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Author Topic: Dispelling the Myth  (Read 1460 times)

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Offline Lady AyameTopic starter

Dispelling the Myth
« on: March 23, 2010, 08:08:46 AM »
RBG-Dispelling the Myth of Judeo-Christian Mythology 1 of 3

I saw this Vid and it's other two parts a few months ago, it rocked my reality. I had already been doubting my faith to an extent, this video pushed me off the edge of the airplane I had been hesitant to skydive out of for years. Floating aimlessly between wanting so hard to believe, and simple logic.
Honestly... I was depressed for a few days afterwards.
I was always told since I was little by my mommy that if I was a good girl, and was a good person and helped others that I would eventually be rewarded with eternal life in heaven with God and Jesus. (I wanted my own little golden cottage among the clouds)
I'm not sure exactly what truth there is in the video but it certainly opened my eyes (if somebody could tell me, or direct me to some hard facts I'd appreciate it) Honestly, I don't know what the truth is anymore at all.

Now that I realize organized religion is a lie, what to believe? my whole support system that has been keeping me on my feet through hard times has ended up being a total lie?
Perhaps I can believe in a god... perhaps I can believe he had some sort of son... But I feel like everything that I've done in the name of my religion was for nothing, lies all lies.
I can't even wear my collection of beautiful crosses anymore, they make me feel like I'm false advertising.

So take my grandfather for example, he's been such a faithful good and christian man all his life, when he dies will there be nothing for him? simply non-existance in exchange for a life of sacrifice and service to others?

I don't even know how to tell my mother, she's such a bible thumper (My dad is atcually Buddist and he's pretty apathetic towards other religions, he wouldn't come to church with us and I always wondered why)
My mom baptised me before I had a say in what I wanted to believe, she forced me to go to confession (which I honestly found traumatizing), watched carefully as I passed all my sunday school classes so I can go though communion, and hid 'The Da Vinci Code' from me until I was old enough to move out (I'm a big reader, and my friend lent it to me one day and she forbid me to read it and confiscated it). Dosen't it seem a little unfair?

What is she going to say when I don't baptise my children? Is she going to be okay with the fact that I want my kids to be old enough to make their own
choices about their beliefs before I start dipping them in magic water and feeding them mystical bread? dragging them to a congregation of people listening to a man preach about a book of fairy tales?

Honestly, it's been a few months since I've seen the video, but I'm still feeling like the ground is pulled out underneath me. My mom is visitng me now and she's been dragging me to church and christian stores, making me wear my
crosses, having me reciting the rosary with her, reading the bible and praying together. I feel dirty when she forces me to do these things.

I feel like a liar :( But I simply don't have the heart to tell her that I no longer believe.
I don't know if she'd kill me
or pray for me.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 08:21:49 AM by Lady Ayame »

Offline Serephino

Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2010, 10:52:10 AM »
What you're going through is perfectly normal.  I didn't watch the video, but I have read articles about many similar stories in the mythology of other religions.  It does make it hard to know what to believe.  I was dragged to church as a teenager and pressured by family to be baptized and join the church.  I never questioned that God exists, but the rest of it never felt right.  I never had much faith in the Bible. 

My advice would be to do a little soul searching.  Tune everyone else out and decide what feels right to you.  You can choose to join another religion, or just be a spiritual person guided by your own moral compass.  You can also continue to be a Christian, or become an Atheist if you really want to.  But personally, I wouldn't base my religious beliefs on an internet video.  If you want to talk to someone you can always pm me. 

I don't know what to tell you about your mother though.  It's not right for someone to shove their beliefs down another's throat.  It annoys the crap out of me.  People I've known with relatives like this have dealt with it a few ways.  Some say nothing and just put up with it for the sake of the relationship.  Some tell the person to back off and shut up.  And some just cut the person out of their lives completely. 

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2010, 11:49:29 AM »
I'm a Christian Anarchist I believe you need the Bible and God, nothing else. Then let God ,in my case, teach me through the Holy Spirit the only true minister.

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Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2010, 12:26:28 PM »
Ditto on what Sparkling Angel said, including the offer of PM support.  I didn't come into my Path until I got into college and discovered that there was more out there than Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and Muslim. 

My advice:  Unless you are currently pregnant, don't worry about your potential children's faith.  Take some time after your mother's visit is over, and just breathe.  What your grandfather has done, he did for his own reasons, most likely because he's a genuinely nice person - people who aren't genuinely nice tend to find some way out of the whole service and sacrifice thing.  He probably feels good doing what he does.  If a book of 'fairy tales' encouraged him to be nice, is that a bad thing?

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2010, 12:35:50 PM »
Honestly, it's been a few months since I've seen the video, but I'm still feeling like the ground is pulled out underneath me. My mom is visitng me now and she's been dragging me to church and christian stores, making me wear my
crosses, having me reciting the rosary with her, reading the bible and praying together. I feel dirty when she forces me to do these things.

I feel like a liar :( But I simply don't have the heart to tell her that I no longer believe.
I don't know if she'd kill me
or pray for me.

>_< I can completely empathize with this situation, and while it is important not to lie to your mother, it is also important to do your best not to let this harm your relationship with her. It sounds like you are struggling to find something to believe in, and you might just want to let your mother know that you are going through a crisis of faith, and ask her to respect that if she can? I hope that she can understand that faith without consideration is meaningless, what you believe has to be an informed decision.

At the same time I have to agree with Angel that an internet video is not the best basis for decisions of faith. If you are really interested in the similarities in myth structure and the meaning behind them go pick up some of Joseph Campbell's writings. If you want a more informed view of the gospels, the life of Christ, and the nature of the early church you might want to read one of Bart Ehrman. At the same time I would highly encourage you to try to read an exacting translation of the Bible on your own, apart from the pre-conceptions of the church and see how you, personally, understand it. Also take a look at The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth a.k.a. The Jefferson Bible, which contains the four gospels, edited by Thomas Jefferson to deal with the most glaring inconsistencies between accounts and to remove everything supernatural in an attempt to paint a picture of what Christianity actually says when you remove its trappings of divinity and the bias of the various authors.

There are many ways to approach Christianity, and many, many ways to approach religion in general. But no matter what you choose it is important for you to find something you think is believable and to be able to explain it and know it. Something you can't do if your parents made the decision for you. Even if you return to the Church, that is a decision you must make personally. I hope your mother can understand that, and will further understand that attempts to force you into going through the motions of something you don't believe will most likely just cause you to distance yourself further.

I also wanted to echo Sparkling Angel and Oniya's offer of PM support, if there is anything you don't feel comfortable talking out in open forum.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 12:41:56 PM by DarklingAlice »

Offline Jude

Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2010, 06:00:02 PM »
I saw this Vid and it's other two parts a few months ago, it rocked my reality. I had already been doubting my faith to an extent, this video pushed me off the edge of the airplane I had been hesitant to skydive out of for years. Floating aimlessly between wanting so hard to believe, and simple logic.
Honestly... I was depressed for a few days afterwards.
I was always told since I was little by my mommy that if I was a good girl, and was a good person and helped others that I would eventually be rewarded with eternal life in heaven with God and Jesus. (I wanted my own little golden cottage among the clouds)
I'm not sure exactly what truth there is in the video but it certainly opened my eyes (if somebody could tell me, or direct me to some hard facts I'd appreciate it) Honestly, I don't know what the truth is anymore at all.
It's definitely true that the Christ story bears a great deal of resemblance to other religious stories that came before it.  In fact, if you take a look at the cultural climate of the Roman Empire at the time when Jesus supposedly lived, there were a lot of other new religions that had characteristics in common with Christianity.  They're called "mystery religions" by Historians, and really shed some light on what sort of reality surrounded the formulation of Christianity.  Knowing about this can certainly bring one to wonder about the validity of their religion, and it probably should if you're open to reason.

Having said that, I stopped the video at around 4 minutes in or so because that's where it starts to stretch its logic.  The December 25th birth date was not mentioned in the bible, but was actually selected by the early church to overwrite the Pagan Celebration of the Winter Solstice.  When the stories of the new testament were first written there was no connection between the Winter Solstice and the "there kings" or any of the constellations.  Even if we were to accept that part of his logic, the connections are vague at best and could easily be considered coincidences.

What he claims could be right, but I think he's probably over-blowing Christianity's connection to astrology.
Now that I realize organized religion is a lie, what to believe? my whole support system that has been keeping me on my feet through hard times has ended up being a total lie?
Perhaps I can believe in a god... perhaps I can believe he had some sort of son... But I feel like everything that I've done in the name of my religion was for nothing, lies all lies.
I can't even wear my collection of beautiful crosses anymore, they make me feel like I'm false advertising.
You haven't learned that organized religion is a lie per se, simply learned something which puts a sizable dent in your view of the universe.  Christianity could still be true, and although you don't feel that way (and I don't either), you shouldn't take what other people have to say on the matter as testimony.  Do your own research.  Empower yourself with information.
So take my grandfather for example, he's been such a faithful good and christian man all his life, when he dies will there be nothing for him? simply non-existance in exchange for a life of sacrifice and service to others?
Nobody knows what's coming in the next life or if there even is one.  Anyone who tells you differently has far too much confidence in their own opinions and beliefs.  There's a lot of different lessons you could take from this, and I'll get to that at the end of my post.
I don't even know how to tell my mother, she's such a bible thumper (My dad is atcually Buddist and he's pretty apathetic towards other religions, he wouldn't come to church with us and I always wondered why)
My mom baptised me before I had a say in what I wanted to believe, she forced me to go to confession (which I honestly found traumatizing), watched carefully as I passed all my sunday school classes so I can go though communion, and hid 'The Da Vinci Code' from me until I was old enough to move out (I'm a big reader, and my friend lent it to me one day and she forbid me to read it and confiscated it). Dosen't it seem a little unfair?
It is unfair, but you have to realize she didn't do it because she wanted to hurt you.  My parents did similar things to me, but it was because they wanted to save my soul from eternal damnation.  They weren't right, but their heart was in the right place.
What is she going to say when I don't baptise my children? Is she going to be okay with the fact that I want my kids to be old enough to make their own
choices about their beliefs before I start dipping them in magic water and feeding them mystical bread? dragging them to a congregation of people listening to a man preach about a book of fairy tales?
Whatever you do say, you need to be diplomatic about... I would personally stress wanting to let your children make their own choices because you believe it's important that they become who they are meant to be by their natural personalities and not who you want them to be.
Honestly, it's been a few months since I've seen the video, but I'm still feeling like the ground is pulled out underneath me. My mom is visitng me now and she's been dragging me to church and christian stores, making me wear my
crosses, having me reciting the rosary with her, reading the bible and praying together. I feel dirty when she forces me to do these things.
I think you should talk to her and explain to her that you're just not feeling it anymore.  Don't tell her you believe that god does not exist, don't repudiate or insult her points of view, just be honest and say that you've lost your personal connection to god (which is the truth--she doesn't need to know that it's because you're no longer sure if that god exists).  If she becomes sad, just explain to her that you're sorry, you don't feel the way you do to hurt her feelings, and it's just how you feel at the time.  There's nothing that can change your inclinations and nothing that she says can affect your "intuitive" state to make you accept what she says.  Remind her that life is long and you have quite a few years ahead of you in which you intend to think about the world and that you may some day come back into connection with god.  Who knows, you might.
I feel like a liar :( But I simply don't have the heart to tell her that I no longer believe.
I don't know if she'd kill me
or pray for me.
Above all, it's important to be diplomatic, reasonable, and express your uncertainty (rather than disbelief).

This is what I think you should do:
1)  Start off by reading a bit more about Christianity.
Wikipedia will do just fine.  Read about the Council of Nicea, Constantine, the Crusades, and the Apocrypha.  All you really need to do is scan a bit of historical information about them.

2)  Learn a bit more about religious history.
Akhenaten was one of the first monotheists in recorded history, who also worshipped a sun god.  Learn about errors in biblical history in relation to the Hebrews.  Read a bit about Ancient Sumeria and the Mesopotamian City State of Ur in particular.  The Epic of Gilgamesh has some interesting Noah Parables, and there's also some stories that explain the flood in historical context.

3)  Learn about philosophy
There is still truth without god.  I think existentialism would appeal to you and give you a source of hope despite your new revelations.  I personally found Utilitarianism comforting.  I always enjoy reading the works of Agnostics, and I even find the religious-philosophy of Deism incredibly attractive.  Many of the United States' founding fathers were Deists, actually.

If you're anything like me, you'll find that the more you know, the more confident you'll feel about your beliefs.  Being grounded in self-discovered fact will prevent you from experiencing a repetition of what you did with Christianity (adhering to that belief, then discovering it had some holes).  Take this as an opportunity to explore the world around you and search for the truth now that you've cast off what you believe was never true to begin with.

Most importantly of all, try not to become bitter.  It's easy to stop believing and become an antagonistic atheist, I think it happens to most people who lose their faith initially.  However, most of us also eventually get over that bitterness and find our own version of secular-humanism that gives our life warmth, color, and meaning.  This isn't the end of everything, it's the beginning of a new intellectual odyssey for you.

Congratulations. :P

EDIT:  Also, one of the first things you could do is check out Religulous and the Penn & Teller Bullshit episode on the Bible.

Penn & Teller Bullshit - The Bible - Fact or Fiction Part 1 - I think you'd like this.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 06:02:18 PM by Jude »

Offline Torch

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Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2010, 06:25:35 PM »
Having said that, I stopped the video at around 4 minutes in or so because that's where it starts to stretch its logic.  The December 25th birth date was not mentioned in the bible, but was actually selected by the early church to overwrite the Pagan Celebration of the Winter Solstice.  When the stories of the new testament were first written there was no connection between the Winter Solstice and the "there kings" or any of the constellations.  Even if we were to accept that part of his logic, the connections are vague at best and could easily be considered coincidences.

This is very true. Pope Leo picked the date in the 4th Century because it was nine months from the date of the Annunciation, which is celebrated March 25th.

Many theologians and Biblical historians believe Christ was actually born sometime in the spring.


Offline Asuras

Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2010, 08:03:35 PM »
The rest of the movie is more entertaining.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2010, 12:20:36 AM »
Okay, now that I actually watch these videos, allot of things in them are just inaccurate:

-First I don't know where the video-maker is getting the December 25 birthdate from on any of these.

-I don't think there is any indication that Isis was a virgin when she bore Horus.

-Dionysus was actually born of Zeus' thigh after his mother was killed. And there was no indication that Semele was a virgin.

-I do not think that Attis' mother impregnated  by an almond that fell from a tree grown by a penis really parallels the situation of Christ's mother. Also Attis died by boar and was never resurrected.

-I don't think that Dionysus was ever called "King of Kings", he was definitely not a Christ-figure.

-The long list that scrolls up lists names of gods that seem really really big stretches. E.g. Can anyone think of a good link between Christ and Thor? Hammers, maybe?

-The astrology stuff seems a real stretch. I am not an astrology buff by any means, but I find the idea a little weird that all of these myriad nations across great spans of time would have a shared astrological system. And that numerous world religions are actually complex astrological metaphors.

And those are just the ones I can catch at a cursory viewing.

There are many interesting parallels between Christianity and other religions, but they are best found in the works of Joseph Campbell, Frazer's Golden Bough, a comparative mythology/religion class or other well researched sources with better visuals.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 12:22:18 AM by DarklingAlice »

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Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 12:42:43 AM »
The typical 'connection' between Thor and Christ is the hammer pendants.  A much better parallel would be between Odin and Christ when Odin hung on the tree for 9 days and nights to obtain the runes.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2010, 12:58:45 AM »
The typical 'connection' between Thor and Christ is the hammer pendants.  A much better parallel would be between Odin and Christ when Odin hung on the tree for 9 days and nights to obtain the runes.

Agreed, even though their motivations may have differed more than a little. Plus if I recall correctly they both had their sides pierced with spears.

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Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2010, 01:36:00 AM »
I went and watched the rest of the Zeitgeist movie... it is quite alarmist. I found myself nodding in places, but I found myself balking in other places. I found the 9/11 clips to be ... creepily parallel in some places to my own musings, and the section on the national reserve bank is just stomach-turning. This sort of thing is worse than Michael Moore - at least he actually seems crazy on the surface. This movie... it commits several of the logical fallacies but it's pretty insidious.

Made me want to see the movie they keep quoting. I think it was "Networks" or "Broadcast" or sommat.

Offline Lilias

Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2010, 02:49:42 AM »
-I don't think there is any indication that Isis was a virgin when she bore Horus.

There isn't. Isis assembled the pieces of Osiris' body together, provided a golden (or, according to other sources) ivory phallus for the original, which she was unable to find, and reanimated him long enough to have sex with him and conceive Horus. If anything, that must be the one god in history conceived out of necrophilia...

Quote
-Dionysus was actually born of Zeus' thigh after his mother was killed. And there was no indication that Semele was a virgin.

She wasn't. He was conceived the traditional way; Zeus was notorious for not leaving anything in a skirt unmolested, after all.

Quote
-I don't think that Dionysus was ever called "King of Kings", he was definitely not a Christ-figure.

He wasn't. His legend has it he was killed and brought back to life a number of times, but the parallel ends there.

Quote
-The astrology stuff seems a real stretch. I am not an astrology buff by any means, but I find the idea a little weird that all of these myriad nations across great spans of time would have a shared astrological system. And that numerous world religions are actually complex astrological metaphors.

Given how different Western astrology is even today from, say, Vedic, Chinese, or Mayan, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2010, 05:10:33 AM »
I thought the Dionysian mystery cults also brought about the idea of 'believe in me and you will enter heaven' trope.

...while the Zeitgeist movies present points that themselves are important (Banks having too much control, common origins of current major religions, etc) its general hold on facts is so slim that I'd say they are actively damaging to watch. There are plenty of cool and creepy parallels between Hinduism and Judaism to go into, Akhenaten's attempted reformation of Egyptian faith and the parallels between the Yahweh-El merger and Aten-Ra, the evolution of Mithraism into Christian rites, the use of holidays and placement of churches to displace native religions... you could write a novel and not even touch on the flood myth.

Offline Lilias

Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2010, 06:06:06 AM »
I thought the Dionysian mystery cults also brought about the idea of 'believe in me and you will enter heaven' trope.

The Dionysian cult was, in the pre-classic and classic times, definitely cthonic, observing the cycle of death and rebirth through the wine-making process. It did take on a more mystical aspect towards the Hellenistic era, probably under more Eastern influences, and in the end Dionysus did make the Olympian pantheon, displacing Hestia. We don't know much about the Dionysian Mysteries, since the rites and teachings were oathbound, but the general consensus is that Dionysian worship aimed at integrating the bestial aspect of the psyche (illustrated as the god's shapeshifting ability) into the conscious human self. That does count as transcendence, but not really the kind that Christianity advocates.

Long and rather biased, but a good intro.

Offline Jude

Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2010, 03:36:17 PM »
All good points.

The important thing here, in my opinion, is not to let yourself fall victim to the same thing that you did with Christianity.  Do not accept other people's points of views uncritically.  Research, read, analyze.

Open-mindedness

You might want to consider watching all of QualiaSoup's youtube videos.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Dispelling the Myth
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2010, 01:44:44 AM »
I remember when I lost my faith.  I just kept raising more and more questions and the answers I was offered made little sense.  It was scarey.  I was living with my grandmother at the time, and she was very devout.  I never told her.

I do not envy being where you are now.  The only advice I would offer is that you must be true to yourself and find your own way.