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Author Topic: Religion is a control mechanism?  (Read 8930 times)

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Offline Brandon

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2010, 06:42:45 PM »
Brandon, you're really demanding proof of the Catholic Church's inaction during the Holocaust?  They outright apologized for it.  Isn't that proof enough? And no, before you ask, apologies don't ever make anything better.

And why would they have apologized if there was nothing wrong in their inaction?  They aren't exactly the type of organization that just hands out apologies for no reason.

I understood your point just fine, I promise.  My point is that you can't say that "We're all better now, get off our backs" when bad things keep happening.

Outright or did? Heres the problem Will, I am not nor have I ever been a historical expert. The events that took place in world war 2, that I know of, are related solely to the fights and actions between the Axis and Allies. I fully admit, beyond what I learned in school I have not done any research into the events and of course, school avoids questions regarding religion in the same sense that I would avoid a plague rat. It just makes sense. If youre going to pull out information that is beyond my knowlege or expertise then yes I need a neutral third party evidence to support it, otherwise how do I know if what you're saying is true or not?

Silk: Having been to Africa just a few years ago I can say with some certainty that its not because someone is telling them that condoms cause HIV, its because men in the various settled African civilizations have a psuedo-macho belief that condoms harm their masculinity. I doubt the legitimacy of your claim that the church has willfully misleaded Africans into spreading a dangerous STD, put Im fair. Give me something that can prove that theory.

Ok so yes, lets talk about Uganda. How about we start with Pope Benedicts response to the Anti-gay death law? http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/vatican-speaks-out-against-uganda-anti-gay-laws

Heres the quote that matters

Quote
Pope Benedict is opposed to 'unjust discrimination' against gay men and lesbians

My personal opinion is, that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality and that legally and socially homosexuals should enjoy the same rights and freedoms as I do. At the same time, I always laugh when I hear homosexuals shouting for tolerance and yet see their intolerance for the religions or people that speak out against them. That is of course hypocrasy and it is delicious  ;D

IMO Uganda is less about right and wrong and more about defying the cultural courses that they do not agree with. Its easy for us to try and apply our morales to other cultures and the past but one thing we often forget is that these are very different places and the cultures that have developed have different values. Dont get me wrong, Im not trying to excuse what I believe is an inhumane law but I am trying to make people look at it from Uganda's perspective.

Everyone else already addressed my thoughts on your chart there. Without further data its useless to me and this discussion

Finally I want to ask, what makes you think that I volenteer at a homeless shelter every week because a book or priest tells me to? I do good things because my consience tells me to. I have my own morales that have been influenced by my faith but as Ive made abundantly clear, I dont believe everything that faith tells me either. Cant believe Im about to quote Andrew Ryan of all characters here: "A man chooses, a slave obeys"

Quote
If you truly want to see those organizations you support thrive, you will support healthy processes within them, and discourage bad ones. This goes for your country, your religious order, your political party, your state, your military unit, your business, and those forums you invest your time in - every organization you are a part of. Every single one of these organizations is made up of human beings, and every single human being has their flaws - from worker to leader.

I'll agree with that, and thats precisely why I've started this mission of mine. All to often around Elliquiy people have taken religion out of context to make it into a joke or they spin it to make it out to be worse then the Nazi's. Listening to a few people its almost like they believe another Crusades is just around the corner. This happens frequently around Politics and religion but its not the only place it happens either. While Im fine with purely fictional representations of religion gone wrong (hey they can make great stories) when I see such amazingly ignorant and/or unfair bias for the real world thing I feel I have to speak up, otherwise our "public face" seems to ring true of anti-religion

You yourself know that I once said, "I dont care if I have to be the "bad guy" but I dont want a great website to turn into a pile of crap." That holds true even today

Offline Serephino

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2010, 09:28:57 PM »
Silk does bring up some good points.  There may be an issue regarding masculinity, but the church did come out saying that condoms will spread HIV.  They did that because condoms let people have pre-marital sex, which is a sin. And homosexuals are being killed, and witches are still being burned at the stake.  Every so often I come across articles about it in my Pagan networks.  And no, I don't think y'all will ever be forgiven for the persecution of witches, no matter what you do. 

Then there is burning books like Harry Potter.  Harry Potter corrupts the souls of children?  Give me a fucking break!  The church has been coming out against movies like the Golden Compass.  They didn't like the DaVinci Code or Angels and Demons much either.  They've actually tried to get things banned because it's insulting to Christianity.  That's imposing on the freedom of non Christians to produce and watch/read what we want. 

The church is still trying to tell people what to think and believe, and trying to shove it down everyone else's throats.  I think that's why it's the most disliked religion.  Muslim terrorists are an  extremist group and a small percentage of the whole.  But Christian people bang on our doors and preach, tell us we're going to hell, picket and protest things in the media they don't like, molest little kids and hide it, and all sorts of things that make them a major pain in the ass. 

Like I said, I always look at the individual, but there is only so much ear rape a non Christian can take... Some Christians have taken it upon themselves to spread the word of God and make everyone see the light even if it means ramming it down their throats repeatedly until they convert just to shut you up. 

Offline Brandon

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2010, 12:47:52 AM »
Silk does bring up some good points.  There may be an issue regarding masculinity, but the church did come out saying that condoms will spread HIV.  They did that because condoms let people have pre-marital sex, which is a sin. And homosexuals are being killed, and witches are still being burned at the stake.  Every so often I come across articles about it in my Pagan networks.  And no, I don't think y'all will ever be forgiven for the persecution of witches, no matter what you do. 

My first thought to all those points is bull. It screams of the same bias I was talking about earlier. You make these bold claims all of them deragotory and you provide no evidence for your claims. Not a single article, police report, or anything to support the claim. From my point of view, that is demonizing a group of people so it makes it easier for people to hate them. Very similar to what most people claim the catholic church does for gays. Once again: Mmmmm hypocrisy

However, at the very least I can respect your opinion about redeeming ourselves during the actions of the witch trials. Thats at least honest. Although interestingly enough there was not a single Pagan murdered during the witch trials, most of them were christians on the wrong side of land disputes and rivalries, although I do recall a voodoo practicing slave in the mix too...her name started with a T I think.

Then there is burning books like Harry Potter.  Harry Potter corrupts the souls of children?  Give me a fucking break!  The church has been coming out against movies like the Golden Compass.  They didn't like the DaVinci Code or Angels and Demons much either.  They've actually tried to get things banned because it's insulting to Christianity.  That's imposing on the freedom of non Christians to produce and watch/read what we want. 

So what? So does everyone. God forbid the catholic church responds unfavorably to an anti-catholic movie/game/book even though anyone else in their position would do the exact same thing. Dont believe me? Take a look back at Russia's response to the "No Russian" level in Modern warfare 2.

The church is still trying to tell people what to think and believe, and trying to shove it down everyone else's throats.  I think that's why it's the most disliked religion.  Muslim terrorists are an  extremist group and a small percentage of the whole.  But Christian people bang on our doors and preach, tell us we're going to hell, picket and protest things in the media they don't like, molest little kids and hide it, and all sorts of things that make them a major pain in the ass. 

Alright, at this point I feel Ive made my views on the inappropriate behavoir of catholic priests abundantly clear so I will no longer be listening to it at all, even though people will never let it go. So tell me what the difference is between religious orders knocking on your door and lets say girl scouts who wont leave you alone till you buy their cookies? or how about rebulicans/democrats trying to get their man elected to the local office? Oh wait I think I know, its just the frequency in which it happens...

Like I said, I always look at the individual, but there is only so much ear rape a non Christian can take... Some Christians have taken it upon themselves to spread the word of God and make everyone see the light even if it means ramming it down their throats repeatedly until they convert just to shut you up. 

Sounds to me like your problem isnt with the majority at all but with a minority within the group. What a surprise

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2010, 02:50:54 AM »
It's the minority within any group that tends to cause problems, but if the majority says or does nothing to stop them, then the entire group gets tarred with the same brush. If your only experience, or the majority of your experiences, with a particular demographic are negative, then you will think badly of them, regardless of how good the rest of that group are. That, unfortunately, is human nature.

Here's a news article about the condoms and AIDS thing

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids

If you go here

http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm

and scroll down, you'll find a number of news stories about Christian hostility towards (I think specifically) Wicca.

The witch burning, from what I can understand, seems to be mainly an African issue these days. I recall a story or two from England last year of children being tortured and killed because their parents thought they were witches / possessed or what have you. I'm afraid I don't have time to go looking for news links at the moment though.

The way I look at it, power corrupts. Be that power social, religious, political or whatever, give them wrong person power and they will abuse it. Unfortunately when you add religion to the mix, you have people that believe that whatever they do IT IS RIGHT, because their God tells them so. That makes a bad mix even worse.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2010, 06:41:13 AM »
Because Catholicism still maintain inhumane ideals. Catholicism dictates that, though thankfully few follow up on those ideas, that non-believers should be ostracised, homosexuals are an abomination and there is a wide range of people mentioned that should be punished with the only reason being that "God dun like 'em". There exists a frustration against Catholicism because of the fact that the organization works to enforce, quite frankly, outdated and draconic ideals that violate human rights. Following up on the atrocities of old is just part of the rhetoric to argue that Catholicism hasn't changed enough.

So does Islam and they're continually coddled for it. When was the last time Catholicism inspired large scale war or even attacks outside of the country where the Catholics planning them resided? I'll give you a clue, it was before the Reformation and they still get crap over it. That's the issue. People act like the words said by the Catholic church make them the criminals of the century.

Offline Xenophile

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2010, 07:09:26 AM »
So does Islam and they're continually coddled for it. When was the last time Catholicism inspired large scale war or even attacks outside of the country where the Catholics planning them resided? I'll give you a clue, it was before the Reformation and they still get crap over it. That's the issue. People act like the words said by the Catholic church make them the criminals of the century.

First, Islam does not get coddled. Second, the organization within Catholicism and Islam are very different and you cannot compare them easily. The Pope is the spiritual, and de facto speaker of God's will on Earth. What he says is law. Urban II said that there would be a crusade and there was a crusade. But Islam does not have a speaker of God's law on the Earth. Instead, they have Imam's which replaced the priests and cardinals in a way, and each and every one of them can put a Fatwa on someone. A Catholic priest does not have the same power, but he must adhere to the structure and organization of the Catholic church. Islam does not have the same structure, as each community makes it's own decisions.
Let me make a diagram.

Pope - Priest - Action
[Absent] - Imam - Action
                  Imam - Action
                   Imam - Action
                    Imam - Action

Islam does not have the same systematic decisions as Catholicism, and they cannot get the same criticism. Yes, "Orthodox" Islam does preach the same violations against Human Rights as "Orthodox" Catholicism does, with a few minor variations. But as an organization, the Catholic church deserves criticism despite what Islam is doing. Even if Islam would become the most evil thing on the planet, the Catholic Church, as an organization, would deserve the same criticism because of the points I've made earlier. And declaring wars isn't the point, even though the Catholic Church supported the Nazi Movement and their the war effort.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2010, 09:02:05 AM »
First, Islam does not get coddled. Second, the organization within Catholicism and Islam are very different and you cannot compare them easily. The Pope is the spiritual, and de facto speaker of God's will on Earth. What he says is law. Urban II said that there would be a crusade and there was a crusade. But Islam does not have a speaker of God's law on the Earth. Instead, they have Imam's which replaced the priests and cardinals in a way, and each and every one of them can put a Fatwa on someone. A Catholic priest does not have the same power, but he must adhere to the structure and organization of the Catholic church. Islam does not have the same structure, as each community makes it's own decisions.
Let me make a diagram.

Pope - Priest - Action
[Absent] - Imam - Action
                  Imam - Action
                   Imam - Action
                    Imam - Action

Islam does not have the same systematic decisions as Catholicism, and they cannot get the same criticism. Yes, "Orthodox" Islam does preach the same violations against Human Rights as "Orthodox" Catholicism does, with a few minor variations. But as an organization, the Catholic church deserves criticism despite what Islam is doing. Even if Islam would become the most evil thing on the planet, the Catholic Church, as an organization, would deserve the same criticism because of the points I've made earlier. And declaring wars isn't the point, even though the Catholic Church supported the Nazi Movement and their the war effort.

Pulling an episode of South Park because it shows Mohammad is coddling, no matter what you say. If I called and raised a stink about Jesus in an episode they'd laugh and hang up.

Offline Brandon

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2010, 09:10:51 AM »
Looks like a slanted article regarding condom use there Hairy, according to the CDC (a much more reputable organization then I would consider any news group) condoms can reduce but not eliminate the chance of infection. Source: http://www.cdc.gov/condomeffectiveness/latex.htm

For a minute you had me going there, I thought that there might have been new discoveries since I learned about this stuff in high school, and then relearned it in the military, and then had to suffer through yet again when I was dating that Nurse. That said, seeing that they cant get the facts straight about condom use I also question their ability to report a story. One thing that really jumps out at me is this

Quote
n Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

Who are these priests? Why didnt the journalists follow up on the claim? Why is the director of the testing center unable to distribute anything due to religious opposition? For that matter who is this Gordon Wambi guy, is he the director of that testing facility, an employee, a guy on the street?

Looking back the article also says this

Quote
The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.

The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV.

What is this widespread scientific consensus? Who did it (I assume it was the World health organization but that isnt made clear)? Where can I look at the results and how the data was gathered? Why hasnt the CDC updated their website to conform to this new study? How is it that this article was written in 2003, yet in 2007 or 2008 we were still going by condoms are effective but not 100% reliable to prevent HIV and AIDS infection?

The most basic questions regarding just those pieces are unanswered showing either a huge slant or bad journalism. In todays day and age my gut tells me its more likely the former

The Wiccan site, after reading just 1 article (specifically WORLD PAGAN LEADERS ADDRESS THE POPE) is so unbelievably slanted it made me laugh. I may favorite that one, it was almost as funny as watching Zero punctuation. Alright, alright, so religion is serious business I shouldnt be laughing. However its very clear to me that the Wiccan site either knows very little about Catholic views and goals, they are just unbelievably biased, or theyre just intolerant of the church. There may be another reason that isnt crossing my mind

Anyway, Xenophile. I know nothing of Islam, would you mind posting your source for this information?


Offline Xenophile

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2010, 09:30:30 AM »
Pulling an episode of South Park because it shows Mohammad is coddling, no matter what you say. If I called and raised a stink about Jesus in an episode they'd laugh and hang up.

It isn't a law within any Christian mainstream religion against depicting religious figures. It is in Islam. It wasn't a case of coddling. Either, it's a case of respecting the religious laws of the Islamic faith, or Fox was scared of Fundamentalist reprisals. You take your pick.

And bear in mind, Blasphemy of any religion is in Norway, and Ireland has laws against Blasphemy too. Isn't that a case of Christian coddling too?

Offline Xenophile

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2010, 09:37:18 AM »
Xenophile. I know nothing of Islam, would you mind posting your source for this information?

Because you know nothing about it, you want me to provide you with sources about the second most largest religion in the world?

I'm not trying to sound crass, but maybe it's time to read up on it.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2010, 09:42:06 AM »
Possibly a good starting point?

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/

Offline Brandon

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2010, 09:43:05 AM »
Because you know nothing about it, you want me to provide you with sources about the second most largest religion in the world?

I'm not trying to sound crass, but maybe it's time to read up on it.

Mission failed, that sounded pretty crass but thats ok I can forgive ya.

If Im to participate in the conversation then yes Ill need to read about it. Since your an Atheist (or at least Im pretty sure you've called yourself one in the past) I figured you would have an excellent online source I can look over.

Offline Xenophile

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #62 on: June 10, 2010, 09:52:44 AM »
Mission failed, that sounded pretty crass but thats ok I can forgive ya.

If Im to participate in the conversation then yes Ill need to read about it. Since your an Atheist (or at least Im pretty sure you've called yourself one in the past) I figured you would have an excellent online source I can look over.

I'm more basing my points on a couple of years of highschool with classes focused on religion studies and civics studies and a couple of years of university where I attended a few months of Ethnography, and I made research on the Philippine island of Mindanao when it comes to the Islamic conflict of that region.

I have none of the books with me to cite you sources, I'm afraid.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 12:31:01 PM by Xenophile »

Offline Will

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #63 on: June 10, 2010, 12:28:52 PM »
What is this widespread scientific consensus? Who did it (I assume it was the World health organization but that isnt made clear)? Where can I look at the results and how the data was gathered? Why hasnt the CDC updated their website to conform to this new study? How is it that this article was written in 2003, yet in 2007 or 2008 we were still going by condoms are effective but not 100% reliable to prevent HIV and AIDS infection?

This is from the CDC website that you linked-
Quote
Overall, the preponderance of available epidemiological studies have found that when used consistently and correctly, condoms are highly effective in preventing the sexual transmission of HIV infection and reduce the risk of other STDs.
This is clearly not in agreement with the misinformation being spread in Africa.  Wtf, "tiny holes?"  So the HIV just goes right through?  No.  The failure of a condom to prevent HIV has more to do with human error or the occasional defective product.  If you want to split hairs over whether condoms are 100% effective or 99.9% effective, then go right ahead, but I don't think it's a worthwhile difference.  Especially not enough of a difference to say to hell with condoms altogether.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #64 on: June 10, 2010, 02:34:46 PM »
Looks like a slanted article regarding condom use there Hairy, according to the CDC (a much more reputable organization then I would consider any news group) condoms can reduce but not eliminate the chance of infection. Source: http://www.cdc.gov/condomeffectiveness/latex.htm

I'm not exactly sure what you're refering to there. The only comment I can see on efficiency is

The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

The organisation says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .


So yeah, they can reduce risk of infection. I don't think anyone said it was an absolutely foolproof method of preventing infection.

Who are these priests? Why didnt the journalists follow up on the claim? Why is the director of the testing center unable to distribute anything due to religious opposition? For that matter who is this Gordon Wambi guy, is he the director of that testing facility, an employee, a guy on the street?

Looking back the article also says this

What is this widespread scientific consensus? Who did it (I assume it was the World health organization but that isnt made clear)? Where can I look at the results and how the data was gathered? Why hasnt the CDC updated their website to conform to this new study? How is it that this article was written in 2003, yet in 2007 or 2008 we were still going by condoms are effective but not 100% reliable to prevent HIV and AIDS infection?

The most basic questions regarding just those pieces are unanswered showing either a huge slant or bad journalism. In todays day and age my gut tells me its more likely the former

I can't answer any of those questions, as I don't know. I will agree that news reporting should be that .. reporting, and not shaping and influencing. Unfortunately that's the way things seem to be these days.

The Wiccan site, after reading just 1 article (specifically WORLD PAGAN LEADERS ADDRESS THE POPE) is so unbelievably slanted it made me laugh. I may favorite that one, it was almost as funny as watching Zero punctuation. Alright, alright, so religion is serious business I shouldnt be laughing. However its very clear to me that the Wiccan site either knows very little about Catholic views and goals, they are just unbelievably biased, or theyre just intolerant of the church. There may be another reason that isnt crossing my mind

Ok, I don't know what article you did read, but apparently you missed the ones I suggested you look at. Try this link instead

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_conf4.htm

Oh, and the site isn't Wiccan, that's just the Wiccan section of it. This sums the site up

http://www.religioustolerance.org/1st_visi.htm


Offline Lilias

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #65 on: June 10, 2010, 02:41:18 PM »
It isn't a law within any Christian mainstream religion against depicting religious figures. It is in Islam. It wasn't a case of coddling. Either, it's a case of respecting the religious laws of the Islamic faith, or Fox was scared of Fundamentalist reprisals. You take your pick.

Religious laws bind only those who follow the particular religion (which the creators of South Park do not). They can become state laws under theocratical governments (which that of the US is not). There's no reason why this law should get more respect than the prohibitions against pork and alcohol.

I'm all for the fundie reprisals explanation - we've all seen what happened in Denmark, after all. But I do wonder what happened so suddenly to that 'no negotiating with terrorists' attitude.

Offline Xenophile

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #66 on: June 10, 2010, 03:09:03 PM »
Religious laws bind only those who follow the particular religion (which the creators of South Park do not). They can become state laws under theocratical governments (which that of the US is not). There's no reason why this law should get more respect than the prohibitions against pork and alcohol.

I'm all for the fundie reprisals explanation - we've all seen what happened in Denmark, after all. But I do wonder what happened so suddenly to that 'no negotiating with terrorists' attitude.

There are bakeries that make Mazda for the Jewish community, as well as slaughter houses which prepare meat according to traditional fashions. We can argue about how wrong it was of Fox to censor their writers to appease a religious group, but we cannot forget that it could be a respectful action to the Muslim community. Just because a law doesn't apply to me doesn't mean I can respect the person next to me. The same applies to inter-religious relations.

I hope you do not assume that every Muslim who would be offended at a violation against an important religious dogma would be a terrorist.

Offline Lilias

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2010, 04:17:57 PM »
I hope you do not assume that every Muslim who would be offended at a violation against an important religious dogma would be a terrorist.

Far from that. But the protests would be considered on a par with Westboro Baptist's picketings, if they didn't actually threaten people's lives and properties. That is terrorism.

Before the thread is sidetracked, I fail to see why one religious side has the right to be offended at what they perceive as blasphemy and another doesn't.

Offline Xenophile

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2010, 04:25:54 PM »
Far from that. But the protests would be considered on a par with Westboro Baptist's picketings, if they didn't actually threaten people's lives and properties. That is terrorism.

Before the thread is sidetracked, I fail to see why one religious side has the right to be offended at what they perceive as blasphemy and another doesn't.

Oh, a religious group has every right to be offended. If a religious group would not be allowed to be offended, then something is very wrong.

But every insult needs a proportional reply. The Danish cartoons had a disproportionate reply from many Muslim, and Islamic communities. Everyone has the right to be insulted. The important thing to remember is if the insult is deserving, and how you react to the insult itself.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #69 on: June 10, 2010, 05:03:13 PM »
There are bakeries that make Mazda for the Jewish community, as well as slaughter houses which prepare meat according to traditional fashions.

Erm - Matzo.  :-)  Just as a note, many of the kosher regulations are sanitation based, including the bit about having separate utensils for meat and non-meat (prevents cross contamination, and I've seen things marketed to non-Jewish folks under that product claim.)  I recall one case where a slaughterhouse went from kosher to non-kosher, and the slacker regulations resulted in contaminated beef getting into the local market.

Also, major companies like Coca Cola will produce special 'kosher for Passover' products.  Kosher Coke is made with cane instead of corn syrup, and tastes a lot better, in my opinion ;D

Offline Brandon

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2010, 05:10:24 PM »
Wait wait wait wait. Since when are insults ever deserved? They provoke emotional rather then rational thought and immediately set up barriers in the human mind so that the person is far less likely to agree to anything counter to their opinion in the discussion. Beyond that insults also show a collective immaturity (of the one doing the insulting) or intolerance for the one being insulted, perhaps both in some cases.

Granted we all do it as a form of retaliation but that still doesnt make it right

Offline Xenophile

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2010, 05:20:04 PM »
Erm - Matzo.  :-)  Just as a note, many of the kosher regulations are sanitation based, including the bit about having separate utensils for meat and non-meat (prevents cross contamination, and I've seen things marketed to non-Jewish folks under that product claim.)  I recall one case where a slaughterhouse went from kosher to non-kosher, and the slacker regulations resulted in contaminated beef getting into the local market.

Also, major companies like Coca Cola will produce special 'kosher for Passover' products.  Kosher Coke is made with cane instead of corn syrup, and tastes a lot better, in my opinion ;D

Ah, sorry. I'm not fluent in Yiddish  :-)

Many of the "Hebrew food regulations" are sanitation based as you said, but they have gone from simple guidelines to religious law. In the ancient Middle East, eating shellfish could be hazardous because it could get spoiled very easily, but nothing should prevent anyone form eating well prepared food.

But that's a side-track. The point is that religious laws are respected. Even when certain nations have laws against blood letting as a measure to kill animals in slaughter houses, some get special permission because a religious group cannot eat meat treated in any other way. We can all talk about whether it is humane or not, but the point is that religious groups get respected on some points and it isn't considered coddling when it happens.

Offline Soran

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2010, 05:48:12 PM »
Okay, I'm going to be bad (Don't hate me as I should be asleep) by bypassing the pages of arguments to answer the opening question.

Yes, Religion is a control mechanism, regardless of the religion (I know there are exceptions, just too tired to go into it)

You see interpretation is key here, not interpretation of religious texts by the masses, but by the religious leaders. They control what is preached, how they view other religions and quite often incur hatred towards other religions and nations by their teachings. That is controlling thoughts and actions of their followers. If that is not a control mechanism then clearly I'm looking in the wrong dictionary. *heads off to bed*

Offline Brandon

Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2010, 05:56:49 PM »
Heres what I was talking about Hairy, bolded for your pleasure

Quote
The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.

The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV.


im∑per∑me∑a∑ble
   /ɪmˈpɜrmiəbəl/ Show Spelled[im-pur-mee-uh-buhl] Show IPA
Ėadjective
1.
not permeable; impassable.
2.
Chemistry, Geology . (of porous substances, rocks, etc.) not permitting the passage of a fluid through the pores, interstices, etc.

That scientific study (that is not cited specifically mind you) is saying that condoms are 100% effective against infection of the HIV virus. They also go on to say that its a worldwide consensus but the CDC's information runs counter to that. According to the CDC no matter what you do condoms are not 100% reliable when preventing infection. Later on the article even contradicts itself

Quote
The organisation (reffering to the WHO) says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .

So here, they start out by saying this consensus says theyre 100% effective in preventing infection. Later on (seen above) they go back and say its about 90% effective, then 1 sentance later goes back to 100% effectiveness. This is not one of those casses where you can have it both ways, you either teach that they are 100% effective or that they arent 100% effective. Ill agree any prevention is better then none but its clear that the article (or perhaps the WHO) cant get their facts straight. That calls everything else into question

Now I want to switch gears to the Tiny holes in the condoms point. I can not find a translation in Bantu (the most widely used language for Uganda) for the word Microscopic (the holes reffered to are indeed Microscopic) so this is likely a translation problem when Tiny gets substituted for the word Microscopic.

Will: I might agree with you about the numbers not mattering if it was something between 50% and 99% but teaching people that your garanteed not to get infected when you really can is dangerous. If it wasnt 100% vs any other number I would likely agree with you
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 06:49:54 PM by Brandon »

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Religion is a control mechanism?
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2010, 06:14:24 PM »
Ah, ok. I may have missed that bit.