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Author Topic: The Civil War in four minutes.  (Read 1681 times)

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Offline VekseidTopic starter


Offline Ket

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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2009, 10:23:24 PM »
That's awesome!

Offline Caeli

Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2009, 11:41:11 PM »
I thoroughly enjoyed that. :-) It was cool watching the fluid transformations of territory.

Offline VekseidTopic starter

Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2009, 04:19:46 AM »

Offline kylie

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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2009, 05:01:58 PM »

Eeep, the casualty figures.  It really was long and bloody.

Nice map and music. 

Now imo, if the non-urban South would just move on politically.


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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2009, 10:43:11 PM »
Eeep, the casualty figures.  It really was long and bloody.

Nice map and music. 

Now imo, if the non-urban South would just move on politically.
Maybe you should be a little more mindful, that last bit if fairly offensive.

Back on topic.

South could have never won it not one cannon or arms factory and their were more people in New York than in the majority of the South. Plus they were fighting defensively. Can't win a war like that.

Offline The Overlord

Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2009, 11:08:08 PM »


South could have never won it not one cannon or arms factory and their were more people in New York than in the majority of the South. Plus they were fighting defensively. Can't win a war like that.

Which at least for a while was balanced by bumbling commanders early in the war (mis)leading USA forces, and the CSA having some damnedly effective and talented commanders. Once it came down to sheer length of reach and attrition, the south was on its way out.


The American Civil War was the first modern war; it saw the use of landmines and mortars, the first iron-clads that would lead to battleships in the next century, and the first combat submarine.

Unfortunately, it was a fairly high-tech war fought with virtually medieval medicine. Battlefield and hospital conditions were horrific. Casualties were guaranteed to be terrible for both sides. Nice find, Veks.

Offline kylie

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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2009, 11:21:53 AM »
Maybe you should be a little more mindful, that last bit if fairly offensive.
Okay, granted it's not filed under Politics.  However, we could make an empirical question of how much the Republican "Southern Strategy," which failed pretty well to win the last presidential election, prominently features race-baiting rhetoric and waves to near secessionist ideas.  Both of which can be fairly offensive.  I deal with this stuff every day trying to do business in the social sciences and in deciding what to wear, who to meet with in what neighborhood.  If people "simply must" get prickly, they can try and make an argument grounded in reality about it.

Quote
South could have never won it not one cannon or arms factory and their were more people in New York than in the majority of the South. Plus they were fighting defensively. Can't win a war like that.
Yeah, in my limited understanding the North got by the first half or so mostly on grinding attrition (despite pretty faltering strategy).  Again, the casualty figures: Whopping -- and often more upon the North.  I do seem to recall reading around the time of the ironclads, there was some fear the North might become outgunned at least at sea.  And continued whispering about, now who are those Euros going to support.  Whether this was rational or not, I don't know.   


Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2009, 12:02:30 PM »
Attrition as a strategy works, if you have the numbers to pull it off, and a way to prevent your morale crumbling because of the casualties. Look at the early - mid war Eastern Front in WW2.

Quantity has a quality all of its own, as the saying goes.

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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2009, 02:44:02 PM »
Attrition as a strategy works, if you have the numbers to pull it off, and a way to prevent your morale crumbling because of the casualties. Look at the early - mid war Eastern Front in WW2.

Quantity has a quality all of its own, as the saying goes.
Can't remember who said it but it went: "Whoever gets there the fastest with the mostest wins the war."

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2009, 03:02:41 PM »
I think that might have been Nathan Bedford Forrest.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 03:03:57 PM by HairyHeretic »

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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2009, 03:32:55 PM »
This reminds me of a chart I once saw in a co-worker's office - a chart depicting Napoleon's invasion of Russia, with the army's location, direction size, and the temperatures during the retreat.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6549/minardnapoleon.jpg

So much information in such a compact form...

Offline Trieste

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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2009, 03:54:08 PM »
It's a nifty representation of the physical war; I liked seeing how the borders morphed along the way - history books would have you believe that they were static up until the end of the war when the whole South just gave in as a whole.

I think it would be interesting to see another map with the political battles. What about when Lincoln started fucking with the Constitution? What about when he suspended habeas corpus? War always brings a reduction in rights 'for the greater good'... I have a friend who noted not long ago that the Civil War was the beginning of the end for states' rights, and I'm inclined to agree.

Offline SuperHans

Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2009, 09:36:06 AM »
Have to say your civil war was alot cooler than ours. More interesting causes, more interesting battles. And who the hell cares about Cromwell and Charles when you've got actually interesting, vibrant personalities like Lincoln and Lee?

Offline Trieste

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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 09:43:17 AM »
Actually, I thought Cromwell was kinda scary-interesting.

Offline SuperHans

Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2009, 10:32:42 AM »
The man banned Christmas! :D I suppose that could make him interesting in an over-the-top supervillain esque way.

Offline Trieste

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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2009, 11:19:42 AM »
Exactly! Oliver Cromwell is the supervillain badass of English history. He kicked some serious ass, and didn't do it until he was, in the terms of the day, an old geezer with one foot in the grave.

You really just have to respect that. But I possibly think that way because I'm American, and Cromwell is only barely brushed in my history books... which is more of an education than most get.

Offline SuperHans

Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 11:22:57 AM »
That is very true actually! And if anything, the serious wart problems with his face make him perfect for the typical Bond physically deformed villain, like Blofeld with the scar.

Offline consortium11

Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2009, 11:24:02 AM »
I think it would be interesting to see another map with the political battles. What about when Lincoln started fucking with the Constitution? What about when he suspended habeas corpus? War always brings a reduction in rights 'for the greater good'... I have a friend who noted not long ago that the Civil War was the beginning of the end for states' rights, and I'm inclined to agree.

As I understand it the "Southern Romanticism" school of history views the US Civil War as pretty much the start and end of the real battle for State's Rights. IIRC their explanation for the war has little/nothing to do with the more generally accepted reasons (slavery et al... and they've got good arguments) and instead was more a series of State vs Fed and Small Gov vs Large Gov issues. As the Union won, ever since State's rights have been severely weakened... the ultimate (and only real) defence a State has against Federal incursion is the ability to leave the Union... a right that was taken away during the Civil War (and may never have actually existed... technically States may be entrenched).

Have to say your civil war was alot cooler than ours. More interesting causes, more interesting battles. And who the hell cares about Cromwell and Charles when you've got actually interesting, vibrant personalities like Lincoln and Lee?

While I like (is that the right word... I doubt it...) the US Civil War, the English one gets a pretty poor deal all things considered. We have the first true regicide (a king/queen executed by a non-royal), the new model army (which was one of the first Western professional armies), the destruction of first Royal and then Parliamentary power, a conflict between Catholic leaning Protestantism, traditional Protestantism and the Puritans, the setting up of "committees" with innocuous names but great powers (which would be followed in the French Revolution), the horrors that followed in Ireland, a powerful Scottish independence movement and IIRC the civil war was one of the first times where leaders stopped "arranging" battles; where the respective leaders would meet and arrange the exact time and place conflicts would occur.

As for characters, you had the central players of Cromwell and Charles, both of whom have a whole host of interesting character points... as well as others such as Earl Devereaux first leader of the roundheads who used to carry his coffin around with him and was noted as a great planner and trainer but too cautious within battle... and also led the noble faction who opposed Charles, the dashing Prince Rupert... a man with the bad luck to be born in the wrong century... to whom many of the Royalists greatest victories (and a few defeats) can be assigned, who had a white poodle go into battle with him which the enemy were convinced had magic powers and became a buccaneer after the war, Charles Nott... a parson who organised the Clubmen, groups of citizens who refused to bow to either side and just wanted to protect their homes, Thomas Fairfax one of the great generas of the age but with no skill for the politics that followed, John Lambert a great general, writer and speaker who first attempted to codify the powers of the sovereign but was also cursed with considerable arrogance... and was seen as the Roundhead version of Prince Rupert, Henry Vane an early voice for religious toleration, one of the few not to vote for Charles's death... but was executed anyway.

And that's just scratching the surface... the civil war had a whole host of interesting characters out there.

Offline SuperHans

Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2009, 11:36:09 AM »
I'd agree on the raw deal front, as people aren't generally aware of these features of the war, which do sound interesting. In my school, we were only told the basics. Divine Right as a political philosophy, Charles's personality, the refusal to allow parliament to sit. Then you've got basic details about the image of the roundheads and cavaliers as functional and extravagant respectively (which, as a recent trip to the National Army Museum up in Chelsea informed me, was a complete fabrication). I and I'm sure many others only learned about Thomas Fairfax's story in that miniseries the Devil's Whore a year ago. Of course, I'm supposed to be a fan of history so I suppose there's no excuse for not doing independent research and trying to find more fascinating features, but there you go.

Offline consortium11

Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2009, 11:44:54 AM »
I'd agree on the raw deal front, as people aren't generally aware of these features of the war, which do sound interesting. In my school, we were only told the basics. Divine Right as a political philosophy, Charles's personality, the refusal to allow parliament to sit. Then you've got basic details about the image of the roundheads and cavaliers as functional and extravagant respectively (which, as a recent trip to the National Army Museum up in Chelsea informed me, was a complete fabrication). I and I'm sure many others only learned about Thomas Fairfax's story in that miniseries the Devil's Whore a year ago. Of course, I'm supposed to be a fan of history so I suppose there's no excuse for not doing independent research and trying to find more fascinating features, but there you go.

Oh, don't get me wrong... I'm not trying to claim some rightous "Oh my GOD! How the hell don't you people know this stuff, you're all f'n stupid!!!!" anger on this... unless you have an interest in the period (or the well known "I clicked on one Wiki link and 7 hours later I was an expert on something obscure" situation) you probaby won't see it mentioned anywhere

There are a whole load of interesting areas of history that get swept under the carpet; much of Eastern Roman Empire/Byzantine empire, the Albigensian Crusade (in fact, all the Crusade's outside the middle east, notably those against the Tatars and in Eastern Europe) and Tamarlane vs the Golden Horde... and that's just a small list.

Offline Trieste

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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2009, 11:55:49 AM »
As I understand it the "Southern Romanticism" school of history views the US Civil War as pretty much the start and end of the real battle for State's Rights. IIRC their explanation for the war has little/nothing to do with the more generally accepted reasons (slavery et al... and they've got good arguments) and instead was more a series of State vs Fed and Small Gov vs Large Gov issues. As the Union won, ever since State's rights have been severely weakened... the ultimate (and only real) defence a State has against Federal incursion is the ability to leave the Union... a right that was taken away during the Civil War (and may never have actually existed... technically States may be entrenched).

And they would be right. I am not a fan of slavery - far from it! - but there were probably better ways to take care of it than going to war. If you're going to stand for states' rights, you have to stand up for their rights to do something wrong (if that makes sense). That includes things like abortion and execution... and slavery.

It's possible that if Lincoln (who was an awesome leader, yes) had not been so war-happy, there would have been a solution found for slavery that would not then precipitate another hundred-odd years of prejudice and civil rights violations to deal with.

(or the well known "I clicked on one Wiki link and 7 hours later I was an expert on something obscure" situation)

>.>

<.<

*raises hand.. a little*

Offline SuperHans

Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2009, 12:06:31 PM »
It's true actually, we get taught all about the basics of Rome in school, such as centurions and Julius Ceasar. But the Byzantines never get a look in to any curriculums, which in the study of history is pretty much like reading a novel but tearing out the last chapter. It's the same with the Ottomans, but they seem to have survived becasue of notoriety.

Offline consortium11

Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2009, 12:11:32 PM »
And they would be right. I am not a fan of slavery - far from it! -

I swear I've read an rp which says different...  ;)

but there were probably better ways to take care of it than going to war. If you're going to stand for states' rights, you have to stand up for their rights to do something wrong (if that makes sense). That includes things like abortion and execution... and slavery.

It's possible that if Lincoln (who was an awesome leader, yes) had not been so war-happy, there would have been a solution found for slavery that would not then precipitate another hundred-odd years of prejudice and civil rights violations to deal with.

As the arguement goes (as far as I understand it) slavery was a virtual none-issue other than as a rallying call by both sides, as evidenced by the fact the North kept slavery for a long period into the war (until the political pressure became too much), the fact that Lincoln was a pretty blatant racist (although that is slightly the product of the time) and implemented laws and policies to that effect (and I believe there's an infamous quote about not ever allowing whites and blacks to live together).

Instead, the war was about tariffs, trade and other comparatively boring topics that led to Maryland attempting to secede and the use of federal troops to prevent that... and at heart the war was about the Fed's powers over states and whether states had the right to leave to Union if they wished to.

>.>

<.<

*raises hand.. a little*

Oh, I once went to check which episode something I remembered from Band of Brothers occured in... and 3 hours later I was suddenly studying some relatively minor conflict in Continental Europe during the 19th century.

Offline Trieste

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Re: The Civil War in four minutes.
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2009, 12:20:44 PM »
I swear I've read an rp which says different...  ;)

I have no idea what you're talking about. >.>