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Author Topic: Why is acceptance still so difficult?  (Read 2850 times)

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Offline NicholasTopic starter

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Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« on: May 29, 2010, 09:07:16 AM »
I do not post too much in here, but this made me very sad. I do hope that they will take this to the European Court for Human Rights.

http://www.365gay.com/news/moscow-mayor-bans-pride-parade-once-again/

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2010, 04:07:18 PM »
I wish I knew why acceptance is so difficult.  I would say it is something about fear of change, but I am beginning to think it is more than that.

I have felt rather militant about same-sex marriage.  I am beginning to think Lady Gaga (of all people) has a point.  We need to change minds with love.  Now if I could figure out how to do that.

Offline Caela

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2010, 04:42:42 PM »
Sadly some people just need something/someone to hate and anyone that is obviously different becomes an easy target.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2010, 04:46:10 PM »
Sadly some people just need something/someone to hate and anyone that is obviously different becomes an easy target.

I know it is easy to see it that way, but if we fall into that trap, do we not become equally guilty of vilifying that which we do not understand?

Do people really need something to hate?  And, if they do, is there not plenty of targets more easily agreed upon to focus such energy on?

Offline grovercjuk

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2010, 05:38:04 PM »
Because many people have a fixed mindset as to how the world should be and they cannot accept anyone who is outside that boundary.

Offline Brandon

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2010, 05:53:45 PM »
All human beings judge others on some aspect without knowing them, even those who try not to (like me). I think that aspect of humanity comes down to our nature. When was the last time you just looked at a person and decided that they didnt seem "normal"?

While this deals with an aspect that isnt visual, the knowlege of it can be disturbing to some and the retaliate in whatever way they can.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2010, 06:10:13 PM »
That makes sense.  We all try to relate to one another.  So how do we help others to relate without being driven to hate?

Offline Caela

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2010, 06:12:14 PM »
I know it is easy to see it that way, but if we fall into that trap, do we not become equally guilty of vilifying that which we do not understand?

Do people really need something to hate?  And, if they do, is there not plenty of targets more easily agreed upon to focus such energy on?

I wasn't trying to vilify anyone. Just giving the easiest explanation. There are certainly a lot of things that play into it, societal pressures, religious pressures, personal fear that the thing you despise is a part of yourself. I was just trying to break it down to it's most easily explainable factor.

And you're right, if I simply left it there and washed my hands of them, I would be just as guilty as they are. I don't know of people truly need something to hate. Many of the more virulent certainly seem to but that could just be my own perception. Personally I think hating anyone who has done you absolutely no harm is a waste of time and emotional energy and that we all have better things we could be doing. I'd much rather be outside playing with my daughter any day of the week than at some rally trying to protest that one person doesn't have the right to love another.

I don't need to hate but I do recognize that there are triggers that could be hit to make me hate specific people, but not sure what it would take to make me hate a whole group.

Offline Caela

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2010, 06:16:24 PM »
All human beings judge others on some aspect without knowing them, even those who try not to (like me). I think that aspect of humanity comes down to our nature. When was the last time you just looked at a person and decided that they didnt seem "normal"?

While this deals with an aspect that isnt visual, the knowlege of it can be disturbing to some and the retaliate in whatever way they can.

Very well said.

Offline Lyell

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2010, 08:18:52 PM »
When was the last time you ever saw a straight pride parade? Or heard a male co-worker talk to you about how he screws his wife doggy-style and hoped you and the workplace didn't have a problem with it? These are private things. PRIVATE things. People don't judge you because you're gay, they judge you because you insist on making sure the WHOLE WORLD knows it.

Some of my best friends are gay, and I knew them for YEARS before I found out. Didn't make them any different in my eyes, though I do have to admit the first 'Don't hit on me' conversation is usually a little akward.

Offline Brandon

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2010, 08:35:45 PM »
When was the last time you ever saw a straight pride parade? Or heard a male co-worker talk to you about how he screws his wife doggy-style and hoped you and the workplace didn't have a problem with it? These are private things. PRIVATE things. People don't judge you because you're gay, they judge you because you insist on making sure the WHOLE WORLD knows it.

I have to admit that is an interesting and compelling point. At the same time though, I think that equality is important. I mean the wedding ring is basicly a "not available symbol" and yet marriage is a kind of private social tool as well. Why cant homosexuals be allowed to marry and carry the same symbols?

Basicly what Im saying here is if heterosexuals can do it homosexuals should be able to too and visa versa


Offline Oniya

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Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2010, 08:41:17 PM »
I have to admit that is an interesting and compelling point. At the same time though, I think that equality is important. I mean the wedding ring is basicly a "not available symbol" and yet marriage is a kind of private social tool as well. Why cant homosexuals be allowed to marry and carry the same symbols?

Basicly what Im saying here is if heterosexuals can do it homosexuals should be able to too and visa versa

Actually, my sister and her wife had a ring exchange.  It doesn't mean anything in the eyes of the law or the church, but they can still wear one.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2010, 09:12:12 PM »
People don't judge you because you're gay, they judge you because you insist on making sure the WHOLE WORLD knows it.

Would there be a need for parades if people were not still beating homosexuals up simply for being homosexual?  If people were not killing homosexuals in some countries, just for being homosexual?  If families did not disown their children for being who they are?

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2010, 10:13:16 PM »
*Shakes head.*

Acceptance can be another issue depending on one's religion as well, which is something I avoid. Personally I don't care how people live their lives, as long as it isn't directly interfering with another's lifestyle. Depending on our upbringing, it effects our judgment and there are various elements that reflect upon this era of growth: Media, Religion, and Peers and the combination of all three is a deadly thing. Of course I am not saying any of those three are openly promoting abuse towards sexuality, race, or whatever; but! But, it serves as a basis of one's conscience and from there we take it however we like.

So what is right and wrong?

We all have a different perception upon what is morally correct. There are some things done that are frowned upon while others smile at them.

Is there a way to fix this problem?

I don't think there is or ever will be. We can give people rights but that doesn't stop the hate.

Offline Torch

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Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2010, 10:48:20 PM »
Some of my best friends are gay, and I knew them for YEARS before I found out. Didn't make them any different in my eyes, though I do have to admit the first 'Don't hit on me' conversation is usually a little akward.

And this conversation would be necessary because....?

Believe it or not, there are gay men who manage not to "hit" on every carrier of the XY chromosome, and for you to assume otherwise is, quite frankly, insulting.



Offline Lyell

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2010, 10:52:00 PM »
Would there be a need for parades if people were not still beating homosexuals up simply for being homosexual?  If people were not killing homosexuals in some countries, just for being homosexual?  If families did not disown their children for being who they are?

"Oh look, your skin color is slightly darker than mine, that means I want to hang you from a tree and burn you now."

Okay, we've established our quota for dumb shit to judge people by and despite efforts to destroy it, it still exists. Women STILL aren't getting equal treatment. The United States, while it may not happen regularly here has had its share of homosexual killings. Disowning your child because you found out something new about them is sub-human.

But how are parades supposed to fix any of that? If legislation has been tweaked to protect everyone under the sun from undue and unjust harm and it's STILL happening, how's a parade going to stop it?

And this conversation would be necessary because....?

Believe it or not, there are gay men who manage not to "hit" on every carrier of the XY chromosome, and for you to assume otherwise is, quite frankly, insulting.
Maybe if you took the time to ask me personally why that conversation was necessary I could have avoided calling you out on your overtly-defensive tendancies. I found out BECAUSE they hit on me, not through some divination on mypart.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2010, 10:59:38 PM »
I dare say the legislation passed because awareness grew.  The awareness grew because of parades.

Offline Lyell

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2010, 11:01:17 PM »
But how are parades supposed to fix any of that? If legislation has been tweaked to protect everyone under the sun from undue and unjust harm and it's STILL happening, how's a parade going to stop it?

Offline Torch

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Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2010, 11:03:36 PM »
Maybe if you took the time to ask me personally why that conversation was necessary I could have avoided calling you out on your overtly-defensive tendancies. I found out BECAUSE they hit on me, not through some divination on mypart.

So, these gay men, friends you have known for years (by your own admission), just all of a sudden decide to hit on one of their best friends whom they know is 100% percent straight.

And this happened not once, but more than once. (i.e. the word "friends")

Really? Because to be honest, that sounds incredibly odd.

My comment still stands, however. Gay men can control themselves, just as straight men can.

ETA: You might want to watch the language in your posts, as this forum is publicly visible.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 11:06:43 PM by Torch »

Offline Lyell

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2010, 11:08:48 PM »
Okay, making assumptions to support your garroting of my character is getting old. They didn't know if I was straight, bi or gay, or even if I was open to the idea. And yeah, despite the 'incredible oddity' of it, it DID happen more than once. I never claimed gay men couldn't control themselves and if you've got something against me, I suggest taking it up with me personally instead of derailing a thread over it.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2010, 11:23:08 PM »


Is your position that not having parades would lesson the hate and/or injustice?

Offline Torch

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Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2010, 11:25:56 PM »
Okay, making assumptions to support your garroting of my character is getting old. They didn't know if I was straight, bi or gay, or even if I was open to the idea. And yeah, despite the 'incredible oddity' of it, it DID happen more than once. I never claimed gay men couldn't control themselves and if you've got something against me, I suggest taking it up with me personally instead of derailing a thread over it.

I was asking for clarification on your statement, and yes, I find it odd that you and your best friends were unaware of each other's sexual orientation, but I suppose the definition of "best friends" can differ from one to the other. I am a straight female, and I have friends who are lesbians. They know I am straight, I know they are lesbian. They have never "hit" on me. *shrug*

So, as not to derail the thread any further, I'll answer these other points:

When was the last time you ever saw a straight pride parade?

There is no need to have a "Straight Pride" parade. Heterosexuality is the social norm.

Quote
Or heard a male co-worker talk to you about how he screws his wife doggy-style and hoped you and the workplace didn't have a problem with it?

I have heard heard straight male co-workers describe in detail their sex lives, and yes, I did have a problem with it.


Offline Brandon

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2010, 11:39:23 PM »
Would there be a need for parades if people were not still beating homosexuals up simply for being homosexual?  If people were not killing homosexuals in some countries, just for being homosexual?  If families did not disown their children for being who they are?

That logic is a little bit flawed. I got beat up in highschool, Jr. high, and grade school for being a "nerd" and yet a pride rally/parade for such a thing would seem trite at best

Offline Torch

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Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2010, 11:44:54 PM »
That logic is a little bit flawed. I got beat up in highschool, Jr. high, and grade school for being a "nerd" and yet a pride rally/parade for such a thing would seem trite at best

As far as I know, "nerdsex" isn't against the law.

But homosexual sex acts are illegal in some parts of the world (and until recently, were here in the US). People are arrested, jailed and convicted of violating those laws every day.


Offline MasterMischief

Re: Why is acceptance still so difficult?
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2010, 11:46:39 PM »
Being a nerd today is not the same thing it was 15 years ago.  But you are right, it is hard to argue a parade would do anything.

I believe part of the purpose of parades is to raise awareness.  It is easier to attack someone when you do not see them as human.  The more you are aware of those different than you, the harder it is to not see them as human.  Can I prove this?  No.  Can you prove the parades do more harm?

Also, I believe the parades help those that do hide who they are realize they are not alone.  Surely, that is something all of us can relate to.