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Author Topic: Anarchy....Thoughts?  (Read 5307 times)

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Offline Serephino

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2009, 07:59:20 PM »
I think the answer to a mass scale of the ideal as well as the answer to Veks, "led by the people" question is direct democracy. Meaning and yes, direct democracy you'd have administration, made up of ordinary people (who would be educated in their role as administrators.) Administration is not the same as government for the record.
 As in, everyone who is affected directly by an issue will vote on it, and then, if their decision is part of a larger body, they elect a delegate and send them to a congress with the group's decision, and then the delegates all vote and the delegates would be able to be instantly recalled if they didn't carry out their group's wishes. (they'd have little reason to disobey their mandate, however, since they would always come from the community that they were representing)

Led by people, for the people, not this crap that they do now >.>

It throws out old and poisonous rules for the sake of new ones that actually give the people actual say. It's not about throwing out the rule book and saying "screw it, rape, pillage and massacre to your heart's desire, do what you will everyone!" There is a system in place for it all, as I have been explaining.

That sounds quite a bit like what we've got in place now. The only difference I see is the immediate recall, though that's possible with the current system too.  Congressman are supposed to represent their constituents' interests and wishes.  They just don't.  A big part of the problem is no one wants to be bothered.  I don't see that ever changing either. 

Like I said, we humans, like most social animals, like to follow a hierarchy.  Most people don't want to think too much.  Ignorance is bliss.  Nobody wants to get involved.   

Offline Revolverman

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2009, 08:10:26 PM »
Unfortunately that's not possible to do and keep a modern society. You have to have organized governments. To set monetary value, to have trade agreements, set laws, to have a military, infastructure (roads, bridges, railroads,dams, electrical grid, communication and the like). Without any of that, long range trading would die. Companies need the raw materials to make their products and in todays world, trade is truely a global thing now.   Unless you want to return to a pre industrial style of living.

I don't propose going back to City States mind you, I'm just saying there are many things the Federal Government does that would be best handled by the State/Provence/Prefect/ or city.


Also, as a believer of commodity backed money, I don't think any government should be setting anything monetarily.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2009, 09:01:00 PM »
That sounds quite a bit like what we've got in place now. The only difference I see is the immediate recall, though that's possible with the current system too.  Congressman are supposed to represent their constituents' interests and wishes.  They just don't.  A big part of the problem is no one wants to be bothered.  I don't see that ever changing either. 

Like I said, we humans, like most social animals, like to follow a hierarchy.  Most people don't want to think too much.  Ignorance is bliss.  Nobody wants to get involved.   


 Term limits would help with some of that. It would prevent a 'Congressional' class from forming since people wouldn't be able to spend 20-30-40-50 years or more in the same office. A lot of those people come from wealthy famlies and use their contacts to become more wealthy. Hardly any of them are really 'for the people'. 

 Term limits would eventually push out the good peole, but they'd also push out the bad ones as well.

   

Offline Zakharra

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2009, 09:19:18 PM »
I don't propose going back to City States mind you, I'm just saying there are many things the Federal Government does that would be best handled by the State/Provence/Prefect/ or city.


Also, as a believer of commodity backed money, I don't think any government should be setting anything monetarily.

 True. The states can do some things better than the federal government. The OP's idea doesn't work well at the state level though either. At the state level, there are many different cities that have their own interests.  You have urban and rural areas, the different geographical regions within the state. All of them competing for their share of power and influence.

 Take the state of California for example. You have the northern part, the central and southern part. The northern part is rural, the central is a mix of  large urban areas and rural. The south the same. Most of the state lives in the cities. Sacramento, San Francisco, LA, San Diego and a few others holding  most of the population. How would the people in the cities know what's best for the people who live in the rural areas?

 The system the OP is envisioning would fall apart in a situation like that since there is such a different view of opinion.

   Commodity backed money What exactly is that? The seller and buyer set the price? If so, in what currency? What would they use for money? They'd have to agree that some sort of money had a set value that isn't likely to change. Corporations would be terrible at setting the value of any money since they could use that power to set prices that benefit them. They could set prices for the consumer that would put you into a form of debt slavery.  Without a government to set the price of any money, it would quickly grow out of control.

Offline Revolverman

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2009, 10:37:54 PM »


   Commodity backed money What exactly is that? The seller and buyer set the price? If so, in what currency? What would they use for money? They'd have to agree that some sort of money had a set value that isn't likely to change. Corporations would be terrible at setting the value of any money since they could use that power to set prices that benefit them. They could set prices for the consumer that would put you into a form of debt slavery.  Without a government to set the price of any money, it would quickly grow out of control.

I mean money backed by things like Gold, Silver, or other valuable metals.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2009, 04:05:20 AM »
I mean money backed by things like Gold, Silver, or other valuable metals.

 And who sets the value of that metal? When gold was the standard currency, governments set the standard to which they were worth. It would be a bad idea to have each state set it's own monetary value. Something like that has to be set at a Federal level. Not at the local level since any large corporation would be forced to deal with hundreds if not thousands of different currencies world wide.

Offline Revolverman

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2009, 08:53:07 AM »
And who sets the value of that metal? When gold was the standard currency, governments set the standard to which they were worth. It would be a bad idea to have each state set it's own monetary value. Something like that has to be set at a Federal level. Not at the local level since any large corporation would be forced to deal with hundreds if not thousands of different currencies world wide.

It wouldn't be set by ANY government, the price of the metals would be set by the market.

Offline Darkcide

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2009, 10:56:12 AM »
Anarchy doesn't work, and it can't work. Human nature won't allow it to. You have to have some form of order, and you can't just have everyone trying to instill order because not everyone has the same set values and morals. I believe in capitalism, just it hasn't been done right. Not everyone has the same advantages, and in a perfect society I feel that everyone would at least start on somewhat even grounding in relation to school. That if you didn't succeed it'd be on your head and yours alone. I grew up without having much, and I graduated from Detroit Public Schools so I know how uneven the circumstances between the haves and have nots are. However I cannot support communism, because I believe the money I make should belong to me and me alone. I work for a living, and I'm currently in college as a double major. I feel that if I have put in that much time and effort throughout my life that I am entitled for something to show for my work. So in my perfect society, everyone would have a mindset like this and contribute to society.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2009, 11:30:28 AM »
It wouldn't be set by ANY government, the price of the metals would be set by the market.

 Set by the corporations then. You must trust them to do the right thing instread of looking out for the bottom line. Unless there is some form of control set by the governments you will have the corporations setting the prices to their wants and plans. That, my friend, is a very bad idea.

Offline Revolverman

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2009, 03:47:21 PM »
Gold isn't set by corporations. It's set by supply and demand, and the strength of currency, and as we can see, what we have now isn't working in the slightest.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2009, 04:23:39 PM »

Offline Asuras

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2009, 06:53:27 PM »
Quote from: Revolverman
Gold isn't set by corporations. It's set by supply and demand, and the strength of currency, and as we can see, what we have now isn't working in the slightest.

The gold standard was worse because governments could do very little to stimulate the economy when recessions hit. The Great Depression, for instance, occurred under the gold standard; recovery in most countries didn't begin until the gold standard was abandoned, as indicated here. The so-called "Long Depression" didn't end until people struck gold in Alaska and South Africa.

Offline Revolverman

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2009, 07:02:30 PM »
Governments should do nothing when depressions hit. When governments pump money into economies, all they do is boost inflation, and as such make it look like things are getting better, but in fact, people are losing real wealth because money is progressively getting more and more worthless.

Offline Serephino

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2009, 07:38:20 PM »
Anarchy doesn't work, and it can't work. Human nature won't allow it to. You have to have some form of order, and you can't just have everyone trying to instill order because not everyone has the same set values and morals. I believe in capitalism, just it hasn't been done right. Not everyone has the same advantages, and in a perfect society I feel that everyone would at least start on somewhat even grounding in relation to school. That if you didn't succeed it'd be on your head and yours alone. I grew up without having much, and I graduated from Detroit Public Schools so I know how uneven the circumstances between the haves and have nots are. However I cannot support communism, because I believe the money I make should belong to me and me alone. I work for a living, and I'm currently in college as a double major. I feel that if I have put in that much time and effort throughout my life that I am entitled for something to show for my work. So in my perfect society, everyone would have a mindset like this and contribute to society.

You make a very good point.  Not everyone has the same morals.  That's something that hasn't changed much throughout history either.  Communism does not work.  We've seen it time and time again. 

Offline Vekseid

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2009, 02:05:33 PM »
I split off responses to Revolverman's post and such to this thread : )

Offline VainMe

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2009, 04:00:48 PM »
So you think you would live better in a world where I could walk up to you off the street kill you, go to your house and kill everyone you know and love for no reason and get away with it?

With government (now it doesn't always work I admit, but nothing's perfect) the fear of going to a prison is a great deterrent. So next time you think, "When was the last time a police officer ever helped me?" think, "Well he's there and hopefully putting some lawbreaker behind bars."

Anarchy doesn't work because it's not government it's the lack thereof.

Even what BlackSantaBraioch is suggesting some for of government it's called Paramilitarism. Someone would have to lead the militia.

If i walk on the street i can grab a gun shoot a guy no one is seeing and walk away, believe me no one would find me

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2009, 04:38:34 PM »
Social convention is wonderful for crime prevention.

Offline BCdan

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2010, 10:16:58 PM »
Here are my thoughts.  Anarchy is not a form of government or even a lack of government.  It is merely a state of government, often when one government is failing and being replaced by a new one.  Anarchy simply cannot stand naturally on its own for any extended period of time.

There are two forms of government.  Oligarchy and Republic.  Rule by the most powerful group of people or rule by law/constitution. Socialism, libertarianism and all those definitions are just variables on the two main forms of government. 

 

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Anarchy....Thoughts?
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2010, 02:38:27 AM »
Another option to look at anarchism in religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism