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Author Topic: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve  (Read 12191 times)

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Offline consortium11

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2009, 10:46:46 PM »
While the peanutbutter theory is a bit....  well I don't know what you'd call it...  it does make a valid point.  All life on earth has come from either sexual or asexual reproduction.  While climates and conditions change over time, it isn't that much different than when life first appeared (we think), so why isn't more life spontaneously appearing left and right?

So how were the first signs of life created?  The cold hard fact is that since all that was around was dirt, water, and single celled organisms if the evolution theory is correct, nothing was recorded and there is no way of knowing for sure. 

Arguing about religions is pointless because there is no way to prove God doesn't exist.  Sure, science has proven many things and made many discoveries, but maybe God set it up that way and we just figured it out.  It is impossible to prove one way or another.

I'm a firm believer in going with what works for you.  We are all shaped by our experiences.  I know I have a soul because I can feel it.  I know ghosts exist because I've had many experiences with that as well; unless there's a scientific theory to explain why objects at rest would suddenly fly across a room at me that I'm not aware of....

Which all falls down at the very first hurdle when they use the term "evolutionist".

The Abiogenesis/Creationism debate is a very very very different debate from the Evolution/Creationism one... but it's a point that seems to fly over the head of a lot of people involved.

Offline Oniya

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #126 on: June 14, 2009, 10:50:15 PM »
Everyone knows aliens just put those there to confuse us. Much like the duck-billed platypus (which is strange that they call it the duck-billed platypus because I've never even seen a regular platypus, but I digress.)

http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/trees/beetles/platypus.htm  It's a little known fact that the name had already been given out when George Shaw tried to assign it to the oviparous mammal, which is scientifically known as Ornithorhynchus anatinus.

So now you've seen at least the back end of a 'regular' platypus.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #127 on: June 14, 2009, 10:55:17 PM »
That's painting it rather broadly because that isn't even technically natural selection that's husbandry, and I would like to see a little less antibiotic the last thing we need are more super bugs. Evolution doesn't really have a practical application, that's like saying art to someone and expecting the Mona Lisa. (See how I tied the art thing back in, damn those speech classes paid off. XD)

Selective breeding is an aspect of natural selection.  Husbandry is merely the application of that aspect of natural selection, a practical application to breed animals that fulfill certain roles in our society.  Also, the understanding of evolution has contributed to doctors prescribing antibiotics less as we now know that bacteria are evolving to defend themselves against those antibiotics.

Offline Gunslinger

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #128 on: June 14, 2009, 11:25:10 PM »
It takes a lot of time to understand even small parts of evolution. It just made my head hurt of questions that people brought up on this topic. If you can put aside the religious zeal of anti evolution, and read some material about it, you will find out some simple facts. The breakthroughs in biology and medicine would be impossible without the theory of evolution and research that goes in to the theory.

Have a read sometime:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

Offline RubySlippers

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2009, 09:50:58 AM »
Does all this matter your average citizen doesn't NEED evolution lets look at this at a simple level. If your a typical worker in say a store selling goods do you need to know much about evolution?


Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #130 on: June 15, 2009, 09:52:46 AM »
You need to know why you take all your antibiotics and understand when your doctor describes hereditary problems.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #131 on: June 15, 2009, 10:02:14 AM »
Not at the macroevolutionary level for anitbiotics I just care they make me better and I don't create them a tiny number of people do. For hereditary problems I just need to know if I have a baby their might be a problem because of some problem. That is microevoulution which Creationists accept its similar to animal breeding and what your talking about here limited understanding.

I'm not arguing against Evolution just your average person has no major need for knowledge of it or to even accept it as true as far as the full implications of the theory, micro and macro evolution.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 10:03:23 AM by RubySlippers »

Offline Oniya

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #132 on: June 15, 2009, 10:16:54 AM »
for anitbiotics I just care they make me better and I don't create them a tiny number of people do.

Actually, this is a good example of why the average person should know about - at the very least, natural selection.   The reason that there are all the new antibiotic-resistant strains running around (MRSA is the one with the most press) is because Joe Average gets a staph infection, takes about half to three-quarters of his antibiotics, feels better and stops.  Maybe he figures he'll save the methicillin for when he has a different infection and save on prescription costs.  He feels better, so he doesn't go to that follow-up appointment and have his lab-work done - why spend all that money on the doctor when you feel fine?

What he doesn't know is he's only killed off most of the staph bacteria.  The rest have a certain level of resistance.  They breed, passing on that resistance.  Joe Average gets sick again from the new, stronger generation.  Lather, rinse, repeat, and after a few go-rounds, you end up with an evolved strain of bacteria that thumbs its figurative nose at doctors while sipping methicillin cocktails.

If the average person understands this process, they understand why it's important to take all the antibiotics and go to the followup visits to make sure the infection is wiped out.  Otherwise, they might be tempted to save a few bucks now and end up paying a lot more later - as well as create a public health hazard. 

Offline RubySlippers

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #133 on: June 15, 2009, 01:21:09 PM »
The doctors tell you to take all the medication, they do that for a reason. So the doctor should be faulted for not having a staff person call after a few days to make sure they know that. I wouldn't blame evolutionary theory that is bad medical care not informing the person. Then having say a nurse do a follow up.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #134 on: June 15, 2009, 05:12:17 PM »
And if a person has no concept of why they should take all of the medication, then they won’t.  People would take antibiotics till they felt better and then simply stash the rest for another time.  That just makes good sense really since..hey I bought all these pills and now I feel  better so save them in case I get sick.  Except, with an understanding of evolution, they will know that these pills might not work next time because the bacteria are adapting to the medication.

Also you are making the assumption that the problem is people forgetting to take their medication, which I’m willing to bet they didn’t forget to do when they felt sick.

Offline Trieste

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #135 on: June 15, 2009, 05:38:19 PM »
The doctors tell you to take all the medication, they do that for a reason. So the doctor should be faulted for not having a staff person call after a few days to make sure they know that. I wouldn't blame evolutionary theory that is bad medical care not informing the person. Then having say a nurse do a follow up.

It's the doctor's fault that you don't take the meds they give you to make you feel better? There is a reason they put "take one by mouth twice daily for ten days" on antibiotics, as opposed to something like "take one by mouth every four hours or as needed for pain" on painkillers. The doctor should not have to hunt you down to make sure you took your little pillsy-willsies, and he should not have to prod you into going to your follow-up. It's your health; it's your responsibility.

For someone who argues against nanny government, you sure want an awful lot of oversight. You're going to have to be a lot more careful with contradictions like that if you still intend to run for public office.

It takes a lot of time to understand even small parts of evolution. It just made my head hurt of questions that people brought up on this topic. If you can put aside the religious zeal of anti evolution, and read some material about it, you will find out some simple facts. The breakthroughs in biology and medicine would be impossible without the theory of evolution and research that goes in to the theory.

Have a read sometime:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

Thank you for this link; I found it really interesting.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #136 on: June 15, 2009, 08:58:30 PM »
I would call it a reminder, my doctor always drops me an e-mail to see how I'm doing under a course of treatment its doing her job. And this is not the government doing this its a service from my medical primary care provider who coordinates my care with all my doctors. So its important they stay informed and see if I have any problems.

Offline Serephino

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #137 on: June 15, 2009, 09:54:25 PM »
Likewise there's just no way to prove God exists at all, at least not in any of his commonly accepted forms.

I find myself largely agreeing with how the late Dr. Carl Sagan looked at it. In essence, even Sagan, described by some as a staunch atheist, said he'd love to believe there's an omniscient and caring father figure god out there as religions like to portray god, looking out after us all, but there's just zero evidence for it.

Similar questions have arisen in my family regarding my aunt's terminal cancer. Some will argue about the notion that it's simply 'someone's time to go'. But my other aunt, the one who runs around here in the land of Jesus fish on the back of SUV's with her retorting Darwin fish with legs said on the topic- shit happens.

When the universe does things we can't deal with and can't comprehend, some of us want to find comfort in describing it as 'magic' a.k.a., the result of a divine will. By making a person's illness or death part of some great cosmic scheme, some of us derive a mental foundation on which to operate. It somehow makes the loss of a loved one more meaningful.

Believe you me, now going through a second experience of watching cancer grind down a family member, I do understand this fundamental human need to take solace in something during trying times.


But at least as important, I am concerned with this playing away of the truth as a result. I have no wish to knowingly live in an imaginary bubble, even if it is a prettier place.

Well, there are things science can't explain.  They can look at a living cell and they have no idea how or why it's alive.  There is an energy in living creatures science just cannot pinpoint or explain no matter how much they try.

That might not be concrete proof God exists, but it is proof that there is more out there other than cut and dried laws of science.

Offline Serephino

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #138 on: June 15, 2009, 09:58:44 PM »
Not at the macroevolutionary level for anitbiotics I just care they make me better and I don't create them a tiny number of people do. For hereditary problems I just need to know if I have a baby their might be a problem because of some problem. That is microevoulution which Creationists accept its similar to animal breeding and what your talking about here limited understanding.

I'm not arguing against Evolution just your average person has no major need for knowledge of it or to even accept it as true as far as the full implications of the theory, micro and macro evolution.

I'd say if the average person was more educated we'd have less idiots running around.  Knowledge is power.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #139 on: June 16, 2009, 04:09:54 PM »
Well, there are things science can't explain.  They can look at a living cell and they have no idea how or why it's alive.  There is an energy in living creatures science just cannot pinpoint or explain no matter how much they try.

That might not be concrete proof God exists, but it is proof that there is more out there other than cut and dried laws of science.

Not necessarily. This is assuming there exists permanently inexplicable portions of the universe that we can never tally up, but I disagree. Given enough time, I believe we’ll figure it all out. Once we’re at a exponential rate for the sum knowledge of the species, and I think we’re close or at that already, it’s only a matter of time.

And this is a obvious direction to take here. We can look at the cell and say the DNA in the nucleus is writing all the instructions for the cell, the mitochondria are generating the energy for the system, etc.

We can explain how all the base function work that keep the cell alive and moving…but what makes it GO?

The same can be said of large-scale organisms such as ourselves…what actually makes us go?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vital_force

Vitalism

‘a doctrine that the functions of a living organism are due to a vital principle distinct from biochemical reactions’

‘a doctrine that the processes of life are not explicable by the laws of physics and chemistry alone and that life is in some part self-determining’


Perhaps this does not mean something that is excluded from scientific scrutiny or explanation, but perhaps this is a whole new field within science that we have yet to tap. Right now it’s more metaphysics than anything, but just because we can’t explain it yet doesn’t mean we won’t be able to explain it at all.

And just because we can’t explain it yet doesn’t automatically make it god. I believe it was scientist Richard Dawkins that said doing just that; passing off the unexplainable as god and therefore unknowable to us, is the equivalent of throwing in the towel.

Offline Caehlim

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #140 on: June 17, 2009, 02:14:29 PM »
Well, there are things science can't explain.  They can look at a living cell and they have no idea how or why it's alive.  There is an energy in living creatures science just cannot pinpoint or explain no matter how much they try.

Where'd you get that idea?

Long story short a living cell is alive because of proteins which are formed thanks to the self-replicating chemical nature of DNA.

RNA Polymerase creates mRNA and tRNA from the DNA within the nucleus. Ribosomes use mRNA and tRNA to assemble amino acids into polypeptide chains and thus make proteins. Ribosomes found within the Cytosol produce proteins used within the cell, while Ribosomes in the rough endoplasmic reticulum produce proteins designed to leave the cell or facilitate the transition of materials between the inside and outside of the cell in a controlled fashion.

These proteins engage in a variety of chemical reactions that maintain what you would call the life of the cell. Were these reactions to cease, the cell would be dead.

Lifeforms contain all 8 forms of energy; kinetic, potential, thermal, sound, light, elastic and electromagnetic. Some of these energies more than others.

However the concept of 'Vital Essence' or any form of special energy responsible for differentiation of living from non-living matter, dates to about the era of Phlogiston and the Universal Aether and is no more accurate than either.

Offline Trieste

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #141 on: June 17, 2009, 02:17:00 PM »
I could not have said it better myself. Bravissimo, Caehlim.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #142 on: June 17, 2009, 02:17:56 PM »
Where'd you get that idea?

Long story short a living cell is alive because of proteins which are formed thanks to the self-replicating chemical nature of DNA.

RNA Polymerase creates mRNA and tRNA from the DNA within the nucleus. Ribosomes use mRNA and tRNA to assemble amino acids into polypeptide chains and thus make proteins. Ribosomes found within the Cytosol produce proteins used within the cell, while Ribosomes in the rough endoplasmic reticulum produce proteins designed to leave the cell or facilitate the transition of materials between the inside and outside of the cell in a controlled fashion.

These proteins engage in a variety of chemical reactions that maintain what you would call the life of the cell. Were these reactions to cease, the cell would be dead.

Lifeforms contain all 8 forms of energy; kinetic, potential, thermal, sound, light, elastic and electromagnetic. Some of these energies more than others.

However the concept of 'Vital Essence' or any form of special energy responsible for differentiation of living from non-living matter, dates to about the era of Phlogiston and the Universal Aether and is no more accurate than either.
Better one, what's that white light people sometimes see when they are dying?

Offline Caehlim

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #143 on: June 17, 2009, 02:25:17 PM »
Better one, what's that white light people sometimes see when they are dying?

A side effect of the process called Anoxia (or lack of oxygen). Basically it's a natural reaction to the cells in your brain choking to death once the air is cut off. The chemical reactions fail in ways which produce various brain glitches. Also partly from the Pineal gland releasing the hallucinogen DMT into the brain.

Near Death Experiences are experienced in an identical fashion within centrifuge machines for training jet pilots and astronauts, for purely biological reasons.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #144 on: June 17, 2009, 02:42:22 PM »
A side effect of the process called Anoxia (or lack of oxygen). Basically it's a natural reaction to the cells in your brain choking to death once the air is cut off. The chemical reactions fail in ways which produce various brain glitches. Also partly from the Pineal gland releasing the hallucinogen DMT into the brain.

Near Death Experiences are experienced in an identical fashion within centrifuge machines for training jet pilots and astronauts, for purely biological reasons.
One theory. There's still no conclusive proof.

Offline Caehlim

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #145 on: June 17, 2009, 02:51:23 PM »
One theory. There's still no conclusive proof.

Agreed. However there is more proof for this theory than any other competing theory so I am happy to consider this as the most likely explanation until further information comes to light.

YMMV.

(Besides NDEs makes no sense from a religious perspective. Why would an infallible God not realize that people were going to be revived and put on the "welcome to heaven" light show early? Why wouldn't God communicate with people whenever he damn well feels like it, rather than waiting for some symbolic 'near death' moment to share universal truth? Even if I were a christian I wouldn't associate NDEs with religious experience).

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #146 on: June 17, 2009, 02:58:50 PM »
Agreed. However there is more proof for this theory than any other competing theory so I am happy to consider this as the most likely explanation until further information comes to light.

YMMV.

(Besides NDEs makes no sense from a religious perspective. Why would an infallible God not realize that people were going to be revived and put on the "welcome to heaven" light show early? Why wouldn't God communicate with people whenever he damn well feels like it, rather than waiting for some symbolic 'near death' moment to share universal truth? Even if I were a christian I wouldn't associate NDEs with religious experience).
You assume it's a mistake. I think it's all about opportunity really. Still there are plenty of answers we don't know or even have a guess for. Is there something on the other side of a black hole? Where is the exact center of the universe? 

Offline Oniya

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #147 on: June 17, 2009, 03:01:40 PM »
To be fair, many of the NDEs I've read about include the message 'it's not your time yet' or some variant. 

Of course, as Goedel's incompleteness theorems and the Agrippa Trilemma put forth, there will always be something that is unprovable, if only because every source used for rationalizing something will, in itself, need to be rationalized.

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #148 on: June 17, 2009, 03:05:27 PM »
To be fair, many of the NDEs I've read about include the message 'it's not your time yet' or some variant. 

Of course, as Goedel's incompleteness theorems and the Agrippa Trilemma put forth, there will always be something that is unprovable, if only because every source used for rationalizing something will, in itself, need to be rationalized.
Well it's like I put forth with the order of operations thing.

Parentheses, exponents, multiply, divide, add, subtract from the left to the right. Why is it like that? Does physics demand this, no. It was arbitrarily decided by some match committee and as such requires a lot of faith that you ain't doin' it wrong.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #149 on: June 17, 2009, 03:07:20 PM »
Where'd you get that idea?

Long story short a living cell is alive because of proteins which are formed thanks to the self-replicating chemical nature of DNA.

RNA Polymerase creates mRNA and tRNA from the DNA within the nucleus. Ribosomes use mRNA and tRNA to assemble amino acids into polypeptide chains and thus make proteins. Ribosomes found within the Cytosol produce proteins used within the cell, while Ribosomes in the rough endoplasmic reticulum produce proteins designed to leave the cell or facilitate the transition of materials between the inside and outside of the cell in a controlled fashion.

These proteins engage in a variety of chemical reactions that maintain what you would call the life of the cell. Were these reactions to cease, the cell would be dead.

Lifeforms contain all 8 forms of energy; kinetic, potential, thermal, sound, light, elastic and electromagnetic. Some of these energies more than others.

However the concept of 'Vital Essence' or any form of special energy responsible for differentiation of living from non-living matter, dates to about the era of Phlogiston and the Universal Aether and is no more accurate than either.

Nice textbook post, and it explains the mechanics of life, but not what was being discussed above.

What I think we’re talking about is the life force, the soul, whatever you want to call it, and it massively predates the phlogiston and the luminiferous aether, existing in the beliefs of most civilizations and culture over recorded time.


When you factor in those cases where someone dies despite their health being otherwise, or a case where the doctors say a patient is terminal and a lost cause, yet they pull through, something is missing.

Either those textbooks on the mechanics of biology are missing crucial lines, or there’s something more to life than we can currently perceive and quantify.

Factor in some of the cutting edge theories involving consciousness and cosmology, and there are hints that what we observe is linked to us. Lab experiments prove that results DO differ on whether anyone’s observing or not. There’s still a grand mystery here that needs unfolding…it’s more than a question of what life is, it comes down to what existence itself is.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 03:08:59 PM by The Overlord »