War: Russia vs. Ukraine?

[Dashenka]

If you support Trump, you support women being denied access to abortion (and whatever his junta in the Supreme Court goes for next, be that contraceptive or marriage rights).

You support the systematic oppression and dehumanisation of LGBT+ people. You support armed insurrections trying to overthrow legal elections, threats of political violence, fawning praise for Russia, the embrace of conspiracy theories over science, and the praising of Actual Effing Nazis. You cannot now seriously claim you don't know what sort of human he is, or what his cult stands for and wishes to accomplish.

No. I don't.

But here I am, preferring Trump over Biden,

Where did I say I support Trump?

your unwillingness to show support for LGBT+ rights or the lives of black people.

And let's not forget the hate I get because I refuse to take a knee or fly a rainbow flag, so I must be a racist homophobe.

Where did I say I don't support LGBTQ rights? Where did I say I was unwilling to show support for the lives of black people?

I cannot stand for equality when I'm on my knees now can I?



You (and a lot of people) see everything in black or white, left or right, high or low. This or that.

There's a whole big middle ground. Try it once. It's fantastic.

[Vekseid]

Dashenka, if you're going to present Trump as being a legitimate person to support, then you need to expect to be asked to account for that claim. Whether or not you personally believe it.

Trump and his supporters are textbook fascist. People do not need to be okay with that, people do not need to respect that.

And seeing as how the dude set policies in motion that could have forced me to shut this site down eventually - I can't run it anywhere else - it isn't something taken lightly here.

I ignored this because this is off topic. If you want to continue please make a new thread or take it to the Trump thread, please.

[Dashenka]

I didn't say I support him. Never have, never will.


*back on topic now*

[Azuresun]

I didn't say I support him. Never have, never will.

Knock it off. You said you "preferred" him to a non-insane president.

*back on topic now*

Yeah, you don't get to get in one last swing and then declare the argument finished. Not how it works.

You (and a lot of people) see everything in black or white, left or right, high or low. This or that.

There's a whole big middle ground. Try it once. It's fantastic.

Thing is, sometimes there isn't. Sometimes there is actual, real, legitimate evil.

You are looking at an invading army that is committing genocide. Committing mass rapes. Setting up torture chambers. Exiling civilians to prison camps. Shipping off CHILDREN for forced adoption. Randomly shelling and murdering civilians because their leader threw a wobbly about a bridge.

Whatabouting on their behalf is defending them and apologising for them. I mean, you keep wriggling around, you keep claiming you're totally not a Russian apologist but then drawing straight from the very standard, very familiar list of Botski talking points that get deployed to try and muddy the waters with an avalanche of whataboutisms. Not a good look.

[Dashenka]

Knock it off. You said you "preferred" him to a non-insane president.

I prefer falling down the stairs over being on fire.

Doesn't mean I go around hurling myself off every stairs I see. Just because I prefer something doesn't mean I support something.




I'm not wriggling around anything. I just want peace for Ukraine, like everybody else. The how and what, we differ in opinion. But we all want the same.

[Laughing Hyena]

History is repeating itself right now. Ukraine is the modern-day Botswana that is winning against Russia who fills the role of the Ottoman Empire. When last I looked, Ukraine was winning this war despite everything including the recent drone attacks.

I have seen this talk many times when missile and drone strikes happen in Ukrainian territory. Many talk of quicker ways to end this by means of peace via annexing the lost territory to Russia. It's not the answer.

Appeasing Russia's leader via annexing taken territory is not peace, it's surrender. How this ends is important to Ukraine yes, not just in short term but long term.

All I can hope for is that hopefully anti air is next in good news for the Ukrainians because it will cut off Russia's go to stragety and seemingly only advantage of artillery. Either way I know Ukraine isn't giving up.

[Azuresun]

I'm not wriggling around anything. I just want peace for Ukraine, like everybody else. The how and what, we differ in opinion. But we all want the same.

Letting Russia gain anything would not in any meaningful way be peace.

Anyone who believes Putin would not be back for more in another few years (from Ukraine or some other country where a cassus belli can be engineered--maybe "liberating the ethnic Russians" who entered other countries to flee the draft, that's certainly cynical and evil enough for Putin) has really not been paying attention to the Russian pattern of constant expansion and annexation. Either this ends with Russia's dreams of empire being slain and a stake driven through their heart....or we kick the can down the road a few years, perhaps to a time when the Russian disinformation engine has placed more far-right puppets around Europe, the Trumplicans have a new useful idiot in the White House, and the empire-building can proceed with less resistance.

History is repeating itself right now. Ukraine is the modern-day Botswana that is winning against Russia who fills the role of the Ottoman Empire. When last I looked, Ukraine was winning this war despite everything including the recent drone attacks.

What it reminds me of is the shift in German tactics from attacking British military infrastructure to waging a terror campaign against civilian population centres in WW2. Morally depraved and militarily useless at the same time.

[TheGlyphstone]

I'm not sure why a Russian expatriate living in England feels so vehemently, personally affected by American presidents, myself. It's not like England had to deal with Trump's inaction on Covid (or, to play devil's mirror here, the inflationary side effects of the American Rescue).

[gaggedLouise]

I'm not sure why a Russian expatriate living in England feels so vehemently, personally affected by American presidents, myself. It's not like England had to deal with Trump's inaction on Covid (or, to play devil's mirror here, the inflationary side effects of the American Rescue).

I felt even more strongly than she does here, but about Trump and in...a more definitely antagonistic way. Trump was nearly as divisive with some people here in Europe as he was at home in the US.  He was and is both entertaining, shocking, weird and terrifying - sometimes at the same time!   

But I'm going to respect that Trump isn't the topic here.

[firepyre]

There is a difference between apathy, and whatever it is you people seem to think is happening here.

It's a bunch of hypocrite wankers deciding how everybody should think and if you dare to disagree with their views you get shit thrown at you.

"You're stupid cause you sympathize with Trump."
"If you're against us in Ykraine, you must be supporting Putin."
"You HAVE to pay more for your electricity. It's the price we must all pay for peace in Ukraine."
"You HAVE to take a knee against racism and if you don't, you are a racist."

You are being baited to prove a point. Please note the quotation marks. Call off the damn lynch mob, because the hostile response because all you're doing is further entrenching the disenfranchised.

The West isn't without it's fair share of flaws. It's time at the top of the food chain is probably close to up - China and India simply have too much sheer manpower for anyone else to be able to compete for long, really.

But the problems with politics and corruption are universal, and I don't really think any of the other powers are fantastic alternatives, and the west has at least somewhat proven an ability for many different countries to co-operate somewhat. For that reason I consider myself pro west, even though I think the western response to Ukraine was poor. Sending weapons, but refusing to commit to it ourselves, when ideology clearly indicates we should(at least if this thread is any indication) just seems half-assed. And it's not hard to see why someone might have negative sentiments about that.

[Dashenka]

I'm not sure why a Russian expatriate living in England feels so vehemently, personally affected by American presidents, myself. It's not like England had to deal with Trump's inaction on Covid (or, to play devil's mirror here, the inflationary side effects of the American Rescue).

I don't see why the country I was born in matters, technically I'm a Dutch expat, but the reason you ask is quite simple.

Superpowers have a lot of control on the world. When a superpower (Russia) invaded Ukraine, it had an effect on the entire world. When another superpower (China) monopolizes resources, that affects me as well because the price of things go up. When a superpower thought there were weapons of mass destruction in another country, it forced my country to help them. The United States claim to be the best of the superpowers. So it does affect me when that country is led by a corrupt orange ape or an incompetent old fool. For the same reason it affects me that another country led by a delusional fuckwit with a Napoleon syndrome is now murdering, torturing and raping women in Ukraine.

I wish it didn't, but here we are.


If Russia hadn't been a superpower, we wouldn't be having this conversation. If the US wouldn't have been a superpower, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So as much as I hate it, and trust me, I do, POTUS is relevant for the entire world. In a way, the orange ape a bit less because of MAGA and the old fool a lot more because he's playing on the big stage.

[Oniya]

I mean, the 'orange ape' could have at least postponed the invasion if he hadn't tried to cancel the Congressionally approved aid to Ukraine in 2019. That destabilized the situation significantly, insofar as it made it look like Ukraine didn't have support.  I also suspect that Putin timed the actual invasion to coincide with the transfer of power in the US.

When I was a kid, during Carter's administration, there was the Iran Hostage crisis.  The crisis came to an end shortly after Ron (Old Ray Gun) took over, and it's been suggested since then that the timing on the Iranian side was so that Carter wouldn't get the credit.  (There are conspiracy theories that go deeper and darker, but a casual nose-thumbing by arranging the release to be 15 minutes after the oath of office sounds about par for the course.)

With all the buddy-buddy business between Putin and Trump, the February invasion (after the dust had settled from the failed coup in DC) looks like a way to ensure that people associate Biden's presidency with Ukraine, despite the fact that we had a literal impeachment over Trump's manipulations.

[Azuresun]

So as much as I hate it, and trust me, I do, POTUS is relevant for the entire world. In a way, the orange ape a bit less because of MAGA and the old fool a lot more because he's playing on the big stage.

Trump had a huge impact on the world stage, as much by his absence as by his presence. Right this minute in the UK, we've got a ruling party which is going hard Trumpanzee in their rhetoric and divisiveness.

[GloomCookie]

To try and get this back on track and get back to Russia vs. Ukraine...

Putin has declared Martial Law in 4 regions under Russian control as reported by Reuters, CNN, et al.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-declares-martial-law-four-unilaterally-annexed-regions-ukraine-2022-10-19/

... In this regard, let me remind you that in the Donetsk People's Republic, the Luhansk People's Republic, as well in the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, martial law was in effect before joining Russia. Now we need to formalize this regime within the framework of Russian legislation. Therefore, I signed a decree on the introduction of martial law in these four subjects of the Russian Federation, so it will be immediately sent to the Federation Council.

[Dashenka]

Cherson is to see a major battle when Ukraine tries to retake it.

It could be pivotal in the war if they reclaim it, which might be why the Russian are digging in.

If Cherson is liberated, the Russians will see this as a major catastrophe. Not only have they lost a very big and important city, they also lost the gateway to Crimea.

It would lift morale of Ukraine even more and deflate the Russian morale.

Of course it also means that more pressure builds on Putin and only the man himself knows what comes next.


At the same time, Ukraine is also sending troops to fortify the Belarussian border. Now this to me sounds like foreign (UK or US) intel. I'm no expert on war but could the Russians digging in around Cherson be to fool the Ukrainians into thinking that's where they will strike? Only to attack from the north again? Or are we going to see city under siege and then an open war in the North?



Ukraine also asked the people who fled the country not to return until April due to the massive power issues they face now that the Russians have destroyed most of the infrastructure. So where cities like Lviv and Odesa were relatively unscathed so far, they now suffer from power outages as well. The 'funny' thing is that while all of this is meant to destroy the morale, it only lifts it and strengthens the resolve of an already pretty resolved nation.

Everything Putin seems to do to break the spirit of the Ukrainians, strengthens them and in fact only breaks the Russians as more and more people start to see the real war and not the propaganda.

[Vekseid]

I think Kherson city will be retaken before the war enters its second year. There will come a point where Ukrainian military forces are too close and partisan activity will hopefully be able to tear them apart from the inside.

That said, Winter is coming and Russian forces are very poorly prepared for it. Even a mild winter is going to be agonizing to fight through.

[TheGlyphstone]

That said, Winter is coming and Russian forces are very poorly prepared for it. Even a mild winter is going to be agonizing to fight through.

Well if that isn't irony, I don't know what is.

[Dashenka]

I hope so. Just a little worried about Putin's reaction if that happens.


He claims the mobilisation is now ended and that 300k people are drafted.

[TheGlyphstone]

A bit of a lighthearted diversion, but this seemed like the best place to share a very weird video I'd never seen before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-wFKNy0MZQ&t=199s

[Lustful Bride]

Latest update. The Ukranians have supposedly used 9 UAVs to attack the Russian Black Sea Fleet while it was in port in Sevastapol.

There are conflicting reports of how much damage was done and if any ships were sunk. But there is a lot of black smoke rising into the sky.

https://twitter.com/mattia_n/status/1586302169531420672

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1586269146693926912?s=20&t=M8FDrQMHg45NK09-Tdkg_A

[GloomCookie]

Russia will claim tis but a scratch, and that any ships that actually sunk were either civilian ships because the Ukraine terrorists hate civilians or were in the process of being scuttled anyway and this means nothing.

[TheGlyphstone]

Why is anyone paying attention to what the Russians say, though?

[Dashenka]

Because the grain supply has come to a halt again.

[Chulanowa]

History is repeating itself right now. Ukraine is the modern-day Botswana that is winning against Russia who fills the role of the Ottoman Empire. When last I looked, Ukraine was winning this war despite everything including the recent drone attacks.

I... I don't think I've ever seen an "Ernest Scared Stupid" reference in regards to this conflict before.

Nothing more to say, just that I'm impressed

[gaggedLouise]

I... I don't think I've ever seen an "Ernest Scared Stupid" reference in regards to this conflict before.

Nothing more to say, just that I'm impressed

I'm wondering if Botswana was a strange alias for Greece in the post you quoted? Or for the Arab leaders at the time of Lawrence (though actually, Lawrence was betting on the wrong Sheikh - he failed to see that the future leader was Ibn Saud)? Or am I missing something here?