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Author Topic: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]  (Read 258580 times)

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Offline consortium11

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3200 on: June 04, 2011, 06:13:18 PM »
Such as? I mean, I know most of the complaints people had about ME2's plot, and I personally don't find them that bad. Or bad at all. Not looking to start a huge debate here, just curious.

Most of the plot holes weren't massive "leap out of at your face" bad but there were several that wormed their way in, especially if one was interested in the background and universe they created... normally minor but stil..

Off the top of my head:

1) Why didn't anyone at least suggest simply destroying the Omega 4 relay rather than a suicide mission?

2) There's an Asari member on the council... why doesn't anyone at least suggesting she merges with Shepard to check the validity of his claims?

3) Jacobs father and his crew have been out of contact with anyone for 10 years... yet they all use weapons with thermal clips (only introduced in the past 2 years) and have a heavy droid contingent (again, only heavily used post-Citadel attack).

4) Linked to the above... how would Shepard know about thermal clips? AFAIR when he was blasted into space they still hadn't been introduced.

5) No-one believes in the Reapers... but there's a massive one sitting out by a star. Couldn't Shepard have at least messaged Anderson and said "hey... you might want to check this out..."

6) General Collector plot induced stupidity (Why not simply fly off when Shepard is onboard their ship? Once it becomes apparent he's hunting for a way to their base why not simply camp by their side of the relay? etc etc)

7) Why didn't the Collectors help out Soverign in ME 1?

8) If Colonists are disappearing without a trace then why in the one abduction we see does the ship leave a huge crater that no-one could miss? Did they not bother with a ship in previous abductions? Terraform the planet? Every other investigator simply look the other way?

9) Mordin has one of the Collector bugs in his lab... before you've ever encountered them...

10) You have Cerberus (super secret evil organisation everyone but seriously pro-humans hate) stencilled on the side of your ship. But you never have an issue landing somewhere... including the Citadel.

11) The ending choice... which is up there at Fallout 3 levels of idiocy.

12) Not so much a plot holes as an issue with the plot as a whole. Nothing happens. It is entirely self-contained. The game ends in the same position as the first one ended in terms of "the bigger picture" (outside of possibly some genophage tampering and possibly influencing the migrant fleet). The Reapers are still out there, they're still coming, you haven't slowed them down or learnt significantly more about them, the universe isn't really more ready. The entire experience (streamlined) could essentially have been a single mission midway through ME1 without changing the plot. The two things with the most obvious impact on the "big picture" (the secret about the alliance and the new Shadowbroker) are both in DLC's...

And that's without touching Arrival which basically invalidates most of the plot of ME 1 and 2...

I enjoy the game regardless and, as I say, most of the plot holes are relatively minor (until Arrival), although they seriously test your suspension of disbelief, but they're still there. Not Fallout 3 levels of bad by any means... but they exist and they're annoying... especially the ones that a decent editor should have picked out quickly.

Offline Hemingway

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3201 on: June 04, 2011, 06:34:28 PM »
Would you like me to address those questions? I see answers to a few of them, at least ( though they may not be satisfying answers ).

Offline Inkidu

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Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3202 on: June 04, 2011, 06:36:49 PM »
Most of the plot holes weren't massive "leap out of at your face" bad but there were several that wormed their way in, especially if one was interested in the background and universe they created... normally minor but stil..

Off the top of my head:

1) Why didn't anyone at least suggest simply destroying the Omega 4 relay rather than a suicide mission?

2) There's an Asari member on the council... why doesn't anyone at least suggesting she merges with Shepard to check the validity of his claims?

3) Jacobs father and his crew have been out of contact with anyone for 10 years... yet they all use weapons with thermal clips (only introduced in the past 2 years) and have a heavy droid contingent (again, only heavily used post-Citadel attack).

4) Linked to the above... how would Shepard know about thermal clips? AFAIR when he was blasted into space they still hadn't been introduced.

5) No-one believes in the Reapers... but there's a massive one sitting out by a star. Couldn't Shepard have at least messaged Anderson and said "hey... you might want to check this out..."

6) General Collector plot induced stupidity (Why not simply fly off when Shepard is onboard their ship? Once it becomes apparent he's hunting for a way to their base why not simply camp by their side of the relay? etc etc)

7) Why didn't the Collectors help out Soverign in ME 1?

8) If Colonists are disappearing without a trace then why in the one abduction we see does the ship leave a huge crater that no-one could miss? Did they not bother with a ship in previous abductions? Terraform the planet? Every other investigator simply look the other way?

9) Mordin has one of the Collector bugs in his lab... before you've ever encountered them...

10) You have Cerberus (super secret evil organisation everyone but seriously pro-humans hate) stencilled on the side of your ship. But you never have an issue landing somewhere... including the Citadel.

11) The ending choice... which is up there at Fallout 3 levels of idiocy.

12) Not so much a plot holes as an issue with the plot as a whole. Nothing happens. It is entirely self-contained. The game ends in the same position as the first one ended in terms of "the bigger picture" (outside of possibly some genophage tampering and possibly influencing the migrant fleet). The Reapers are still out there, they're still coming, you haven't slowed them down or learnt significantly more about them, the universe isn't really more ready. The entire experience (streamlined) could essentially have been a single mission midway through ME1 without changing the plot. The two things with the most obvious impact on the "big picture" (the secret about the alliance and the new Shadowbroker) are both in DLC's...

And that's without touching Arrival which basically invalidates most of the plot of ME 1 and 2...

I enjoy the game regardless and, as I say, most of the plot holes are relatively minor (until Arrival), although they seriously test your suspension of disbelief, but they're still there. Not Fallout 3 levels of bad by any means... but they exist and they're annoying... especially the ones that a decent editor should have picked out quickly.

1. Not even super novas destroy mass relays. (ME 1 near the end)
2. Merging has never claimed to give truth. Plus that would kind of be like casual sex.
3. Genuine plot hole, but easily overlooked because to have a different set of animations to render one section of a large game is really a squandering of resources. Really kind of picking the knit here aren't you? What to those big bugs in Morrowind eat and where do they poop?
4. To be fair, they might have been in prototype while he was still active. He was still around for several months after the Geth and Sovereign thing.
5. Okay, and what good would that do? Get a lot more people killed, and by the time they're off it it falls into the star. Plus what just stops them from saying something else spin-doctory? They're a government. Admit they're wrong and take a former commander now working with Cerberus on his word? Would you?
6. They did.
7. Maybe the reapers didn't need them, they had the Geth. Reapers are subtle, plus collectors are rarely seen. I think it was a case of needing more foot soldiers once the Geth were repelled.
8. Why would it leave a crater? Why would they not think that was some kind of mining operation. That's kind of just grasping at straws. There are probably equally weak answers for a weak question like this, maybe they don't leave a trackable trace. Cerberus has a clue that it's the collectors to begin with. They needed harder proof than a hole in the ground.
9. Cerberus could have gotten him one. They found a Reaper ship didn't they?
10. Your personal opinion and not an issue with the writing of the story.
11. Maybe it's self contained so that new people can get in without feeling lost? ME 1 didn't really prep you for anything. They just left it open. I can think of a few dialogue options that could have a significant impact on ME3.

I've not played any of the DLC, but I hardly doubt Arrival invalidates everything. You would actually have to try to do that. 

Offline Geeklet

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3203 on: June 04, 2011, 06:53:14 PM »
7) Why didn't the Collectors help out Soverign in ME 1?

This one is actually fairly easy, IMO. Sovereign was plan A. Collectors were part of plan B.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
From what I can recall, it seemed as though the collectors were already gathering general genetic material in the beginning in their process of creating a new reaper. It wasn't until after Shepard foiled Sovereign's plan that their focus shifted towards humans, and they begun the Human Reaper, in their twisted effort to fight fire with fire, so to speak.

Offline Hemingway

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3204 on: June 04, 2011, 07:01:42 PM »
1. Not even super novas destroy mass relays. (ME 1 near the end)

Actually, destroying a relay is a central part of the plot of the Arrival.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
It wipes out the entire system.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3205 on: June 04, 2011, 07:23:13 PM »
Actually, destroying a relay is a central part of the plot of the Arrival.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
It wipes out the entire system.
Okay, well still. Would you want to wipe out a whole system. For the love of God EA release all the ME2 content on a disc or something. I lust for it.

Offline consortium11

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3206 on: June 04, 2011, 07:47:34 PM »
1. Not even super novas destroy mass relays. (ME 1 near the end)

No longer canon... Arrival ends with
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
you destroying a Mass Relay by slamming an asteroid into it

2. Merging has never claimed to give truth. Plus that would kind of be like casual sex.

It may not give truth... but several things the Council actively deny (such as the AI at Ilos which was rendered inoperable) would be revealed. In addition the codex entries specifically say that this type of merging in non-sexual... and considering the general Asari attitude to casual sex and the consequences it makes the Council seem (even more) incompetent to not even mention it. You could at least acknowledge it using your logic in 2 lines of dialogue... but they don't even do that. If you give the Asari these powers at least find ways around them... don't act as if they no longer exist.

3. Genuine plot hole, but easily overlooked because to have a different set of animations to render one section of a large game is really a squandering of resources.

Then find a way to avoid them being completely out of contact for 10 years. It's sloppy writing... and one an editor should of picked up on.

Really kind of picking the knit here aren't you? What to those big bugs in Morrowind eat and where do they poop?

If I was really knit picking I'd wonder why Fem-Shep comes out of the communal showers in certain romance scenes when there are perfectly acceptable showers in her quarters...

As I say it's a minor hole... but it's a hole none-the-less and one that should have been caught.

4. To be fair, they might have been in prototype while he was still active. He was still around for several months after the Geth and Sovereign thing.

Possibly. A line of dialogue clears it up. They didn't bother...

5. Okay, and what good would that do? Get a lot more people killed, and by the time they're off it it falls into the star. Plus what just stops them from saying something else spin-doctory? They're a government. Admit they're wrong and take a former commander now working with Cerberus on his word? Would you?

I would... and I imagine most people would. The Council has plot induced stupidity bind them.

And if not Shepard how about the Illusive Man? The Reaper's been known about for long enough for him to assemble a team, send it over and they to be indoctrinated. Considering he understands that the Reapers are a bigger threat than any petty issues between them and the Alliance/the Council.

6. They did.

They laid a trap that seemed to be based entirely around trying to shoot him repeatedly. The fear of them "powering up" is never that they'll run away... it's that they'll shoot the Normandy again.

7. Maybe the reapers didn't need them, they had the Geth. Reapers are subtle, plus collectors are rarely seen. I think it was a case of needing more foot soldiers once the Geth were repelled.

Why wouldn't they use the bugs when Saren reached the Citadel? Everyone disabled... Saren does his thing. Reapers win. Why don't they use the bugs at any point?

8. Why would it leave a crater? Why would they not think that was some kind of mining operation. That's kind of just grasping at straws. There are probably equally weak answers for a weak question like this, maybe they don't leave a trackable trace. Cerberus has a clue that it's the collectors to begin with. They needed harder proof than a hole in the ground.

It did leave a crater when it left... they spent at least one cutscene extolling quite how destructive it was.

We're hit over the head repeatedly early on that everyone thinks the Colonists are disappearing "without a trace" and that the Alliance, which has investigated these disappearances, has no idea what's causing it. Yet even a basic investigation would reveal the damage the landings caused. Mining operation? Scan the planet... is the landing site over a mineral rich zone? Has the colony ordered any mining equipment? Do the colonists have mining experience? Have they exported anything? It's the sort of thing you'd expect any half competent investigator to have looked at when there are thousands of people disappearing at a time. It's yet more plot induced stupidity... and there shouldn't be a need for it. Simply change the scene... have the ship remain in orbit and have the colonists transported by shuttle.

9. Cerberus could have gotten him one. They found a Reaper ship didn't they?

When? How? They've had no direct contact with the Collectors yet the bug mysteriously appears (without a mention). They weren't left at colonies (remember, "without a trace")...

10. Your personal opinion and not an issue with the writing of the story.

I'm not quite sure how this is personal opinion. We're reminded on a fairly regular basis that basically everyone hates Cerebus and that they're seen as terrorists by the vast majority. The Normandy SR2 has Cerebus painted on the side. Yet no-one at the Citadel mentions it. The only time it ever comes up is the Migrant Fleet...

11. Maybe it's self contained so that new people can get in without feeling lost? ME 1 didn't really prep you for anything. They just left it open. I can think of a few dialogue options that could have a significant impact on ME3.

I'm not sure how moving the bigger plot forward would have got people lost. You can frame the opening in the same way to set the scene... but then move the plot forward.

I've not played any of the DLC, but I hardly doubt Arrival invalidates everything. You would actually have to try to do that.

Arrival includes

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
The previously mentioned Relays can be destroyed by an asteroid hitting them... with all the problems that entails

The Reapers are basically here. They crossed from Dark Space in  record time... without using Relays. In short, why would they bother with Relays at all? At worst it took them around 2 years (end of Mass Effect 1 to end of Mass Effect 2) to make it from Dark Space to reach the Milky Way. These are beings who were are (once again) constantly reminded have no impatience, little to no concept as time (at least on a scale we'd comprehend). Why all the hoo-ha (and revealing their existence) of Mass Effect 1 (which has its own serious plot holes) when they could just fly their way to the edge of the galaxy and start destroying from there... or use a Relay in one of those outer clusters?

Offline consortium11

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3207 on: June 04, 2011, 07:55:22 PM »
This one is actually fairly easy, IMO. Sovereign was plan A. Collectors were part of plan B.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
From what I can recall, it seemed as though the collectors were already gathering general genetic material in the beginning in their process of creating a new reaper. It wasn't until after Shepard foiled Sovereign's plan that their focus shifted towards humans, and they begun the Human Reaper, in their twisted effort to fight fire with fire, so to speak.

Well, if we're really getting into it

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
The Keepers were Plan A, with Sovereign acting as a watchman (and a particularly incompetent one). There's enough serious issues with this but ME1 was fairly good at not rubbing them in your face which meant they basically slipped under the carpet and didn't ever rear their head unless you deeply thought about it.

Regardless... why bothers with Plan A + B when Plan A could essentially be guaranteed success? Have a swarm of those bugs with Saren when he warps into the Citadel... Shepard, his team and any other guards are taken out. Have a swarm of them on Virmire... he has his Krogan Army and Shepard and his team are dead. Why weren't the Collectors searching for Ilos? Etc, etc.

Offline Wyrd

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3208 on: June 04, 2011, 08:48:46 PM »
I'm 100% backing all the great points consortium has. There are so many little things wrong with the plot that it makes for a pretty big issue(IMO). There are also no "real" character progression for our buddy Shepard the brick. And what could the purpose be building that giant Arnold Schwarzenegger reaper? Were they going to like drop it on a city and use it like a friggin gundam? Were the going to build a ship "around" it? Wha-? And on Horizon, why does the Allience crew member(Ash, Kad) not get collected? I may not sound to far fetched, we did see other people frozen who were also not collected, but wasn't the whole reason the collectors attacked Horizen because of that person and their ties to Shep? They were also the first ones to be frozen and the closest to where the collectors landed. Another point about Horizon, why didn't the Normandy help out? I know EDI was doing something with calibrating the AA canons, but the Normandy is in orbit, why not fire upon the collector ship or bomb the collector troops?       

tune in next time when we talk about the DEAD REAPER they find. :P
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 09:20:12 PM by Wyrd »

Offline Wolfy

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3209 on: June 04, 2011, 09:06:04 PM »
*Continues to eat Popcorn while the fireworks are going off* I told you there would be fireworks...^-^

Offline Hemingway

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3210 on: June 04, 2011, 09:10:45 PM »
Yeah, I regret bringing it up. Apparently discussing Mass Effect is like discussing religion. Everyone's convinced they're right and rational arguments don't bite.

Offline Wyrd

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3211 on: June 04, 2011, 09:12:17 PM »
You asked for me to show you the plot holes. :/

To thread pages and over two hours of youtube plot Analysis by smudboy.  Plus, it seems me and consortium have the strongest points anywhy with everyone else with everyone else acting like a... It really is like religion.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 09:14:15 PM by Wyrd »

Offline Hemingway

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3212 on: June 04, 2011, 09:13:23 PM »
I asked for examples out of curiosity. I didn't intend to debate their validity.

I gotta say, all I'm seeing right now is a lot of opinions.

Offline Wyrd

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3213 on: June 04, 2011, 09:16:10 PM »
Pfft! Thats only becuase you don't want to see them as actually flaws in the plot.

Offline Hemingway

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3214 on: June 04, 2011, 09:17:26 PM »
If you insist, I'll go over the whole list.

Offline Oniya

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Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3215 on: June 04, 2011, 09:31:40 PM »

Offline Hemingway

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3216 on: June 04, 2011, 09:43:00 PM »
Quote
1) Why didn't anyone at least suggest simply destroying the Omega 4 relay rather than a suicide mission?

Probably because 1) it was thought to be impossible and 2) that would preclude any chance of learning more.

Quote
2) There's an Asari member on the council... why doesn't anyone at least suggesting she merges with Shepard to check the validity of his claims?

I see two possibilities. Either they take him about as seriously as we take people predicting the end of the world, or it's all political, and they know but seek to avoid galaxy-wide panic. Just a thought.

Quote
3) Jacobs father and his crew have been out of contact with anyone for 10 years... yet they all use weapons with thermal clips (only introduced in the past 2 years) and have a heavy droid contingent (again, only heavily used post-Citadel attack).

Probably because it's less time-consuming than giving custom weapons to NPCs only encountered on one planet, but that's just a guess. I see your point, but I really fail to see how this damages the plot in any way.

Quote
4) Linked to the above... how would Shepard know about thermal clips? AFAIR when he was blasted into space they still hadn't been introduced.

One reason could be that the attack on the Normandy takes place some time after the Citadel attack. If nothing else, he would have known of plans to implement them.

Quote
5) No-one believes in the Reapers... but there's a massive one sitting out by a star. Couldn't Shepard have at least messaged Anderson and said "hey... you might want to check this out..."

The reasons for this are many. It would, above all, hamper his ability to get the Reaper IFF. You suppose the Alliance would let him wander in and take it? That's assuming they weren't indoctrinated first. You may also recall that it was sucked into the nearby star right after. If you don't see how many problems this would've caused, how many delays and potential risks, then you don't want to.

Quote
6) General Collector plot induced stupidity (Why not simply fly off when Shepard is onboard their ship? Once it becomes apparent he's hunting for a way to their base why not simply camp by their side of the relay? etc etc)

There is nothing in the game to suggest the Collectors have more than one ship.

Quote
7) Why didn't the Collectors help out Soverign in ME 1?

The Collectors have been busy with their experiments for some time. They probably didn't help out because their presence wouldn't have done anything to turn the tide of the battle. They were successful because their targets were weak and unprepared.

Quote
8) If Colonists are disappearing without a trace then why in the one abduction we see does the ship leave a huge crater that no-one could miss? Did they not bother with a ship in previous abductions? Terraform the planet? Every other investigator simply look the other way?

As I recall, no one is "looking the other way". Craters are evidence that someone has been there, not of Collectors.

Quote
9) Mordin has one of the Collector bugs in his lab... before you've ever encountered them...

Design oversight? Recovered from the first colony? Who knows? I never noticed this.

Quote
10) You have Cerberus (super secret evil organisation everyone but seriously pro-humans hate) stencilled on the side of your ship. But you never have an issue landing somewhere... including the Citadel.

I have never noticed this, and can't seem to find it in any pictures.

Quote
11) The ending choice... which is up there at Fallout 3 levels of idiocy.

Also known as your personal opinion.

Quote
And what could the purpose be building that giant Arnold Schwarzenegger reaper? Were they going to like drop it on a city and use it like a friggin gundam? Were the going to build a ship "around" it? Wha-?

We may find out. We may not. Not having everything revealed is not a plot hole. The true nature of that thing may have died with the Collectors.

Quote
And on Horizon, why does the Allience crew member(Ash, Kad) not get collected? I may not sound to far fetched, we did see other people frozen who were also not collected, but wasn't the whole reason the collectors attacked Horizen because of that person and their ties to Shep?

Others got away, too. Kinetic barriers probably provide some protection, giving the person time to find shelter. As for the reason, I think you've got it backward. I think Ashley/Kaidan is there because it's a likely candidate for an attack, not the other way around.

Quote
Another point about Horizon, why didn't the Normandy help out? I know EDI was doing something with calibrating the AA canons, but the Normandy is in orbit, why not fire upon the collector ship?

There are a few plausible explanations for this, distance being one of those. A far more like explanation, however, is that the Normandy is a frigate, and not intended for combat in a planet's atmosphere. Nasty things like burning up could happen. They also have to disable their barriers for re-entry, so one got hit and you're done for.

Now, was there anything I missed?

Offline Wyrd

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3217 on: June 04, 2011, 11:03:17 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Probably because 1) it was thought to be impossible and 2) that would preclude any chance of learning more.

I see two possibilities. Either they take him about as seriously as we take people predicting the end of the world, or it's all political, and they know but seek to avoid galaxy-wide panic. Just a thought.

Probably because it's less time-consuming than giving custom weapons to NPCs only encountered on one planet, but that's just a guess. I see your point, but I really fail to see how this damages the plot in any way.

One reason could be that the attack on the Normandy takes place some time after the Citadel attack. If nothing else, he would have known of plans to implement them.

The reasons for this are many. It would, above all, hamper his ability to get the Reaper IFF. You suppose the Alliance would let him wander in and take it? That's assuming they weren't indoctrinated first. You may also recall that it was sucked into the nearby star right after. If you don't see how many problems this would've caused, how many delays and potential risks, then you don't want to.

There is nothing in the game to suggest the Collectors have more than one ship.

The Collectors have been busy with their experiments for some time. They probably didn't help out because their presence wouldn't have done anything to turn the tide of the battle. They were successful because their targets were weak and unprepared.

As I recall, no one is "looking the other way". Craters are evidence that someone has been there, not of Collectors.

Design oversight? Recovered from the first colony? Who knows? I never noticed this.

I have never noticed this, and can't seem to find it in any pictures.

Also known as your personal opinion.

We may find out. We may not. Not having everything revealed is not a plot hole. The true nature of that thing may have died with the Collectors.

Others got away, too. Kinetic barriers probably provide some protection, giving the person time to find shelter. As for the reason, I think you've got it backward. I think Ashley/Kaidan is there because it's a likely candidate for an attack, not the other way around.

There are a few plausible explanations for this, distance being one of those. A far more like explanation, however, is that the Normandy is a frigate, and not intended for combat in a planet's atmosphere. Nasty things like burning up could happen. They also have to disable their barriers for re-entry, so one got hit and you're done for.

Now, was there anything I missed?

1) I some what agree, it would be nice to learn more. How many troops they have, how big their fleet is, what the collector home world is like... Oh wait, it's just a bid floating rock and a couple of flying eyeballs... We could have learned that be scotch taping a copy of the IFF on a probe instead of bull rushing right in. 

If we did destroy it some how then why would we need to go and learn more about the collectors anyway? Their trapped over their. :P


2) This point is more speculative then the others so I won't comment.


3) So.... you're okay with this Retcon just because you think it's fine for the game developer to be lazy? (What the fu-?) Any sort of contradiction to the over all story is bad for the plot.


4) Also very speculative. We have no idea when exactly they changed to clips, but remember Shep was killed only a few months after the end of ME1


5) Then why not use every piece of of recording technology in known space to get proof of this thing being real. Isn't the whole over arcing theme of Mass Effect to stop the Reapers? Well... heres a stopped reaper. The fact that you are going to a 37 million year old dead reaper entirely dwarfs the plot for ME2(Which is sort of a good thing). And why didn't anybody tell someone about this thing before it was falling into a star? TIM even states he was not opposed to Shep getting help from the Alliance.


6)The fact that they only have one ship is sorta silly in it's self. I mean, why wouldn't they won't more ships? It's even foreshadowed that they were targeting earth. They;d get blown to oblivion by the alliance and citadel fleets before getting close to earth with that stupid single ship that appears to be half mountain.


7) I agree with you on this. I don't feel that the collectors had a place in ME1


8) I'm not sure I fully understand this so I won't comment


9) You didn't notice this? You're fine with a Design over sight like this in your fav game? I'm not quite sure what to say. pay closer attention? This may be a small flaw but it contributes to the other little plot "over sights" that run through this game like a rusty sword. And just becuase you didn't notice does not mean it's not there.


10) Look to the front of the ship, on those fin like things on either side of the nose.




11) It is really more of his opinion but a valid one I think. Why would the option to blow it up even be there? Keeping this thing could be something that could greatly help Shep defeat the reapers, which is the whole theme and story to the trilogy(Is it?) Saving this thing could help save billions of lives. And wouldn't all those humans in the turmanis systems want to know what happened to their loved ones? If the only reasoning to blow the base up is because TIM is a dick. Come on! Thats petty when considering the fate of the galaxy is on the line here. And... It's in the galactic core, how is that even possible? maybe the base is putting up some sort of shield. if so, then wouldn't blowing it up be a bad idea?


12) It is a plot hole when we don't have a reason to see a point in the Triclops terminator even being there to begin with. There better be atleast some hint as to it's true nature in ME3, I find it silly that you're okay with not having an explanation. At least when Jedi's use the force, it's caused by midichlorians. Mind you it's not much to go by and we don't get a lot of detail, but it's something. The only reason I can think of is that the reapers feel it would take to long to get get to the galaxy from dark space so it's easier to just build one there. But why make it a human? Wouldn't you want to build a reaper ship stronger and more powerful then Sovereign? And I thought we were told by Sovereign in the first game that Reapers are not organic in anyway? Yet Arnold is made with... Liquid humans? The left hemisphere of my brain is exploding.


13) We already know that the alliance crew memeber was not protected by anything of the sort, we saw them become frozen, remember? So I have no clue what you mean when you talk about them maybe getting away, because that is not the case. And it seems astronomically coincidental that the reapers showed up at that time.


14) I didn't say anything about the Normandy entering the atmosphere(Though, we've seen the SR2 do it.). I was pointing out they should have bombarded them from orbit. Which would have made sense.




Your points are mostly speculative and not based on much. But being as big an Mass fan as I am, I felt a need to seek out valid arguments with some base to prove the troubled plot.


It's alright to love ME2, but not for the plot. Not even for the story, theme, physics, graphics... but for the amazing universe and characters them selves. Take a movie like Star Wars episode one, people don't remember it for the plot, but because it was star wars.             

   
 


To add: I have not played Arrival so I don't want to comment on things and retcons having to with that little mess.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 11:23:01 PM by Wyrd »

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3218 on: June 05, 2011, 03:49:40 AM »
Hmmm... Well, I could explain my current experience with Hulk: Ultimate Destruction... but I'd rather make a chart, to show you in no unclear terms why I'm not playing that game and am glueing the X Button back on my Xbox Controller =3

Level Start.
Find Car.
Turn Car into disguise.
Walk as car for 10 minutes.
Enter base.
Take off Car.
Many robots attack. Missile Carriers attack.
Your options...
Fight robots = juggled by Missile Carriers.
Fight Missile Carriers = juggled by robots.
Take item, leave area.
Pursued by many robots, helicopters and Missile Carriers. All spam homing attacks that are difficult to dodge and juggle you.
Get hit? Drop box.
Go back for box. Get swarmed.
Get box, run.
Get hit, drop box.
Repeat until you Die.
Return to start of level.

What's that? Doesn't sound too bad? Lets look at what the robots bring to the party...

Robots can...

Fly faster then you run.
Fire homing missiles that juggle you.
Can perform a dash attack that juggles you and is nearly impossible to dodge.
Can spam a lengthy grab move that takes HALF YOUR HEALTH!
Only come in packs of 2 or more, but usually around 5.
Dodge thrown items easily.
Backstep and counter your combos, usually with the rage inducing grab move.

So that's my day, how was yours? =3

Offline Hemingway

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3219 on: June 05, 2011, 04:59:44 AM »
Your points are mostly speculative and not based on much. But being as big an Mass fan as I am, I felt a need to seek out valid arguments with some base to prove the troubled plot.

It's alright to love ME2, but not for the plot. Not even for the story, theme, physics, graphics... but for the amazing universe and characters them selves. Take a movie like Star Wars episode one, people don't remember it for the plot, but because it was star wars.

Of course it's speculative, that's sort of the point. A lot of the supposed plot holes are simply things we haven't had explained to us, so people jump to the conclusion that they're illogical. I'm not saying the answers I gave are right, but they are plausible. Now, seriously, we're not going to get anywhere, this is basically a religious debate, so let's just agree that I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and speculate, you're not, and leave it at that. Because this could go on in circles for ever.

I do find it strange that you would insist on having everything explained, though, because a lot of fiction is better off not being explained. It's sort of like magic. Midichlorians in Star Wars were, ah, not well-received. And I wouldn't go anywhere near Alan Wake if I were you. It's full of, ah-hah, plot holes.

Edit: For giggles, I should like to point out that given your standards for plot holes, you could find plot holes in real-world history. I'm just saying.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 05:02:39 AM by Hemingway »

Offline Wyrd

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3220 on: June 05, 2011, 06:55:07 AM »
*Sigh* I soon as you used the "Suspense of disbelief" BS I knew I could never even sorta win :P  And having things explained to us was one of the cool things about Mass Effect. Theres a reason humanity was able to advance their technology, theres a reason that mass effect fields work the way they do, there are explanations as to how the guns work.  And I'm well aware that every Sci-Fi story needs to suspend some disbelief, but come on, some of the things in ME2 are just plain stupid and silly. But... people will blindly defend anything if the love it enough, no mater how much they may be right or wrong. 

Offline Hemingway

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3221 on: June 05, 2011, 09:44:51 AM »
No.

Offline consortium11

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3222 on: June 05, 2011, 09:56:38 AM »
Probably because 1) it was thought to be impossible and 2) that would preclude any chance of learning more.

1) Depending on which order you play the game in Shepard can have actually already blown up a Relay before getting that close to even going on the suicide mission. Even if played in what I assume is the correct order a research team had managed to calculate they could be destroyed... were Cerebus with their massive funding (even if stretched by Lazarus) and fingers in many pies (and communications arrays...) not able to do the same?

2) Research and learning more is only presented as a major concern as you prepare to blow the base. Prior to that every mention of learning more about the Collectors was tangent to your central mission... rendering them harmless. Additionally as what we must assume is the paragon ending (seeing as every team mate supports it) includes blowing up the base precluding all future research it appears that learning more is not seen as a major concern.

Like many of these issues it could be dealt with by a few lines of dialogue early on. Very quick example off the top of my head:

Shepard: Couldn't we destroy the Relay?
Illusive Man: Doing so would destroy the entire Omega system, killing everyone there.
Paragon Shepard: That's too heavy a price. We can do it without resorting to such measures.
Neutral Shepard: A heavy price. There must be other options?
Renegade Shepard: Do it. What do we care of the fate of a few thousand against millions?
Illusive Man: The Galaxy would put its entire resources into finding who did this and going after them rather than preparing for the Reapers. We have to think of the bigger picture.
etc
etc

It's the lack of such things that cause the issue.

I see two possibilities. Either they take him about as seriously as we take people predicting the end of the world, or it's all political, and they know but seek to avoid galaxy-wide panic. Just a thought.

1) Shepard, who (especially if played Paragon) has been polite to the Council, consistent about the Reaper threat and seems to be absolutely sane... in addition to all the fallout from Sovereign's attack is several steps above the usual "Doomsday prophets". Every piece of information we've been given indicate they don't believe him... but think he is sincere and are making real attempts to verify (or disprove) his theory... apart from the obvious one

2) If they know then why, in private, don't they agree with him? If they know then why aren't they taking steps under the principle of something else to prepare? Every conversation with the like of Anderson (who is a Council insider at worst) indicates that they simply don't believe him and aren't doing anything and from what I recall of the Galactic News, the only item that would indicate them becoming more prepared is the construction of a few more Turian ships... which it says are to replenish the losses caused by the battle of the Citadel. It takes a remarkable amount of essentially fan-fiction to paint the Council as anything other that beyond incompetent on this issue.

Probably because it's less time-consuming than giving custom weapons to NPCs only encountered on one planet, but that's just a guess. I see your point, but I really fail to see how this damages the plot in any way.

It's one of the many small gap in logic that add up to a greater whole (or hole...). I understand it's minor but it's frustrating... and something that an editor should have caught early on. As long as the logic, plot and setting of a game are internally consistent then it's hard to really fault plot holes... things like this make it inconsistent.

One reason could be that the attack on the Normandy takes place some time after the Citadel attack. If nothing else, he would have known of plans to implement them.

I believe the time-line is somewhere between 3 weeks and a month between the Attack on the Citadel and the original Normandy being destroyed. That seems remarkably little time to roll out a whole new weapons system. In addition, going by the codex entries it was the Geth that developed the thermal clip technology which was later followed (after being originally doubtful) by organic arms manufacturers. Seeing as we see no Geth using thermal clip in ME1 that means that in the 3 weeks to a month between the end of ME1 and start of ME2, the Geth rolled out this technology, the Council races captured examples of it, they reverse engineered it to their purpose and Shepard became aware of it. That's a stretch.

I understand the difficulties of introducing a new game mechanic... a mechanic that probably improves the game... but once again, a few lines of dialogue inserted earlier basically clear it up (or spread the time line a little).

The reasons for this are many. It would, above all, hamper his ability to get the Reaper IFF. You suppose the Alliance would let him wander in and take it? That's assuming they weren't indoctrinated first. You may also recall that it was sucked into the nearby star right after. If you don't see how many problems this would've caused, how many delays and potential risks, then you don't want to.

It's only during the mission (when the Kinetic Barriers are brought up) that it becomes necessary to disable the Reaper Core and the Mass Effect drives. Prior to that it was just taking the IFF... of which the removal seems to have no consequences. There's no reason why before you arrive it wouldn't be prudent to message the Council or the Alliance and point out that while they don't seem to believe in the Reapers, reality itself does as there's one sitting right here... knowing that you would have escaped with what you wanted before anyone else came near.

There is nothing in the game to suggest the Collectors have more than one ship.

There's also nothing to suggest they don't... the ship is only identified as the same one 3 times out of 5 (I think) appearances. In addition EDi notes that she compared the ship to other "known Collector Vessel's" implying there are records of more than one.

In addition they seem to have a host of Oculus. Especially for the camping angle... why not have them sit exactly outside the Relay instead of mid debris field?

The Collectors have been busy with their experiments for some time. They probably didn't help out because their presence wouldn't have done anything to turn the tide of the battle. They were successful because their targets were weak and unprepared.

The addition of seeker swarms (at a time when there was no cure) wouldn't have helped Saren in the Citadel? A few more of them at Ilos wouldn't have meant that Shepard got nowhere near the Conduit?

As I recall, no one is "looking the other way". Craters are evidence that someone has been there, not of Collectors.

Which invalidates the "disappearing without a trace" aspect of the initial investigations...

Design oversight? Recovered from the first colony? Who knows? I never noticed this.

There were no seekers left on the first Colony and certainly no mention that you had captured one. It's a design oversight at best... and again, sloppy.

I have never noticed this, and can't seem to find it in any pictures.

The Cereberus logo is plastered all over it. A logo that Jack recognises on sight and is seemingly available on the extra net.

Also known as your personal opinion.

We're given a simple choice with no further options. Completely destroy the base or turn it over to Cerberus. No option to perhaps keep it for yourself as a forward operating base, no option to reveal it to the Alliance or Council etc etc. It's two choices that are massively limited... and conspicuously limited as well. Why wouldn't Shepard suggest leaving the base to the Council? Why wouldn't a Shepard who's been pretty independent in his play-through not want to keep the base himself? Why aren't we given an option?

As I say, it's no one massive glaring one... at least until Arrival... but there's enough little niggles that add up to frustrate me. I still enjoy the game, I enjoy the universe, I enjoy the setting... but I'd enjoy it more if my suspension of disbelief wasn't tested as often as it was.


Offline abandoneddolly

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Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3223 on: June 05, 2011, 10:00:07 AM »
I'm probbaly going to get in trouble here, but i thought Mass effect 2 was boring. I never even made it through the whole game. Nothing really happens.  I loved Mass effect, and pretty much anything bio ware dose, but I think people like Mass Effect 2,because its a mass effect game.

Offline Falcy

Re: What are you playing? [SPOILER TAGS PLEASE]
« Reply #3224 on: June 05, 2011, 10:27:06 AM »
I'm probbaly going to get in trouble here, but i thought Mass effect 2 was boring. I never even made it through the whole game. Nothing really happens.  I loved Mass effect, and pretty much anything bio ware dose, but I think people like Mass Effect 2,because its a mass effect game.

I've never even played any of the Mass Effects xD

But I'm currently stuck playing Aion and Command & Conquer: The First Decade ;p
(Can't wait to get my new computer so FPS lag can rot in Hell <.<)