Hot button topics, lack of civility, and generalizations.

[TheGlyphstone]

Looking at the links and other info - Keelan's not entirely wrong to be worried here. Girl-power movies are all well and good, especially in the greatly neglected realm of African history, but if the narrative glosses over or....ahem...whitewashes the Dahomey participation in the slave trade, it'd be doing a disservice to history. They might have been fighting for freedom from the Oyo, but it sounds like they turned around and treated smaller+weaker tribes in exactly the same fashion, and the Amazons were an active element in their slaving raids.

I'm willing to reserve final judgement until the movie actually comes out, but the director's comments about the issue are vague enough to be taken either way depending on how much dramatic license is applied in telling the story:

In response to concerns about how her movie will depict Dahomey’s engagement with European slave traders, Prince-Bythewood told the Hollywood Reporter, “We’re going to tell the truth. We’re not going to shy away from anything. But also we’re telling a part of the story which is about overcoming and fighting for what’s right.”

Portraying the Agojie, through Nanisca’s actions, as critics of the slave trade makes for a “nice story,” says Larsen in an interview. “Do I think it’s historically accurate? I’m skeptical.” She adds, “These women are symbols of strength and of power. But … they’re [also] complicit in a problematic system. They are still under the patriarchy of the king, and they are still players in the slave trade.”

[Azy]

Looking at the links and other info - Keelan's not entirely wrong to be worried here. Girl-power movies are all well and good, especially in the greatly neglected realm of African history, but if the narrative glosses over or....ahem...whitewashes the Dahomey participation in the slave trade, it'd be doing a disservice to history. They might have been fighting for freedom from the Oyo, but it sounds like they turned around and treated smaller+weaker tribes in exactly the same fashion, and the Amazons were an active element in their slaving raids.

I'm willing to reserve final judgement until the movie actually comes out, but the director's comments about the issue are vague enough to be taken either way depending on how much dramatic license is applied in telling the story:

In a way, if the movie does bring that to light, it puts more light on the truth than has been in quite some time.  The narrative going in this world is the evil Europeans came and kidnapped Africans.  No, they sold each other out. 

Not saying that Europeans are absolved in any way, because they were on the other side of the trade.  The truth however, is sometimes more horrifying than the fairy tale.  Perhaps if they hadn't offered each other up slavery would still have happened.  Or  there might've been genocide, which happened in the Americas. 

Still, crying about the past just gets us angry about everything.  As I said, world history is chock full of fucked up.  This movie was intended to bring representation of African culture to a whitewashed society, but because it's about real history instead of mythical characters we must be indignant?  So black mythical creatures need to be celebrated, but real black people did bad things, so we can't have that.  I'm called racist over a mythical creature, but it's perfectly fine to vilify real people. 

Like seriously, this is blowing my mind.  After everything that has been said to me.  I'm a horrible person because somehow my dislike of remakes is me telling the black community they don't have a place there.  It is not racist to say to the black community, well, I know we talk about white history all the time.  And I know we sanitize it and try not to talk about the bad stuff.  However, your ancestors as a whole did bad things, so it would be morally wrong to tell their story.  Sorry, but you can't have a place in actual history.  But hey, you get a mermaid, so it's cool!  Am I in the Twilight Zone?     

[TheGlyphstone]

You still don't seem to be able to explain to us why it's so horrible. You will always have the animated movie, and more specifically, it will always, exclusively, be yours for the rest of your life because no one is ever going to re-release an animated Little Mermaid with a black Ariel.

Why are you so vehemently against letting black little girls have the live-action Ariel to identify with while you keep the animated Ariel? Why do you need to have both of them?

This is why accusations of racism are being made, because you are unwilling to share. You've moved the goalposts to being upset about remakes in general, but that's not where this thread started.

[Azy]

You still don't seem to be able to explain to us why it's so horrible. You will always have the animated movie, and more specifically, it will always, exclusively, be yours for the rest of your life because no one is ever going to re-release an animated Little Mermaid with a black Ariel.

Why are you so vehemently against letting black little girls have the live-action Ariel to identify with while you keep the animated Ariel? Why do you need to have both of them?

This is why accusations of racism are being made, because you are unwilling to share. You've moved the goalposts to being upset about remakes in general, but that's not where this thread started.

And you deflect back to the original topic.  It's easier to attack me again about an already dead horse than admit possibly you're being a bit of a hypocrite.  I've already explained this several dozen times.  It's not about sharing.  Of course that was also an original issue of mine, YOU are telling ME what me feelings and motives are.  It's because I think tossing someone a remake and going yay, representation is garbage.   It's because I think tossing someone a remake and going yay, representation is garbage.   It's because I think tossing someone a remake and going yay, representation is garbage.   It's because I think tossing someone a remake and going yay, representation is garbage.

Do I need to keep copying and pasting here?   It's because I think tossing someone a remake and going yay, representation is garbage..  Bloody hell, it seems I have to go for gross extreme repetition here to be heard.  It's because I think tossing someone a remake and going yay, representation is garbage.  Because if I don't you'll just keep arguing back to tell me how I feel, because it's a general argument used to defend race and representation.  It may be true in many cases, but not every single time.   It's because I think tossing someone a remake and going yay, representation is garbage.  That's why I haven't told you why I'm so upset with sharing.  I'M NOT!!!   I'M NOT!!!!  Do I have to repeat that 20 more times?  I"M NOT!!!!   

I GENERALLY DO NOT CARE ABOUT LACK OF WHITE REPRESENTATION!!  I KNOW A BLACK MERMAID DOES NOT TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM ME!!  MY SOLE ISSUE IS THAT IT'S A REMAKE!!  I DON'T LIKE REMAKES BECAUSE THEY ARE LAZY AND NOTHING BUT REHEATED LEFTOVERS!!  Seriously, is this now through you're well meaning but thick and determined to paint me as a racist skull?  Or do I need to copy and paste that about 5 more times before you get it?  Not being heard is yet another thing I was griping about, and the warriors of social justice seem to be no better here.  You do not want to hear anything but what strokes your confirmation bias. 

What you didn't do is respond to anything I said in my last post.  I've spent the past 4 days now being lambasted over a black mermaid.  Words have been put in my mouth that by saying a remake isn't good enough, that I'm telling people of color they have no place is fairy tales.  What I am hearing now though, is that the only have a place in fairy tales. 

White history gets tolled all the time.  It's sanitized, yes.  I do think the real history needs to be told, warts, scars, and all.  White history gets taught in schools.  African history is what I've learned the least about.  But no, no, no, can't have that!  It reveals the truth.  Makes it kind of hard to twist that screw of white guilt if the ugly truth is revealed.  Maybe people of African decent aren't the poor innocent defenseless victims kidnapped by white people from their beds you put on t-shirts and wave signs to defend.  They sold each other. 

It also muddies the argument of reparations.  So like, European countries bought African people for slaves.  But do we go after the African nations that did the selling?  The people of Dahomey had this army that was pretty ruthless, and when Europe came knocking, they sold their Oyo, and very likely other captives to the Europeans.  This is what Keelan thought was so important for us to know.  Now I'm caught up, and y'all don't like what I saw.  Of course the Oyo sold their captives of war as well.  Many African nations did.  It kind of makes them like.... human.  Wow....  African people were just like any other human civilization.  Trippy.   

I've actually known for quite some times that Africans sold other Africans, I just never knew a lot of details.  Keelan was so quick to point out that movie evil cuz thugs and slavery.  Okay, well, it's the actual history.  Again, it muddies the good black and black ally people vs the evil everyone else narrative this country has going.     

The ONLY reason I brought up the mermaid thing again was I find it completely insane and twisted that it's perfectly okay to rake me over the coals because of a differing opinion when it comes to people of color and fictional characters, but at the same time it is also completely fine to be upset about a movie that tells the truth about African history (tells it at all really), and use moral outrage over slavery as a reason.  Basically, to me, you're saying to the people of African descent you absolutely have the right to be part of fiction.  Oh, but tell your history?  Sorry, we can't do that!  Why?  Because as good moral white people your history involves slavery, and we must never speak of it.  We must shame the Europeans and tell the truth about everything they did, but we can't tell your story, especially since it involves African people who sold their captives.  Well, yes, we know it's true, but it's slavery, and slavery is bad.  Well, yes, we want to expose European slavery.  That's what being a good moral person is.  How is it different?  Evil white people, innocent Africans.  You see?  Telling your story and your history would completely ruin our talking points and humanize you rather than some helpless thing we need to be good allies and defend. 

The world is not black and white, good and evil.  There is a crapload of gray out there, especially when you let the truth see the light of day.  You are telling people of African descent it is not okay to tell their history and their truth, especially if it paints them in a less than flattering light, no matter how accurate and true it is.  But that's okay, because they get to have fiction, and that magically solves everything. 

I seriously do not want to hear anything more about mermaids.  Not only have you caused me to feel seriously attacked and depressed and hopeless, but any nostalgia and fond memories I had are gone.  Do whatever the fuck you want to with Ariel.  I don't care anymore.  At this point if you bought me a DVD of the animated original I'd burn it.  You actually have taken it from me because anytime I hear any mention of it all I'm going to remember is how I feel right now.  I'm tapping out.  I had just managed to come back from a suicidal state only to get dragged right back there because no one wants to hear what I think.  They want their mob.

No, I'm not making any splashy suicide threats for attention or to make anyone feel bad.  I'm only pointing out that I too am a human being.  I've had an absolutely shit week.  I'm prone to depression, and suicidal thoughts.  That was my argument about lack of civility.  You're so busy being social justice warriors with keyboard courage you don't care about my humanity or feelings.  Lately it's been fuck my feelings, you're right and I'm just evil.                 

[Iniquitous]

Ok, so again, the tone of my text as I write this is not to be hateful.  How you, the reader, takes it may not be the tone I wrote this in.

Azy.  I have watched this thread, and your posts, change (as Glyphstone pointed out) and I have sat here trying hard not to just throw my hands in the air and declare this as a “I’m a victim because people call me racist!” post.  But honestly, that is exactly how it seems.

It has been explained to you why there are those who are saying you are racist and you have, for whatever reason, chosen to ignore it. 

First, it was -

I don't have a lot of good memories from my childhood, but that Disney cartoon movie was the first movie I got to see in a theater.  It was my dad's birthday, but somehow I was treated.  It wasn't something he did often, but he wanted me to have that experience.  All of the other live remakes that have come out have been fairly true to the original Disney animated version, so to have one that has a special place in my heart like that be changed just for the sake of placating other people, I'm a little disappointed.  I'm not angry.  I'm not going to protest.  I'm a little disappointed that I won't be able to watch that new remake (if it ever actually comes out) and not be transported back to that theater as a 4 or 5 year old girl with my daddy.  People tell me well, the cartoon version isn't going to disappear, you'll still have it.  True, but if I'm going to watch a remake, I want that connection to the original.  I want those warm and fuzzy feelings to come back, but I feel that there will be a disconnect with changes. 

And to be fair, you did have a paragraph about the recycling of ideas, but that was not the main reason you listed for your upset at them making a live-action black Ariel.  Your main reason is the one I quoted above. Your own words.

Then, you go on about how you are not actually upset about this whole situation.  You aren’t?  You posted a rant on a forum about it and stated you

I've been broken by mob mentality into silence, and that is why I'm going to go cry in the shower now.

Sure seems like you are very upset about this whole situation.

Next, we have a shift again, this time to how it’s all because of how you think and are not in support of how black representation is being done that has people calling you racist.  How you are an independent thinker and no one seems to understand that.

So, I am going to bring this up again.  If the only way you are happy about POC getting representation in the media is with new stories specifically for them, you are othering them.  You may not mean to be, you may think this is a wonderful thing.  ‘Your own stories! Your own heroes! Your own legends!’ but what is being heard is ‘you aren’t welcome to OUR stories, OUR heroes, OUR legends.’ Why shouldn’t they get a chance to see themselves in our stories, as our heroes, in our legends?  Why shouldn’t a little black girl get to see a black Ariel? They got a black Cinderella and a black Fairy Godmother and the world didn’t end. 

The point you seem to be missing is that no one race owns these stories.  Every child should be able to see themselves in them.  This isn’t like some finite resource where you will have less (or nothing) if others are given some.  It really is all about sharing - what we were all supposedly taught in kindergarten.

If this is such a big deal to the memory you have with your father, then don’t watch the live-action (as stated previously, Disney’s history with live-action remakes sucks and I don’t expect this to be any better) and keep those warm and fuzzy memories with the animated version. Easy peasy, right?  And, to keep from having these types of disagreements with friends, don’t indulge in the topic. ‘Yeah, I heard about it but I am not a fan of live-action remakes/remakes in general cause I think it is lazy, so I won’t be seeing it.’  You can be an independent thinker and not alienate people by learning how to phrase things. No one is beating you into silence - you are getting repercussions from stating your opinions in ways that others are taking offense to.  That means you need to look at how you are presenting your opinions and why others are getting upset at them.

I mean, sure, you can continue to just blurt out your opinions. No one is saying you can’t. But you have to accept that, while you have the right to say them, there are consequences for saying them.  Most times it is easier to look at how you said something and finding a better way to say it.

Now.

The Woman King.  General Nanisca did not exist. Let’s get that straight first and foremost.  The movie is based on a true story with extensive dramatic license.

I think it is great that Hollywood is reaching into African history to make movies. I’d love to see more movies/shows about African history (and not just during Black History month). But that doesn’t mean that black people shouldn’t be able to see themselves in what has been predominantly white fairytales and myths.

Oh, and for the record - the cast of the live-action remake of The Little Mermaid is pretty damn diverse.

Javier Bardum - King Triton
Melissa McCarthy - Ursula
Daveed Diggs - Sebastian (POC)
Awkwafina - Scuttle (Asian)
Jonah Hauer-King - Prince Eric
Lorena Andrea - Perla
Noma Dumezweni - Queen Selina (POC)
Art Malik - Grimsby
Jacob Tremblay - Flounder
Simone Ashley - character not listed (POC)
Lin Manuel Miranda - character not listed
Jessica Alexander - character not listed (POC)
Emily Coates - character not listed
Jude Akuwudike - character not listed (POC)
Russell Balogh - character not listed
Adrian Christopher - character not listed (POC)

So, it’s not just shoe-horning a black person into the role of Ariel for token representation.

Either way, I really think the end solution is to not bother seeing the movie and not having this kind of discussion with others unless you find a better way to express your position (which I obviously still do not understand if you keep saying no one is understanding you) or get okay with the consequences of expressing your position in this manner real quick.

[Azy]

Mods, please just lock this.  I tried, because it needs to happen for my own sanity, but I guess that was disabled.  My responses were tailored to who and what I was responding, and trying to explain why things aren't necessarily just racist, there may be other explanations.  I can't win.  Please just lock it.  And if you want to say I'm just crying victim, fine.  I am getting really upset and triggered.  I'm on the phone with my therapist trying very hard not to self harm. 

And it's not just this conversation.  I've had a seriously demoralizing and crap week.  This is the cherry on top, and I can't take it anymore.  You don't know me.  You don't know what I'm currently going through.  Your words are impacting me in a way that is not good.  I already stated that in my last post, but it just couldn't be left alone.  Please just lock it and let's forget I ever said a damn thing.