Hot button topics, lack of civility, and generalizations.

[Azy]

This is another one of my rants about a sensitive issue.  I've just been emotionally beaten to hell and back.  Let me say that I have not experienced incivility here, which I find awesome. 

It has come up before, and likely will again.  It's the topic of a live remake of The Little Mermaid with the Ariel character being played by a black actress.  I've said before and been crucified, but I'll say it again, I'm not thrilled.  What I get crucified for is that because I'm a white person, well, I must be racist to have that opinion!  What other explanation could there be?  I'll tell you. 

I don't have a lot of good memories from my childhood, but that Disney cartoon movie was the first movie I got to see in a theater.  It was my dad's birthday, but somehow I was treated.  It wasn't something he did often, but he wanted me to have that experience.  All of the other live remakes that have come out have been fairly true to the original Disney animated version, so to have one that has a special place in my heart like that be changed just for the sake of placating other people, I'm a little disappointed.  I'm not angry.  I'm not going to protest.  I'm a little disappointed that I won't be able to watch that new remake (if it ever actually comes out) and not be transported back to that theater as a 4 or 5 year old girl with my daddy.  People tell me well, the cartoon version isn't going to disappear, you'll still have it.  True, but if I'm going to watch a remake, I want that connection to the original.  I want those warm and fuzzy feelings to come back, but I feel that there will be a disconnect with changes. 

I was schooled about how my disappointment has nothing to do with nostalgia.  I'm angry and upset about the lack of white representation!  Ummm... what...?  First off, if I've only had a few casual interactions with someone, they don't know me well enough to judge, let alone what is in my heart and what I'm thinking and feeling or why.  This is where the generalization comes in.  All of this is being assumed about me because of the color of my skin.  I asked this person, what about the rest of the cast?  Is it an all black cast?  Is it diverse?  It's been a bit since I read the article about the controversy, but as far as I remember, it only talks about the Ariel character.  If even a single character in this movie is white, then boom, some white representation.  But she didn't even address that question, just accused me of projection. 

I also feel like as a white person I'm not allowed to have any opinions, because if my opinion isn't what is considered politically correct, then I'm racist.  No one will actually debate me in any serious manner.  My opinion isn't popular, I'm white, so I'm racist and dismissed, end of story.  No, I may not have had the same experiences personally, but I can listen and empathize on a human level.  I've listened to some stories from my black uncle.  I feel for what he's gone through, and I don't feel any of that should have ever happened.  I believe hate is an ugly thing.  But what is a white ally who wants to help to do?

I about cried the day I was watching The View, and Sarah Haines said everything I've been feeling.  She wants to be an ally, but feels she can't say anything because she's white and has privilege, so she can't understand and should stay out of the conversation.  Again, at the end of the day, we're all human beings.  I can listen to a woman speak about fearing for her children's safety in this world, and I don't have to be a mother to feel that is heartbreaking.  I understand the concept of family and love, and that no mother should have to live with that fear. 

Since I know the whole placating comment will be picked up on, I'll clarify that now.  I find it a little ridiculous that people of color are getting remakes, recycled ideas that have already been done.  People celebrate this, and I'm told I should feel that this is an amazing thing.  I'm sorry, I don't.  What comes to my mind is why the hell can't writers come up with new ideas for better representation?  I'm getting a little annoyed with all the remakes in general, and lack of fresh ideas.  But as a kid in the 90's there were a handful of sitcoms I used to watch and enjoy that featured black families.  Family Matters is a well known one.  Steve Urkel was a very iconic character.  Of course I pointed this out too, that I watched these shows and connected with the characters on a human level.  If I'm really so bothered by lack of white representation (which is all over the place) then why would I watch and enjoy shows without any?  I still remember the Fresh Prince episode that really got down to the meat of racism.  There was a moment between Will and Uncle Phil at the very end where I literally cried because it was such an emotional scene.  There was no white representation in the movie Crazy Rich Asians, but I enjoyed it.  I think it's cool that the movie was made and did so well.   

It kills me because I'm an opinionated person who is passionate about a lot of things.  I know this country's history.  There is jack shit I can do to change what happened.  I know that there are a lot of things that were not created out of racism, but racists used it to be racist.  I don't think that means it should be gotten rid of.  I'm not about harping on the past.  It is what is.  What I want to do is look at the present, identify the problems, and ask the question of how the root of the problem can be addressed to create a better future.  I mean yeah, we need to learn the lessons from the past, but I feel like some conversations are drifting into beating a dead horse territory.  It happened.  It wasn't right.  What can we do to make sure the next generation doesn't have to go through it?  But of course I say this in any of these conversations, and because I'm Casper, my thoughts and feelings aren't valid, I'm just racist and trying to justify.   

By the way, can anyone explain to me the whole fried chicken and watermelon thing?  I'm white, and enjoy fried chicken and watermelon.  I'm confused as to why that would be a bad thing.  I cannot follow the logic of actual racists.

[Swidi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubE-arwpjk0

[Iniquitous]

So, I'm going to preface this by saying this.

Text does not reflect tone.  That means that the reader interprets the tone, not the writer.  I am a blunt and sarcastic person.  Usually, what I type tends to be taken as me being harsh when that is not how I wrote it.  So, take this however you will but my writing of this is simply to be straightforward.

First.  Why do you even care what everyone else is talking about?  You are completely allowed to go through life without an opinion on every little thing. Yes, you pointed out that the original cartoon was a special part of your childhood, but that doesn't mean you have to form an opinion on the particularly ugly topic.

Second.  Why does it matter to you that they cast a black woman to play Ariel?  Did it ever cross your mind that Halle Bailey got the role because she was the best actor for the part?  Why the automatic assumption that Disney specifically looked for a black actor with the ability to sing to cast in this role just to appear woke?  Does Disney releasing this remake with a black actor in the titular role mean you can no longer have that special childhood memory? (The answer to that question should be no)  Why does your special memory mean more than hundreds to thousands of little POC kids getting the chance to have a special childhood memory of a Disney princess that looks like them?

I do not believe that Disney is trying to placate (that IS a despicable term to use in this situation) anyone with the casting of Halle Bailey.  I think they simply chose the best actor out of those who auditioned and the racists are the ones who have turned this into a war of words.  This remake is not going to steal your special childhood memory. The only thing or person who can ruin that special childhood memory is YOU.  This casting of Halle Bailey as Ariel allows children of color to have their own special childhood memory - which they are allowed.  Who are you to complain about that? Why would you complain about that?

I truly believe that if a person is upset at a black person in a fantasy setting then that person needs to have a very deep and uncomfortable look at themselves. It's fantasy.  Not real.  Meaning the characters can be any color, any sexuality - anything.  I also truly believe that if a person is upset at a race of people finally getting representation in popular media then they also need to have that very deep and uncomfortable look at themselves.

For me? My only concern is whether Halle Bailey can carry a tune to sing the songs.  If she can (and it sure sounds like she can), I'll be happy.

[Azy]

As I tried to explain, I'm not seriously upset about this particular thing.  That's just my point exactly.  Disappointment and anger have been turned into the very same thing, even though disappointment is a much less intense emotion.  I wanted to feel the connection to the original.  People of other races and culture getting representation doesn't upset me either.  Your generic response that I've gotten tens of dozens of times already is my problem. 

It was late and I was upset, but I know I wrote about other examples of black representation, and even a movie that was all about Asian representation.  I said it was a great thing.  What did you focus on?  The first paragraph.  It has been so ingrained in us that we have to think certain ways, and anybody who has a different feeling is a bad person.

Okay, so, let's break this down.  How much understanding do you have about how casting works?  Do you think that a part becomes available, and just any actor of the right gender can walk in and audition?  Because that's a response a lot of people have given me.  Oh, you jump to white people being replaced, when it could be she was just the best actress!  That is also an automatic response.  We say it when someone is upset that a person of color got the job instead of them.  Often times it fits.  If we were talking about a manager at a grocery store, it could be true. 

I'm not in the industry, but I've listened to interviews with actors who have talked a little about it.  When a script is written and then sent to a casting director they are often looking for a type.  Sometimes it's not extremely specific.  Sometimes race is not specified, only general age and appearance.  Agents are notified of the type they are looking for, and then go down their client list to see who fits it.  This actress wouldn't have even auditioned if she didn't fit the type they were looking for. 

There is also the fact that I've heard about a black Batman.  A black Superman, a black Green Lantern, a black Spiderman.....  I'm not really into superheroes, and don't get into those arguments.  None of this has actually happened.  I have thoughts because I'm a thinking and feeling being.  It's been years now that I've been hearing about doing remakes of iconic characters that have meaning to people of my generation with black actors.  Coincidence?  I seriously doubt it. 

Also, after thinking about it some, I noticed that the announcement was made years ago.  I want to say 2020 when this article first popped up in my Facebook feed.  Where's the movie?  Unless I've missed something, there's no release date.  I know the pandemic through a wrench into quite a bit, but other movies were made.  Everything was shut down for a bit, but then people came up with safety guidelines.  After this movie was announced a new Mission Impossible was announced, and it has been filmed.  I remember it was being talked about whether or not Tom Cruise was being an entitled ass or not for going off an a crew member not wearing a mask while they were filming.  And even according to the article I read, filming was supposed to already be taking place.  I do know it takes a bit because after the shooting it all has to be put together.  There is a lot of work done behind the scenes. 

Point being, all this talk about black superheroes, the black mermaid, it hasn't happened.  My thought is the rumors are being released just to cause arguments.  Whether or not it's meant as a distraction, or some people wanted to 'weed out the racists, or even to rile up people who are prone to thinking black people are trying to take over, I'm not sure.  But I think this conversation will be had for quite some time with no movie actually being released. 

There is also the fact that you've implied I should take a hard look in the mirror.  You are another person in a five mile long line of people who are telling me I'm more racist than I think I am because I don't give the politically correct response to something, I dare to think a little differently.  THAT is what I'm so upset about.  You make that judgment based on one feeling I've had without really knowing me.  But again, we're being taught that that non racists say one thing, and racists say anything else.  There is no in between.  I was verbally ripped to pieces by a mob yesterday so they could feel morally superior because they were being a good ally.  I fell to the floor shaking and sobbing, not because of a mermaid, but because I'm the bad guy because I think a little differently.  I think for myself.  I don't follow the mob.  But of course if I add my two cents about anything the mob turns on me to put me in my racist, stupid, gullible, dreamy, delusional place.     

[Iniquitous]

As I tried to explain, I'm not seriously upset about this particular thing.  That's just my point exactly.  Disappointment and anger have been turned into the very same thing, even though disappointment is a much less intense emotion.  I wanted to feel the connection to the original.  People of other races and culture getting representation doesn't upset me either.  Your generic response that I've gotten tens of dozens of times already is my problem. 

It was late and I was upset, but I know I wrote about other examples of black representation, and even a movie that was all about Asian representation.  I said it was a great thing.  What did you focus on?  The first paragraph.  It has been so ingrained in us that we have to think certain ways, and anybody who has a different feeling is a bad person.

Okay, so, let's break this down.  How much understanding do you have about how casting works?  Do you think that a part becomes available, and just any actor of the right gender can walk in and audition?  Because that's a response a lot of people have given me.  Oh, you jump to white people being replaced, when it could be she was just the best actress!  That is also an automatic response.  We say it when someone is upset that a person of color got the job instead of them.  Often times it fits.  If we were talking about a manager at a grocery store, it could be true. 

I'm not in the industry, but I've listened to interviews with actors who have talked a little about it.  When a script is written and then sent to a casting director they are often looking for a type.  Sometimes it's not extremely specific.  Sometimes race is not specified, only general age and appearance.  Agents are notified of the type they are looking for, and then go down their client list to see who fits it.  This actress wouldn't have even auditioned if she didn't fit the type they were looking for. 

There is also the fact that I've heard about a black Batman.  A black Superman, a black Green Lantern, a black Spiderman.....  I'm not really into superheroes, and don't get into those arguments.  None of this has actually happened.  I have thoughts because I'm a thinking and feeling being.  It's been years now that I've been hearing about doing remakes of iconic characters that have meaning to people of my generation with black actors.  Coincidence?  I seriously doubt it. 

Also, after thinking about it some, I noticed that the announcement was made years ago.  I want to say 2020 when this article first popped up in my Facebook feed.  Where's the movie?  Unless I've missed something, there's no release date.  I know the pandemic through a wrench into quite a bit, but other movies were made.  Everything was shut down for a bit, but then people came up with safety guidelines.  After this movie was announced a new Mission Impossible was announced, and it has been filmed.  I remember it was being talked about whether or not Tom Cruise was being an entitled ass or not for going off an a crew member not wearing a mask while they were filming.  And even according to the article I read, filming was supposed to already be taking place.  I do know it takes a bit because after the shooting it all has to be put together.  There is a lot of work done behind the scenes. 

Point being, all this talk about black superheroes, the black mermaid, it hasn't happened.  My thought is the rumors are being released just to cause arguments.  Whether or not it's meant as a distraction, or some people wanted to 'weed out the racists, or even to rile up people who are prone to thinking black people are trying to take over, I'm not sure.  But I think this conversation will be had for quite some time with no movie actually being released. 

There is also the fact that you've implied I should take a hard look in the mirror.  You are another person in a five mile long line of people who are telling me I'm more racist than I think I am because I don't give the politically correct response to something, I dare to think a little differently.  THAT is what I'm so upset about.  You make that judgment based on one feeling I've had without really knowing me.  But again, we're being taught that that non racists say one thing, and racists say anything else.  There is no in between.  I was verbally ripped to pieces by a mob yesterday so they could feel morally superior because they were being a good ally.  I fell to the floor shaking and sobbing, not because of a mermaid, but because I'm the bad guy because I think a little differently.  I think for myself.  I don't follow the mob.  But of course if I add my two cents about anything the mob turns on me to put me in my racist, stupid, gullible, dreamy, delusional place.   

I will ask this again.

Why do you care?  According to you, this does not really affect you in any real, tangible way ... other than disappointment.  So, why do you care? Answer that honestly and maybe we can continue in this discussion.

In the meantime.

Do YOU know how casting works? No, you don't.  You have listened to interviews with actors and admit you are not in the industry, so you don't know for sure either.  Why are you trying to school me on something you don't even understand how it works truly?  Obviously, Halle Bailey fit the criteria to audition - within the right age group, female, can sing.  With that said, she then auditioned and, guess what?  She was selected over all the other auditioners.  I sincerely doubt that Disney said "oh, she's black. We HAVE to cast her for diversity reasons."

Do you know how long POC had to go before Disney put out a black Disney Princess?  SEVENTY-TWO YEARS.  That is FORTY-NINE movies before Disney finally gave us a black princess.  That is seventy-two years that black females NEVER saw themselves represented. Since 2009 and the release of The Princess and the Frog, Disney has released the following - White Princess (Tangled), White (Wreck it Ralph), White Princesses (Frozen), POC (Big Hero Six), POC (Moana), White (Ralph Breaks the Internet), White (Frozen II), POC (Raya & the Last Dragon), POC (Encanto) (( These are just Disney animation films - and they are STILL doing a poor job of POC representation))  It is beyond time they finally opened up casting calls to POC.

I am going to be a grandmother to mixed race children and, let me tell you, I will fight for them to be able to see themselves in movies. Black mermaid? Check. Black princess? Check. Black superhero? Check. Black president? Check. Black CEO? Check.

And I will call out anyone who throws a fit that people of color are getting these roles.  I AM angry at everyone throwing a fit.  It really sounds like a bunch of spoiled kids to me and it makes me sick.

You want to know how to be an ally to people of color? Support them in their fight. Support them in their fight to be represented in the media. Support them in their fight to earn the same positions that white people get. Support them in their fight to be treated equally. Full stop.  No ifs, no ands, no buts, no "disappointment" when someone of color EARNS the role a white person has previously had.

BTW - a simple google search would have shown you the movie comes out next year.  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5971474/  - even the teaser trailer showed it is coming out next year.

End of discussion.

[Azy]

You know what.  To just answer you're question I'm going to keep this short and sweet.  Why do I care so much about a mermaid.  The honest answer is I don't.  I used that particular conversation to try and speak on my displeasure about all of this new representation happening by changing iconic characters that mean something to people through remakes.  What I would rather see is new ideas.  Like I said, I never got into the superhero conversations because I'm not a big superhero fan, but I do know there are lot of upset people over those rumors as well. 

Maybe you have a point.  Maybe there is a sliver of racism there.  But childhood memories can be strong and dear to be people.  I have also said before that I would not be happy with a blonde Ariel.  But please answer this question.  Why does it have to be Ariel?  Why does it have to be Superman?  Why does it have to be Batman?  Why do this at all when there are creative minds out there who could solve the issue with new ideas?  Maybe Superman and Supergirl weren't the only babies saved from the destruction of Krypton.  Maybe that planet had black people too, and there was a colony that left sooner, and they come to earth to join the fight. 

My entire point has been about people making assumptions and automatic responses to what is not considered the correct response.  I'm glad you're so passionate about making the world better for your grandchildren.  I too want them to go to a movie and see a badass heroine who looks just like them save the world.  I just don't think changing existing characters is the answer to that.  Maybe Ariel had a cousin who was kept in the shadows because she was mixed race, but when a threat looms she's the only one brave enough to save the ocean.  Wouldn't that be a good story for your grandchildren?  Someone just like them overcoming adversity and being the hero. 

But of course, you see resistance to something, and you go into fight mode.  What is wearing me down is no one is truly listening to me.  This whole time I've written long responses with plenty in them not about a mermaid, but the mermaid is what you laser focus on.  We have been programmed to break out the pitchforks over everything that doesn't jive with the way we think.  I think differently than the average person.  I've lost black friends who see my comments and label me racist without ever hearing me out.  Yesterday I had a mob school me, and it took a huge emotional toll.  Maybe it was the straw that broke the camel's back because I've had a bad week.  I'm upset that I have ideas outside of the box to offer, but I dare not speak without being attacked.  It's not just the mermaid.  It's dozens of controversial topics over the past little while.  I've been broken by mob mentality into silence, and that is why I'm going to go cry in the shower now.     

[Oniya]

So, since no one has mentioned it - the 'fried chicken and watermelons' thing.  For one thing, both foods are cheap and easy to prepare.  Gourds in general are easy to grow, especially in the warmer climates.  Also, both foods are eaten with the hands, and in a rather messy manner (yes, it's possible to eat both with utensils, but nobody really bothers.)  Seed spitting was, until the development of 'seedless cultivars' an expected part of the process. 

A meal of 'fried chicken and watermelon' was therefore the meal of the poor, lazy, and sloppy.

The stereotype was further cemented by the 1915 move 'Birth of a Nation'.  To quote NPR:

D.W. Griffith's seminal and supremely racist 1915 silent movie about the supposedly heroic founding of the Ku Klux Klan was a huge sensation when it debuted. One scene in the [movie] features a group of actors portraying shiftless black elected officials acting rowdy and crudely in a legislative hall. (The message to the audience: These are the dangers of letting blacks vote.) Some of the legislators are shown drinking. Others had their feet kicked up on their desks. And one of them was very ostentatiously eating fried chicken.

"That image really solidified the way white people thought of black people and fried chicken," Schmidt said.

[Laughing Hyena]

Beau of the Fifth Column summed up this question and concern rather decently and gave a reasonable counterargument that Ariels character will shine through regardless of hair or skin colors. She will still have that curiosity and wonder.

She will still be relatable to you because her character is the same as always. The original animation isn't just gone forever and now other children will be able to share that ability to relate to her like you did the first time you saw it. More people can enjoy the same story you grew up with and will seek out the original as well.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ubE-arwpjk0

[Lyron]

At least to an extent, I kind of agree with Azy's overall sentiments. As someone who has also experienced being a minority, I understand the places where the attitudes may come from, but I do sometimes feel like some people are so keen on their fight for equality and the acceptance for diversity that they sometimes forget to allow people to be human and to express their feelings.

People get attached to things. Attachments are purely sentimental, and our feelings don't always perfectly align with our principles and rationality. I imagine some of us have had that favorite article of clothing that became impractical to keep, or that favorite band/artist who changed their sound. We can rationalize that change happens, and that the change can be a good thing, but, at least not for everyone, that doesn't necessarily erase the sadness or disappointment that the change may generate.

[TheGlyphstone]

Since it sort of got lost in the muddle, I'd like to take a moment to address this bit:

There is also the fact that I've heard about a black Batman.  A black Superman, a black Green Lantern, a black Spiderman.....  I'm not really into superheroes, and don't get into those arguments.  None of this has actually happened.  I have thoughts because I'm a thinking and feeling being.  It's been years now that I've been hearing about doing remakes of iconic characters that have meaning to people of my generation with black actors.  Coincidence?  I seriously doubt it. 

Black Superman: Steel, 1992
Black Green Lantern:John Stewart, 1972
Black Spiderman: Miles Morales, 2011
Black Batman: Timothy Fox, 2020 (the odd man out here - Tim has been canon since 1979, but he didnt put on the cowl until 2020)

These characters have been around for years - decades, in the case of Stewart. They are long-established* legacy characters in their own right, not remakes, and if you've never heard of them that is on you.

* again, excluding Fox, but even he's still a legacy inheritor


When Will Smith was cast to replace Robin Williams in the new Aladdin, there were plenty of concerns that he couldn't match William's talent but if there were widespread complaints about 'woke' casting a black voice actor instead of a white voice actor, I missed them.

When Chiwetel Ejiofor was selected to voice Scar in the new Lion King, I don't recall any complaints about 'woke' casting for replacing Jeremy Irons. The Lion King movie still kinda sucked, but that's beside the point.

Why is Ariel different?

[Beorning]

Okay, a bit of counter-argument, then:

Since it sort of got lost in the muddle, I'd like to take a moment to address this bit:

Black Superman: Steel, 1992
Black Green Lantern:John Stewart, 1972
Black Spiderman: Miles Morales, 2011
Black Batman: Timothy Fox, 2020 (the odd man out here - Tim has been canon since 1979, but he didnt put on the cowl until 2020)

These characters have been around for years - decades, in the case of Stewart. They are long-established* legacy characters in their own right, not remakes, and if you've never heard of them that is on you.

These examples don't really work, because all of these characters weren't created to replace Superman, Spider-Man etc.

Steel was introduced as one of four "replacement Supermen" that arose after Superman died fighting Doomsday. All of them were meant to be separate characters from the start. And none of them, Steel included, was intended to actually replace Clark Kent as DC's Superman. They were all part of a storyline that ended with Clark's return.

John Stewart *is* a Green Lantern... but one of many. Nobody rewrote history so that Hal Jordan was suddenly black - Stewart was, from the start, a separate character operating alongside Hal Jordan. Not to mention, "Green Lantern" isn't a singular hero, but a whole organization numbering in thousands.

Miles Morales was introduced as a new Spider-Man in the Ultimate-verse. Again, he didn't replace the "main" Spider-Man, he was his own thing...

All of these are different situations to what Azy seems to alude to: the ideas to make the *actual* Superman, Batman etc. black.

When Will Smith was cast to replace Robin Williams in the new Aladdin, there were plenty of concerns that he couldn't match William's talent but if there were widespread complaints about 'woke' casting a black voice actor instead of a white voice actor, I missed them.

I'd like to point out that the animated Genie didn't have any specific ethnicity, regardless of who voiced him. He was... well, blue. As was Will Smith when playing him in a live-action movie.

When Chiwetel Ejiofor was selected to voice Scar in the new Lion King, I don't recall any complaints about 'woke' casting for replacing Jeremy Irons. The Lion King movie still kinda sucked, but that's beside the point.

Again: these two versions of Scars were animated animals. The ethnicity of their voice actors just doesn't matter: the actual characters were still lions.

[TheGlyphstone]

Okay, a bit of counter-argument, then:

These examples don't really work, because all of these characters weren't created to replace Superman, Spider-Man etc.

Steel was introduced as one of four "replacement Supermen" that arose after Superman died fighting Doomsday. All of them were meant to be separate characters from the start. And none of them, Steel included, was intended to actually replace Clark Kent as DC's Superman. They were all part of a storyline that ended with Clark's return.

John Stewart *is* a Green Lantern... but one of many. Nobody rewrote history so that Hal Jordan was suddenly black - Stewart was, from the start, a separate character operating alongside Hal Jordan. Not to mention, "Green Lantern" isn't a singular hero, but a whole organization numbering in thousands.

Miles Morales was introduced as a new Spider-Man in the Ultimate-verse. Again, he didn't replace the "main" Spider-Man, he was his own thing...

All of these are different situations to what Azy seems to alude to: the ideas to make the *actual* Superman, Batman etc. black.

I'd like to point out that the animated Genie didn't have any specific ethnicity, regardless of who voiced him. He was... well, blue. As was Will Smith when playing him in a live-action movie.

Again: these two versions of Scars were animated animals. The ethnicity of their voice actors just doesn't matter: the actual characters were still lions.

My point is that Azy has no point, because there is not and never has been any attempt to 'replace' Superman, Batman, etc. It's a fantasy propagated the racist crowd by warping reality from the actual characters - legacy inheritors like I specifically said they were, into 'replacements'.

For example, remember the recent hullabaloo when people rose up complaining about how DC had 'made Superman gay'? Except that they were flat-out lying, because it was Johnathan Kent, Clark's son, who had come out (as bisexual, even, so they were wrong on two accounts). It's misinformation deliberately created by bad actors, then innocently repeated and spread by people who haven't read the material in question.


And that's the point here too. The live-action Little Mermaid is not 'replacing' the animated version - that's the warped interpretation, they exist simultaneously and in parallel to compliment each other by taking the essence of the character and making her relatable to a wider audience. If a person's need to be the only one who can relate to a character outweighs the potential for everyone to relate to that character...

[Azy]

And still nobody seems to understand my main point.  Lyron made a good point that people tend to get so rabid in defense of something they care about that they forget the person they're yelling at is human.  I was only trying to counter the assumption that not cheering this on must equal racist.  I wasn't the only one who got lambasted over this, and the person who started the conversation was very proud of herself for 'taking out the trash'.  Forgive me for being emotionally hurt for being called trash.  My explanation of the childhood icon thing was only that those can be powerful, especially to people with less than stellar childhoods.  I used to pretend I was Ariel in the bathtub.  It was my escape.  It was my way of coping with my parents being at each other's throats more often that not, and me being a wall ornament. 

Role playing and writing is my adult escape.  I'm sure many of you can understand that because you come here for the same reason.  Creating a story gets you out of your head.  As a child, my imagination and love of these characters is what helped me survive.  Emotions aren't logical.  I learned in cognitive behavioral therapy when you're in a high emotional state it is impossible to act in a rational matter.

I half remember the genie thing.  My only thought was that Robin Williams is an irreplaceable treasure, and it really sucks that he's no longer here.  I did not hear about the Lion King.  But honestly if you never see the actors doing the voices, what does that matter?  I don't think I ever knew who originally voiced scar until now.  The deep voice was certainly fitting.  I can't think of his name right now, but a black man voiced Mufasa.  I think it was only when she mentioned it at some point that I found out Whoopi Goldberg voiced one of the hyenas.  With animation you never know unless you look it up or notice the familiar name in the credits, and I straight up do not care.   

But the main point remains....  I am all for diverse representation.  I completely understand the desire to see it.  It was never an issue for me, at least regarding skin tone, but as an empathetic human being, I get where people are coming from.  Where I differ with the rest of the crowd is I don't like how it is being done.  What is really screwing with me emotionally is the mentality out there that if I don't one thousand percent agree with you, then I am your enemy.  There is no middle ground.  There is no civil honest discussion.  I'm no longer a human being with feelings.  I'm trash. 

Thank you, Oniya for clarifying.  I still don't get the rationale.  I'm white and grew up poor.  Instead of fried chicken it was deer steak for me, because that was the cost of the bullet it took to kill the deer, along with the deer license of course.  My mom also made amazing potato pancakes on special occasions.       

[Vekseid]

To me, there are two main cases where you can argue casting an actor of a different ethnicity/gender as inappropriate.

The most obvious is where it breaks verisimilitude - the feeling of a setting's self-correctness. Things like the black dwarf in Rings of Power or the black Valyrians in House of the Dragon. They put stress on the setting and can take a viewer out of it.

The second is where you have cultural figures, such as Heimdall and various key characters Troy: Fall of a City. In the latter case, it's more of an oddity, except as fuel for hoteps and other Afrosupremacists. There isn't a shortage of other media surrounding Troy or Greek myth.

Why is Heimdall black? Is it because he is liminal? Should there be something inherently terrifying and forbidding about black people? Seriously saw people make this argument and the people defending it often came off as more racist than the ones attacking it.

To be clear there is a laundry list of roles whites took from other ethnicities. They were wrong, also. Nor am I personally terribly bothered by the above, encounters with a particularly vile supremacist aside.

Spider-Man is an interesting one to mention as his purpose was to inherently be fluid. The specific idea was anyone could be behind that mask. So although Peter Parker is a white boy, there is nothing inherent to the role itself having a color. The superhero name is a title.



The problem has been there are so many racists poisoning the well it is exceedingly difficult to have a reasonable discourse. In this particular case, I question its drivers. It seems out of left field for Ariel to be a problem to me, as there is no logic or reason behind it other than 'white representation' which is hard to take seriously.

It feels closer to a viral marketing ploy by Disney than it does to actual criticism.

Speaking on Ariel, she is a character from a different world. Her story has been retold a dozen different times in the lifespan of some members here, and will be retold a dozen more. That is the inherent nature of such stories. Shakespear's Romeo and Juliet was the third telling.

Good stories get retold, over and over, changing each time. This is the nature of storytelling.

It isn't like this has been a constant, either. Belle was still white in the Beauty and the Beast live action adaptation. It was also by many accounts rather terrible, but such is par for most live action adaptations, especially by Disney. I don't have high hopes for The Little Mermaid based on this legacy, either.

I don't see any problem with Ariel's casting accordingly. She isn't part of a larger universe outside of Disney's own invention. She isn't even the first live-action take, or the second or the third. Disney recycling old stories is its own problem, but that issue is completely divorced from their choice of casting, here.

[Dice]

It has come up before, and likely will again.  It's the topic of a live remake of The Little Mermaid with the Ariel character being played by a black actress.  I've said before and been crucified, but I'll say it again, I'm not thrilled.  What I get crucified for is that because I'm a white person, well, I must be racist to have that opinion!  What other explanation could there be?  I'll tell you. 

"I'm bitching about a thing I haven't seen yet and my issue is the ethnicity of the lead, I swear it's not about racism."

Watch the movie when it comes out, then complain if she was a bad fit. Or don't. But if as your claiming it's going against your nostalgia just watch the cartoon. The live action Disney have been shit mostly anyway and your going to get exactly what you expect watching the older movie and not harm a soul doing it.

[Swidi]

Not a theist but, amen.

[Oniya]

Thank you, Oniya for clarifying.  I still don't get the rationale.  I'm white and grew up poor.  Instead of fried chicken it was deer steak for me, because that was the cost of the bullet it took to kill the deer, along with the deer license of course.  My mom also made amazing potato pancakes on special occasions.     

Another aspect that occurs to me is 'because you are [ethnicity] you must like to eat [stereotypical food].'  It 'de-individualizes' the target, and is particularly easy with people of visually distinct groups.  It's not that white people 'aren't supposed' to eat/enjoy these foods, it's that ethnic people are expected to enjoy these foods - not all Asians like sushi (additionally, not all Asian people are Japanese), not all Jewish people like lox, not all black people like watermelon.  It's a little harder to make the crack 'Oh, you're from Minnesota, I'll serve lutefisk' just by looking at someone

'Poor-folk food' can also be used in the same kind of subtle dig - take the stereotypes of 'squirrel stew' or almost any dish made with Hormel canned meats.  (I make an amazing Spam and potato fry, but I know folks who will turn up their noses if they see the can.)

[Beorning]

My point is that Azy has no point, because there is not and never has been any attempt to 'replace' Superman, Batman, etc. It's a fantasy propagated the racist crowd by warping reality from the actual characters - legacy inheritors like I specifically said they were, into 'replacements'.

Still, please note that Azy's point was never specifically about replacing Superman etc. These were just examples. Her main point was about the fact that, these days, it's really hard to discuss issues such as these without being accused of being racist. Which, actually, some of the replies in this thread illustrate perfectly... I mean, how many times did Azy explain *why* she's disappointed with the casting of Ariel? She gave her reasons - and yet, she gets replies that claim she's some sort of racist.

I admit I experienced such treatment myself and it's really frustrating.

For example, remember the recent hullabaloo when people rose up complaining about how DC had 'made Superman gay'? Except that they were flat-out lying, because it was Johnathan Kent, Clark's son, who had come out (as bisexual, even, so they were wrong on two accounts). It's misinformation deliberately created by bad actors, then innocently repeated and spread by people who haven't read the material in question.

I know and I'm not saying that there are no racists and otherwise bigoted people out there. I've been following some of the Rings Of Power-related online discussions / arguments / shouting matches  and it's clear to me that some of the people yelling "This show is so woke and it sucks!!!!" seem to have some really unpleasant underlying attitudes.

That said, not every person who criticizes the casting in ROP or is unhappy with Ariel, is necessarily one of these people. For example, I can imagine that somebody has a really firm image of Disney' Ariel set in their minds and just cannot see that character in the actress chosen for the live movie. Such a person isn't necessarily a racist - but still, she'd be probably accused of being racist by the online crowd anyway...

And one more thing - it's not like it's only the racist crowd that engages in bad faith arguments. I've seen a form of it in relation to ROP - and, a bit disappointingly, one of the people who made unfair arguments was none other than Neil Gaiman... Who, recently, claimed that black hobbits are obviously canon in LOTR because Tolkien made a passing a reference to one hobbit tribe having a bit darker complexion than other hobbits. And added that, clearly, people who don't like the idea of black hobbits are either ignorant or racist... So, apparently, according to Gaiman, "darker complexion" and "black" are necessarily the same thing - and that missing one small sentence in a huge book equals ignorance. Seriously?

And that's the point here too. The live-action Little Mermaid is not 'replacing' the animated version - that's the warped interpretation, they exist simultaneously and in parallel to compliment each other by taking the essence of the character and making her relatable to a wider audience. If a person's need to be the only one who can relate to a character outweighs the potential for everyone to relate to that character...

But Azy didn't say that. She was talking purely about her personal feelings. Come on.

To me, there are two main cases where you can argue casting an actor of a different ethnicity/gender as inappropriate.

The most obvious is where it breaks verisimilitude - the feeling of a setting's self-correctness. Things like the black dwarf in Rings of Power or the black Valyrians in House of the Dragon. They put stress on the setting and can take a viewer out of it.

If I may share a personal experience... in one online discussion I raised *the exact same point* and I was *still* accused of being racist.

I didn't even mention the black Valyrians - I don't have a problem with them, personally. I referred strictly to ROP and how I wasn't sure that black elves, dwarves and hobbits work, considering Tolkien's influences. And how the one black hobbit in the Harfoot tribe wasn't believeable - because I felt it made no sense for a small, insular community to have this kind of ethnic variety. And I repeated: I had no problem with stuff like Death being black in Netflix's Sandman, or with some other characters in that show being played by black people. I just mentioned that ROP issues. And I even said that I understand the noble intentions for such casting choices, and that I wasn't terribly angry about it. I said *all* of this... and I *still* had complete strangers insist that I should reconsider my opinion, because I clearly have some racist attitudes in my head...

So yeah... I get what Azy is talking about.

[GloomCookie]

Vekseid raises a good point in that sometimes casting the wrong actors for a part can take an audience out of the experience. I don't care that there are black actors in a film or movie, I just feel like if this particular group identifies as a cohesive group, then they should more or less look similar and share accents. If the group is mixed all up and down and has wildly different accents even between parents and children, then it doesn't make sense.

In the case of Heimdal from Thor though... It's Idris Ilba I don't care that man can be whoever he damn well pleases!

[TheGlyphstone]

Now I'm reminded of the version of Othello where Sir Patrick Stewart plays the lead role. For anyone unfamiliar with the play, Othello is the sole Moor in an otherwise lily-white/European cast - in SPS's version, he is the sole white actor and they deliberately cast African-American actors and actresses to fill every other role to create a race-flipped performance as artistic expression. By all accounts it's an excellent adaptation, being otherwise 100% faithful to the original script, but at the same time it's undeniable that the racial makeup of the cast was the first priority. Where would people judge something like that, in comparison to this controversy?

[Lyron]

Why is Ariel different?

Couldn't the difference be that the Disney princesses are particularly iconic to little girls who have grown up watching the movies? The Genie is iconic in his own right, no doubt, and I'm sure there are some people who see parts of themselves in him, but is it to the same extent as any of the princesses?

And hopefully no one specially relates to Scar.

I can't really speak on the superhero front, though, as someone who hasn't done more than very casually dip into that world. But if superheroes are regularly reincarnated, couldn't that make the change in person easier, compared to a fandom like classic Disney, where that (at least as far as I know, as someone who doesn't pay much attention to Disney) hasn't previously been done from a visual representation? I'm honestly asking.

To be clear, I support Ariel having a race change. I also appreciate the logic for being supportive of the change. But I also don't have an attachment to Ariel or any of the other princesses. (I'm my own queen. ) I actually didn't even know this was happening until I saw Beau's video.

I just don't see "ya racist" as being particularly conducive (not saying you're doing this Glyph), because I personally feel like it misses nuance. And if someone does have racial bias, saying "ya racist" probably is not going to help break them from those trappings, when they are very clearly sentimental about the thing that's changing.

Personally, I detested that Crash Bandicoot was remade when I first learned about it. I thought he was just the coolest marsupial as an ~8-year-old, and I felt like his new rendition didn't support the childhood image I still held of him. I don't see Ariel's case as necessarily being fundamentally different from Crash's. Race complicates it, no doubt, especially when there are bad faith actors. I just don't think "selfish" necessarily equates to "racist" in a topic like this 100% of the time.

[Thufir Hawat]

Couldn't the difference be that the Disney princesses are particularly iconic to little girls who have grown up watching the movies? The Genie is iconic in his own right, no doubt, and I'm sure there are some people who see parts of themselves in him, but is it to the same extent as any of the princesses?

And hopefully no one specially relates to Scar.

I can't really speak on the superhero front, though, as someone who hasn't done more than very casually dip into that world. But if superheroes are regularly reincarnated, couldn't that make the change in person easier, compared to a fandom like classic Disney, where that (at least as far as I know, as someone who doesn't pay much attention to Disney) hasn't previously been done from a visual representation? I'm honestly asking.

To be clear, I support Ariel having a race change. I also appreciate the logic for being supportive of the change. But I also don't have an attachment to Ariel or any of the other princesses. (I'm my own queen. ) I actually didn't even know this was happening until I saw Beau's video.

I just don't see "ya racist" as being particularly conducive (not saying you're doing this Glyph), because I personally feel like it misses nuance. And if someone does have racial bias, saying "ya racist" probably is not going to help break them from those trappings, when they are very clearly sentimental about the thing that's changing.

Personally, I detested that Crash Bandicoot was remade when I first learned about it. I thought he was just the coolest marsupial as an ~8-year-old, and I felt like his new rendition didn't support the childhood image I still held of him. I don't see Ariel's case as necessarily being fundamentally different from Crash's. Race complicates it, no doubt, especially when there are bad faith actors. I just don't think "selfish" necessarily equates to "racist" in a topic like this 100% of the time.

*slow clap*

[Envious]

I don't like that Ariel was cast as a black person because I 100% believe this is Disney's way of being "diverse" instead of creating something unique featuring people of color in a meaningful and authentic way. I haven't looked, but I'd bet the the actor who plays her dad is white and and if there are other roles filled by people of color, it's probably through voice acting roles. Because isn't that just the norm? Remaking a character to have a different skin color is (often) not representation. BUT I do believe it is a start of representation and it is opening up the door for mainstreaming non-white presenting people in lead roles and in "popular, big-budget" media in general. So I don't like it because I think it was lazy and Disney has billions of dollars it spends on creating content, but in the same breath, I fully support Ariel being black. Tricky!

Can we talk about how the movie looks ugly, though? I get that the setting is under the sea, but I don't like the semi-realistic underwater lighting. Everything looks dark and murky when I want bright and lively! I hope they update the aesthetic and that is my only true complaint about the movie itself.

[Iniquitous]

In the case of House of the Dragon and the black Velaryons.  I’ll first point out that the creator of the world, George R.R. Martin, doesn’t seem to have an issue with the casting of a person of color.  I’ll then point out that while House Targaryen may have largely interbred, the same wasn’t true of other Houses. The Velaryons’ ships served as dragons of the sea, carrying them all over the known world, and Corlys’ mother isn’t described. It’s perfectly possible that she too was Black, and that Corlys inherited genetic traits from both his parents.

I have no issue with black Velaryons because it is completely possible.  It doesn’t take me out of the setting, it doesn’t cause my suspension of disbelief to fail, it doesn’t detract from the story.  I mean, if I am okay with dragons then a black person isn’t going to bother me.

In the case of a black dwarf/black harfoot/blak elf in The Rings of Power. Harfoots were described by Tolkien as being “browner in complexion than Hobbits” and were the most common type of hobbit.  Throws that whole ‘insular community’ argument out the window.  As for the black dwarves and elves - there is absolutely nothing in Tolkien’s work that says a black dwarf or black elf cannot exist.  And before anyone tries to use the “fair of face” description please remember that could mean fair as in beautiful. Tolkien was a known anti-racist so there is no reason to think he was trying to keep his fantasy realm purely white. And again - the Harfoot would be proof of that.

All this bitching over the casting of black actors and yet there never seems to be a huge outcry when Hollywood whitewashes the fuck out of stories/legends. I think the only outcries I have ever heard (and this is not me saying it hasn’t happened more than the number of times I mention) was the M. Night Shymalan disaster Avatar: The Last Airbender and the Cleopatra movie that has cast Gal Gadot as Cleopatra.  In the case of The Last Airbender - the criticism was right.  I don’t believe there was one actor of Asian descent in that travesty.  In the case of Cleopatra - the bitching is incorrect as Cleopatra was white.  She was Macedonian for crying out loud. I digress though - the point is, it seems that the vast majority are perfectly content to accept whitewashing, but let black actors get cast and it’s the end of the world.

I think the reason that the discussions (read arguments) immediately go to “you are racist” is because the arguments against the casting of black actors tends to be a) poorly communicated and/or b) flimsy excuses to cover someone’s prejudice. 

I'm a little disappointed that I won't be able to watch that new remake (if it ever actually comes out) and not be transported back to that theater as a 4 or 5 year old girl with my daddy.  People tell me well, the cartoon version isn't going to disappear, you'll still have it.  True, but if I'm going to watch a remake, I want that connection to the original.  I want those warm and fuzzy feelings to come back, but I feel that there will be a disconnect with changes.

If your only reason for disliking the casting of a black actor in a role is “the animated movie holds a special memory for me” then I have an issue because you are, in essence, saying that children of color should not get the chance to have their own special memory of that character looking like them. Your complaint smacks of selfishness. I want, I want, I want.  Me, me, me.

And I DO get it! Emotions are not logical and trying to apply logic to them is pointless because your brain may understand the logic but your feelings don’t care.  But dare I say this is why you have lost some black friends.  Your argument against a black Ariel has offended them because it is coming across as ‘this is MY special memory and they can’t change this to give black children the same special kind of memory because it is MINE.’ 

So yes, your argument is construed as you are being racist and they have decided to end the friendship. I mean, I get what they are saying.  My very first reaction was “yep. Racist.” because the argument is flimsy on the logical level.

Is there a way to have this discussion without losing friends and being labeled a racist?  Honestly?  Doubtful, because you are never going to make everyone happy.  You can try to explain your position better, but you are dealing with emotions - both yours and theirs.  Trying to assert that you have the right to a special memory and they don’t have the right to that kind of special memory is never going to go your way.  Trying to tell them that they should get their own characters in their own stories smacks of racism as well. It is othering them, telling them that they could never see themselves in these stories because of their ethnicity.

[Beorning]

In the case of House of the Dragon and the black Velaryons.  I’ll first point out that the creator of the world, George R.R. Martin, doesn’t seem to have an issue with the casting of a person of color.  I’ll then point out that while House Targaryen may have largely interbred, the same wasn’t true of other Houses. The Velaryons’ ships served as dragons of the sea, carrying them all over the known world, and Corlys’ mother isn’t described. It’s perfectly possible that she too was Black, and that Corlys inherited genetic traits from both his parents.

I agree with that. As I mentioned, I don't have a problem with Velaryons...

I have no issue with black Velaryons because it is completely possible.  It doesn’t take me out of the setting, it doesn’t cause my suspension of disbelief to fail, it doesn’t detract from the story.  I mean, if I am okay with dragons then a black person isn’t going to bother me.

... although I have an issue with the reasoning above. I've heard it multiple times: "If you have no problem believing dragons / magic / other elements of a fantasy setting, you cannot have problems with believing a black person appearing". And it's simply untrue, because it conflates two different kinds of believeability: the believeability of the setting's science / bestiary / physics (for the lack of better term) and the believeability of the setting's human behaviour, social workings etc.

In other words, it's entirely possible to have no problem believing in the dragons existing in the story, while finding a black character appearing in some place in the setting just unbelieveable and / or inconsistent with how the rest of the world is presented.

In the case of a black dwarf/black harfoot/blak elf in The Rings of Power. Harfoots were described by Tolkien as being “browner in complexion than Hobbits” and were the most common type of hobbit. Throws that whole ‘insular community’ argument out the window.

And I will repeat: "browner in complexion" doesn't equal "black". I can mean all kinds of things - let me direct you to Polish actress Kamila Ścibiorek:




As you can see, she noticeably darker in complexion from a typical Polish person, but she's not black. She's Romani (at least that's what I've heard). So, no - the fact that Tolkien mentioned the Harfoots being "browner" doesn't mean he meant for them to be black. This is the same kind of desperate looking for canon justifications for ROP casting choices as the idea that Tolkien mentioning "dark elves" at some point meant he imagined a subgroup of black-skinned elves.

As for the "insular community" - the Harfoots in the show *are* shown to be a small community with no real contact with outsiders. So, it does beg the question why there's one single black hobbit there. Genetics just don't work that way.

As for the black dwarves and elves - there is absolutely nothing in Tolkien’s work that says a black dwarf or black elf cannot exist.  And before anyone tries to use the “fair of face” description please remember that could mean fair as in beautiful. Tolkien was a known anti-racist so there is no reason to think he was trying to keep his fantasy realm purely white.

He didn't keep Middle-Earth purely white. He had non-white people in his world, like the Haradrim etc. And as black elves and dwarves - it's debatable. After all, he did model these race on European mythology (the Fair folk, nordic dwarves etc.). So, one could argue that it might mean he imagined these races as white.

And let me be clear: I'm not a ROP hater - I watch the show and I rather enjoy it.

All this bitching over the casting of black actors and yet there never seems to be a huge outcry when Hollywood whitewashes the fuck out of stories/legends. I think the only outcries I have ever heard (and this is not me saying it hasn’t happened more than the number of times I mention) was the M. Night Shymalan disaster Avatar: The Last Airbender and the Cleopatra movie that has cast Gal Gadot as Cleopatra.  In the case of The Last Airbender - the criticism was right.  I don’t believe there was one actor of Asian descent in that travesty.  In the case of Cleopatra - the bitching is incorrect as Cleopatra was white.  She was Macedonian for crying out loud. I digress though - the point is, it seems that the vast majority are perfectly content to accept whitewashing, but let black actors get cast and it’s the end of the world.

Actually, I was also very, very annoyed when Scarlett Johansen was chosen to play Motoko Kusanagi. In fact, I found it way more offensive than what ROP is doing. So... how does it fit with the idea that if you disagree about black hobbits existing in Tolkien's world, then you're a racist who wants to see only white people in movies?