming another beat down on religion, Christianity in particular, I'm not seeing much of a trench from the original post.  Perhaps people should try to recover the original senitment of this thread if there ever was much of one or mayhap this thread should go where other off topic threads go.  Which is to say the garbage.

Offline mystictiger

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #122 on: June 12, 2010, 03:37:54 AM »
This is the 'advanage' of picking on Christian faiths - they won't start trying to kill you ;)

As to the original topic - I stand by the assertion that all social human activity is about control, about asserting your ideas on someone else. Law, music, media, religion... human society is essentially a contest for hearts and minds.

Online Vekseid

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #123 on: June 12, 2010, 01:36:50 PM »
Gwuh. I started trying to untangle this thread but I think the lack of clarity in the original post makes that impossible.

If someone wants to use them to start a more coherent thread, feel free to quote from here, but please keep it to one topic at a time. If someone wants to make a better topic for the original intent of this thread, that would be nifty too.

As a general reminder to everyone, at the top of each board there is a New Topic button, and quotes can cross threads.

Hopefully, future threads will have less hyperbole, cite more sources (Wikipedia is not a source), and have more dialectic and less stonewalling.

Thank you.