You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 09, 2016, 11:14:58 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Anarchy....Thoughts?  (Read 5310 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BraiochTopic starter

  • Devil. Mad Scientist. King of Debauchery. Brat Prince. Duke of Snark. Warlock of Orgies.
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Imfinewhydoyouask? Canyoutastetime?Ican
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Anarchy....Thoughts?
« on: December 09, 2009, 01:52:47 AM »
Now before I begin, I'm going to start this off with a bit of acknowledgment. I am aware when it comes to politics, especially when it comes to the topic I'm about to bring in here, people can get quite heated, and as much they can get a little out of control. From what I have seen, a majority of the people on here are capable of being mature about this and able to keep their heads and have an adult conversation about this topic.

As such I will be keeping an eye on it nevertheless, if it gets out of control, I'm going to cut it off, lock it up, and be sorry I ever got it started. Plus no one wants a admin or mod on them, so please behave. I'm posting this as a means to debate a topic, because I find you can learn a lot from a debate. I may not able to completely counter a person's point in their statement or rebuttal, but that's all the better for me, because than it drives me to look it up and be able to catch it the next time around. So basically let's try to learn from each other and gain some new perspectives, so let's be adults ne?

With that out of the way, here goes....

Now by direct definition, I am an Anarcho-Communist. Yes I threw communism in there. Basically that means that I believe in the dissolution of formal governments that we have now, and believe that things should be run by the people, through the people, actually for the people. Leaders are unnecessary for a country or group of people to be able to operate smoothly.

I find that without a government that generally always ends up being corrupt, as history has generally shown. A people can be found to lead themselves without such things as we generally have now.

Now I could go into more, but I'll open the floor up a bit first before I go into other points that I have.

Now what say you all?

Offline Revolverman

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 03:32:42 AM »
As someone who hates governments in general, I can see where Anarchists come from, but in almost every example in human history Anarchy has been temporary, and always ended with an even worse government then before. So I believe in a strictly controlled government, to exist basically to keep a worse one from taking power.

Offline BraiochTopic starter

  • Devil. Mad Scientist. King of Debauchery. Brat Prince. Duke of Snark. Warlock of Orgies.
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Imfinewhydoyouask? Canyoutastetime?Ican
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 03:43:15 AM »
Well this is mainly due to the fact that people believe that a new government should have to take it's place. People do not need a ruling body to keep them in place, or to keep order. If anything a strictly controlled government, much like our own, does not run as well as people like. It's corrupt, runs roughshod over civil liberties, and all in all creates dissent and problems within society.

I see it more as people dictating, together, not through a screwed up system that controls itself, what happens in the country. Where a place isn't run by the cream of the crop, but by those in the majority, those who have to work hard for their dollar, those how know what it means to struggle.

Offline Revolverman

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 03:59:17 AM »
Well this is mainly due to the fact that people believe that a new government should have to take it's place.


The problem is there always going to be people who think that, and those who exploit it for their own power.

Offline mannik

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 04:12:42 AM »
As someone who hates governments in general, I can see where Anarchists come from, but in almost every example in human history Anarchy has been temporary, and always ended with an even worse government then before. So I believe in a strictly controlled government, to exist basically to keep a worse one from taking power.

The Native Americans operated on a form of anarchy for many generations before the white man showed up and changed things. They can serve as proof that it is at least possible to live peacefully with the absence of organized government dictating the various aspects of life it now controls.
 
 

Offline Talia

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2009, 04:15:25 AM »
[
Basically that means that I believe in the dissolution of formal governments that we have now, and believe that things should be run by the people, through the people, actually for the people. Leaders are unnecessary for a country or group of people to be able to operate smoothly.

Now what say you all?


http://prosandcons.us/?cat=72 (an interesting site)

mmm.. In any form of governing body, political power would effectually rest with a small elite segment of society, whether distinguished by wealth, family or military powers. I doubt it would be fair and balanced for all. With the population being what it is and all the different cultural backgrounds, let alone belief systems, one government for all just won't make sense. Some people are just as corrupt as the government. Therefore put a group of them together, "Wouldn't we have have the same thing, people looking after a few, but with there own interests at heart first?"
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 04:16:33 AM by A Welcomed Decoration »

Offline Revolverman

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 04:57:20 AM »

The Native Americans operated on a form of anarchy for many generations before the white man showed up and changed things. They can serve as proof that it is at least possible to live peacefully with the absence of organized government dictating the various aspects of life it now controls.

They also had tiny tribes that were almost just extend families, also that's not true, as the Iroquois confederacy was very much a "Government".

Offline BraiochTopic starter

  • Devil. Mad Scientist. King of Debauchery. Brat Prince. Duke of Snark. Warlock of Orgies.
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Imfinewhydoyouask? Canyoutastetime?Ican
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 05:07:23 AM »
Well those people are "corrupt" because of a government that supports and condones a system filled with greed and selfishness. How are people supposed to actually learn anything about cooperation if they are taught in everyday life to worry only about making more money, to beat the other guy by any means possible?

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 08:19:21 AM »
Oddly I'm sympathetic as a Christian I can look to the first followers after the Jesus left in Acts and they did live communally and did good to others. It was really when they started organizational efforts to form a central church ,government, that the great experiment went to heck. Look at the Roman Catholic Church and its bloody history for that.

And during the period of Judges there were no Kings in Israel but judges that settled disputes and defended the people, God actually tried to disuade the Jewsih people from wanting Kings like pagans had. (Just quoting the Bible and Jewish sources not saying its accurate or anything just noting Christianity and Jewish roots could make a case to support some form of loose government or something akin to what was stated.)

On the other hand can we drop the systems now and go to that? I don't think it would work sadly.

Offline BraiochTopic starter

  • Devil. Mad Scientist. King of Debauchery. Brat Prince. Duke of Snark. Warlock of Orgies.
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Imfinewhydoyouask? Canyoutastetime?Ican
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 08:38:41 AM »
Hmmm, a good point that I ask myself constantly. At this point, the public is not ready for such a step, the system is too ingrained into their being for them to be fully ready to give it up. As it is, it would require people to start to see how little they need their government, and on the flip side how much their government needs them in all reality.

So no, people aren't ready at this point, but I certainly hope to find like minded people, or at least hope that some people see the truths in what I see. It's about slowly building up and preparing people, as much as having the personal belief as well.

Offline VainMe

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 11:02:59 AM »
Hello all  :-) very interesting topic
I am an anarchist and i've done several protest.
isn't just the government that bother us we also fight against the capitalists (well.... they are supported by the govenment :) )

 
Quote
At this point, the public is not ready for such a step
You might be right but nowdays you already see chaos, cops killing 15 years old protesters, politics do whatever they want, you see murders and in most of the times the police doesn't solve anything or trow an innocent man into jail which is worst.
we might never be in anarchy, but at least we try to change some stuff, like we did in 1999 seattle :) that was a huge win...  :D.

once again i must say interesting topic

Offline Zakharra

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 12:21:21 PM »
 I don't think you can have a modern civilization without a government and corporations. Anarchy would make it nearly impossible to build and maintain a modern high tech civilization. Nothing we have would be possible without a government to use taxes to build and maintain roads, services. A government is needed to set the price of money to pay for police/fire departments. They also pass laws that are enforced to a degree that keeps in check the selfish and destructive needs and desires of the human species.

   Corporations would need a for of currency in order to make and sell a product. Plus they need to be able to pay for  goods and raw materials from all over the world. Without a government to keep a corporation in check, they would eventually be a government since nothing would be able to stop them. Some corporations would  likely institute a form of debt indenturement/slavery if it suited their needs.

 The same could be said of certain groups/religions too.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 04:28:12 PM by Zakharra »

Offline goalt

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 04:19:06 PM »
Government performs many important roles. Protection, infrastructure, regulation, laws. It is needed for these things.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 04:43:01 PM »
Well those people are "corrupt" because of a government that supports and condones a system filled with greed and selfishness. How are people supposed to actually learn anything about cooperation if they are taught in everyday life to worry only about making more money, to beat the other guy by any means possible?

  The people would be corrupt anyways. Whether or not a government is there or not. Without a government structure in place, some of them would accumulate power anyways. By persuasion or by force.  Without a government, it would be entirely too easy for a modern day barbarian or strongman to take over an area. It takes organization to resist someone like that.

 On one hand, the world population would be a lot lower so something like that might be possible. I don't think it's desirable though. Not at the cost of 30% or more of the world's population being killed. A functioning modern society depends on a high degree of organization to work smoothly.

Offline Inkidu

  • E's Resident Girlomancer, Dedicated Philogynist, The Compartive of a Superlative, SLG's Sammich Life-Giver
  • Lord
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Location: In a staring contest with the Void.
  • Gender: Male
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 06:24:11 PM »
Anarchy would never work. :\

Offline VainMe

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2009, 06:36:03 PM »
Government performs many important roles. Protection, infrastructure, regulation, laws. It is needed for these things.
Does it does it really? when was the last time the government protected you, when was the last time a police officer protected you?

i believe we would be better with anarchy  :-) ... well it's my opinion i respect yours to

Offline BraiochTopic starter

  • Devil. Mad Scientist. King of Debauchery. Brat Prince. Duke of Snark. Warlock of Orgies.
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Imfinewhydoyouask? Canyoutastetime?Ican
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2009, 07:01:48 PM »
There may be people who would attempt to take advantage of it, but it's up to the people to take care of such a matter. Militia's still would exist, but be maintained by the people. The key to it is to make sure that the people are the maintainers of everything, not a single person or small group of people who deem themselves. Organization can still exist, what you think is that we need leaders when in reality people are quite capable of taking care of themselves.

Also corporations do nothing but offer overpriced items that cost not even half to make what they sell it for, pay off the government to influence the way laws and policies are made, and view themselves above the law. People are just as able to maintain places like that, without making a hierarchy filled with unfair wages and power management that crate an unjust system that screws the lesser man.

Offline Inkidu

  • E's Resident Girlomancer, Dedicated Philogynist, The Compartive of a Superlative, SLG's Sammich Life-Giver
  • Lord
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Location: In a staring contest with the Void.
  • Gender: Male
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 07:10:08 PM »
Does it does it really? when was the last time the government protected you, when was the last time a police officer protected you?

i believe we would be better with anarchy  :-) ... well it's my opinion i respect yours to
So you think you would live better in a world where I could walk up to you off the street kill you, go to your house and kill everyone you know and love for no reason and get away with it?

With government (now it doesn't always work I admit, but nothing's perfect) the fear of going to a prison is a great deterrent. So next time you think, "When was the last time a police officer ever helped me?" think, "Well he's there and hopefully putting some lawbreaker behind bars."

Anarchy doesn't work because it's not government it's the lack thereof.

Even what BlackSantaBraioch is suggesting some for of government it's called Paramilitarism. Someone would have to lead the militia.

Offline BraiochTopic starter

  • Devil. Mad Scientist. King of Debauchery. Brat Prince. Duke of Snark. Warlock of Orgies.
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Imfinewhydoyouask? Canyoutastetime?Ican
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2009, 07:44:57 PM »
The people would lead it, I already stated I'm an anarcho-communist. To that the people would be in charge for what happened to them, and keeping order. I'm not saying that I want chaos, that's not what I stand by. Now there should be order, but that doesn't require a government, or a bunch of leaders to tell us what to do, or dictate our lives.

Anarchy means a lack of leaders, not chaos and THAT is what I believe in. Having a place where I don't have a group of people leeching money from myself and my loved ones, where people actually have a say in what happens.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 07:55:00 PM »
I would be interested in seeing an anarchist come up with a water management scheme that relied on no one needing to follow any sort of orders that would not result in humanity's near extinction.

Edit: I don't want to seem too antagonistic, but you won't find a successful society that failed to manage its water, and the greatest empires - from China to Rome to America - possessed the finest water management capabilities of their time. How would an anarchist society react to something on the scale of the Dust Bowl?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 08:03:03 PM by Vekseid »

Offline BraiochTopic starter

  • Devil. Mad Scientist. King of Debauchery. Brat Prince. Duke of Snark. Warlock of Orgies.
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Imfinewhydoyouask? Canyoutastetime?Ican
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2009, 08:14:07 PM »
You're not being antagonistic, you're making me think about my stance, and that's what I want to do, so in all reality I should be thanking all of you really.

Certain things like power, water and management of various goods is as with the militia, it's led by the people. I'm not condoning mass chaos and lack of organization. As an anarchist I'm against Hierarchical authority, not all authority. It's about a collective organization with delegated tasks in which none have more precedence or authority over the other. It's all about working  together to achieve a place without having who's better or who's worth more, where a value of person isn't dictated by their status in life.

It's equality, and in that society the people who have knowledge of water management are no less important or more than the other tasks that people would have. Also, I don't think our government dealt with the dust bowl all tha well, people had to move from the dust bowl because the government had gotten themselves into such a rough spot with the wars. In all reality, no form of people will ever be really prepared for something outside of their realm of control, so I believe that points a bit moot, but that could just be me.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2009, 09:17:39 PM »
...when other governments fail to address mass desertification, people die by the millions. Half a million displaced citizens and a six-year complete turnaround is 'not at all well'? Oi. The thing is, farmers needed incentives to make the changes needed - changes that worked. If left to their own devices, the Great American Desert would become a real desert and something we might still be fighting today.

It's not a moot point. You say 'led by the people' - what does that mean, exactly? Does that mean everyone votes on every possible issue? Does it mean that the people assigned to regulate and manage water and water-related activities have the same say in water distribution as the people who massively outnumber them?

Or are they voted into office or appointed by someone who is?

And none of this addresses pathological personalities at all.

Offline Serephino

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2009, 09:58:02 PM »
Basic human nature would make Anarchy impossible.  People are greedy.  Look at the Capitalist mess we are in.  This happened because corperations were pretty much left to themselves to do whatever they wanted.  Well, what they wanted to do was get rich.  Elected Government officials can be bought because of human greed.

So let's say we do have a system run by the people.  And let's say everyone votes on everything.  Well, what if I have a neighbor that wanted the vote to go a certain way.  What's to stop him from coming to me and buying my vote?  Maybe he's in charge of food distribution and we make a deal that I get my pick of stuff first if I do what he wants?  Naturally that would be very appealing to me.  So how would that be different than what we have now?

All throughout history there have always been a select few opportunistic people that do whatever they feel they have to to gain power and influence.  That's how Monarchies started.  You'd have one charismatic guy with an army.  The local lords would swear fealty to this guy and add their own resources.  So you'd have a network, or rather a kingdom, that was controlled by one person with all the resources because he promised a bunch of guys leadership and protection. 

There are two types of humans; leaders and followers.  The majority of us are followers.  Basically, no matter what you do, no matter how you set things up, there are going to be greedy individuals that will figure out a way to work the system for their own benefit. 

Hell, you've got people drowning in credit card debt so they can have the nice houses and pretty toys like their neighbors.  We all want shiny pretty things.  We're all judged by what we have.  The world is already full of dishonesty.  Right now under the current government it's illegal for someone to pretend to be me and steal all my money.  They do it anyway... but that's beside the point. 

So what would your system do about corrupt people, because you know there will always be some around no matter what.

Offline BraiochTopic starter

  • Devil. Mad Scientist. King of Debauchery. Brat Prince. Duke of Snark. Warlock of Orgies.
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Imfinewhydoyouask? Canyoutastetime?Ican
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2009, 10:10:01 PM »
As I stated earlier, we live in a society that from birth teaches us that we are meant to be like that. From the minute we have to start learning about to coexist with others, we are told to be nice, but yet at the same time we are shown to be ruthless, cut throat and extremely selfish. People only act as they do because the capitalist system we live in creates an environment that pits neighbor versus neighbor, dictates who has more value, and what is worth more.

We live in a world where we are taught to struggle for every last penny just to blow it all on things that the cream of the crop have. We are shown that by any means possible, including screwing other people over, we should achieve to be the best.

It is in what our society teaches that people learn such behavior, we are not born like that.

Offline Serephino

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2009, 10:43:40 PM »
What about Puritans?  They really didn't have much of a government.  They lived under the laws of England, but that was an ocean away.  They were taught from birth to live a Godly life, and yet... the Witch Trials...  Need I say more?  Godly Christian people who had it drilled into their brains that greed was a one way ticket to hell selling out their neghbors for their land. 

I'm really tired now, but if I think of any more examples I'll get back to you.