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Author Topic: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve  (Read 12185 times)

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Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #75 on: March 07, 2009, 08:15:39 PM »
Surely something that is by definition perfect has no need to change? I don't think its possible to become more perfect that perfect already is.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #76 on: March 07, 2009, 09:02:59 PM »
Surely something that is by definition perfect has no need to change? I don't think its possible to become more perfect that perfect already is.
But what is perfect never remains so. Thus the need to become more perfect. At a point God might have been imperfect. He attains and maintains.


Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #77 on: March 07, 2009, 09:40:36 PM »
I believe that's a potential flaw in the argument; we're assuming god is perfect, and I am making no such assumptions, based on what we see around us.

The universe is highly orderly, nature is extremely efficient, but they're not perfect.

We're making the assumption that god is perfect, therefore the universe should be.

I say, maybe god isn't perfect. If he's not prefect he can't make perfection.

Or perhaps he is perfect but simply elected not to make the universe perfect. He could have made us perfect too then, and I know there's the whole argument on free will and final judgement...yada yada, but thing is we have no possible way to know if any of that's true. We can only chose to believe it or not.


But I ask you all; being as we are not perfect and haven't really seen it, how do we really know what perfect is? Would we know perfection if we saw it? Don't answer too quickly...the answer might be trickier than you think.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #78 on: March 07, 2009, 10:12:36 PM »
Well that's why I believe Hell is more than fire and brimstone. Maybe hell is seeing God in his perfect glory and then being banished from it for all eternity. That would seem pretty hellish by anyone's standards.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2009, 03:24:41 AM »
Well that's why I believe Hell is more than fire and brimstone. Maybe hell is seeing God in his perfect glory and then being banished from it for all eternity. That would seem pretty hellish by anyone's standards.

Plausible. I no more go for the fire & brimstone description of hell than I do the clouds & harps depiction of heaven. It all may have gone far to win the masses over in the Medieval world...but that was nearly a thousand years ago.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2009, 07:03:10 AM »
But what is perfect never remains so. Thus the need to become more perfect. At a point God might have been imperfect. He attains and maintains.

I thought one part of the definition or character of the christian god was the he was perfect? It seems to be so from the ones I see posting elsewhere.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2009, 07:22:23 AM »
I thought one part of the definition or character of the christian god was the he was perfect? It seems to be so from the ones I see posting elsewhere.

Which I'd take as an opinion and not a learned fact.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2009, 07:37:10 AM »
When you're talking about religion, its all opinions really :)

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2009, 07:38:42 AM »
When you're talking about religion, its all opinions really :)

True enough.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2009, 08:07:35 AM »
Plausible. I no more go for the fire & brimstone description of hell than I do the clouds & harps depiction of heaven. It all may have gone far to win the masses over in the Medieval world...but that was nearly a thousand years ago.
Well again it's spoon feeding. How do you tell someone that this thing is so horrible unless you compare it to being burned alive for all eternity, and the opposite of that. How do you tell someone something is so great unless you can compare it to golden streets and gates made of a single large pearl?

The point behind God perfection is a matter of belief, of course the majority of the universe is belief, arguably all of it. Are we so sure of our existence? So the belief in an all-knowing, benevolent, perfect being is as comforting to some people as cold, hard science, but it's still all belief.

"To be is to do." Descartes
"To do is to be." Aristotle 
"Shoo be do be do." Sinatra

Banking on the third there for sure. The point is you have to believe in what's right because at the end of the day... God only knows.

Offline ILoveDetailedRP420

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2009, 02:27:27 PM »
I try to reconcile the two perspectives with this:  Evolution is so beautifully engineered, so utterly perfect that it is incredibly unlikely to me that it all just fell into place randomly.  Therefore, I believe that God is the mechanism behind evolution, and he's looking at our debate and going "Seriously, guys... what's wrong with you?"

Lol, thank you for saying that. This is exactly how I feel. I think most christians believe in evolution. I mean you seriously think 63% of America refuses to believe in a theory so proven as evolution. I know athiests like to make fun of Christians, but stereotyping every Christian to be a creationist (believing the earth was created 6000 years ago) is a very biased opinion to me. Sorta like the conservative talking heads and Fox news portray every democrat as a bleeding heart tax and spend liberal. I mean by saying all Christians are creationists your saying 63% of all Americans don't believe that dinosaurs existed. At most 2-3% of American's are creationist, and I hope that is a little high; I mean obviously the universe is billions of years old.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2009, 03:23:59 PM »
Lol, thank you for saying that. This is exactly how I feel. I think most christians believe in evolution. I mean you seriously think 63% of America refuses to believe in a theory so proven as evolution. I know athiests like to make fun of Christians, but stereotyping every Christian to be a creationist (believing the earth was created 6000 years ago) is a very biased opinion to me. Sorta like the conservative talking heads and Fox news portray every democrat as a bleeding heart tax and spend liberal. I mean by saying all Christians are creationists your saying 63% of all Americans don't believe that dinosaurs existed. At most 2-3% of American's are creationist, and I hope that is a little high; I mean obviously the universe is billions of years old.
In the grand scheme of things the age of the universe is much like the age of a woman, indeterminable without asking and you know there's know point in doing so. ;D

Offline tesseractive

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2009, 06:22:54 PM »
A friend I used to know was a creationist. Smart guy, too, and really nice -- the kind of person who will go way out of his way to help you move when he doesn't even know you very well.

Anyway, he happily acknowledged all the evidence, but believed that the Earth was created 6,000 years ago -- and that God had created the Earth with all those fossils and everything already in place. It's not that he didn't understand science, it was that he really, really believed the Bible was true. He believed it so strongly that he felt he had to find the best explanation he could that was still compatible with what he believed.

Christian fundamentalists get a bad rap, but the ones I've actually met have invariably been people trying to take care of their families and live right as best they can based on their teachings, and I can't find fault with that regardless of someone's political views.

Offline Oniya

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2009, 10:40:26 PM »
In the grand scheme of things the age of the universe is much like the age of a woman, indeterminable without asking and you know there's know point in doing so. ;D

*Adds to quote file*

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2009, 11:21:03 PM »
*Adds to quote file*
Yay I'm quoted. *Busts out the champagne*

Offline Serephino

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #90 on: May 01, 2009, 12:12:19 AM »
I also believe in both.  I think God created everything, and then tweaked a little here and there every so often.  Honestly, what are the odds of life actually coming into existence and cells coming together to create a living organism?  Even scientists say that there is an energy coming from living tissue that they can't explain.  They can't explain how or why living cells are alive, so there is something out there.

And honestly, what would life be like if everything were perfect?  Has anyone seen the movie Stepford Wives?  If I moved into a town like that I'd run away screaming.  If you didn't make mistakes how would you learn?

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #91 on: May 01, 2009, 08:09:24 AM »
but believed that the Earth was created 6,000 years ago -- and that God had created the Earth with all those fossils and everything already in place.

I am immediately compelled to ask why. Within the set of rules placed on nature, god made the fossils appear far older than they really are, and one must ask, to what end? Just to screw with us?

That's the thing that bothers me about the ones that just can't get themselves to question dogma no matter what. The evidence is right there in front of your face, should you choose to look at it. Proper empirical method is to shape your understanding off the observations, not shape the observations to somehow fit what you believe is true.


If one can go so far that god created evidence in paleontology and archeology to appear older than it is just because, it's just as easy, if not easier, to doubt the very existence or definition of the said god that did it. It's a vicious little circle with those folks.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #92 on: May 01, 2009, 08:23:31 AM »
To me science is just another religion with more of a practical application in day-to-day life. It tells people what to think and how to act and says it's correct. So what's the difference? I've been looking for a book but have yet to find it. Science is a Sacred Cow.

Offline Oniya

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Offline Zakharra

Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2009, 08:36:00 AM »
 Science is provable, and repeatable, under specific therums and hypotenuses, to either be disproven or stand as proven theory (scientific theory which is as proven as we can get at this moment, and not conventional theory which is essentually a guess). Science is based off of observed fact, not guesses from a book that has been rewritten numerous times and suffered from every translation.

 That being said, there are people who use it like a religion and a stick to beat people with.

Offline Oniya

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2009, 08:48:02 AM »
Saying this as one who trusts science - with any science, even math, there are certain facts that simply cannot be proved, and must be taken 'on faith' in a manner of speaking.  For example, given a line AB and a point C not on the line, you can draw exactly one line parallel to AB through C.

There are geometries that don't accept this, and at the time they were discovered, they were considered almost heretical.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2009, 09:11:48 AM »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2009, 09:16:24 AM »
Science is provable, and repeatable, under specific therums and hypotenuses, to either be disproven or stand as proven theory (scientific theory which is as proven as we can get at this moment, and not conventional theory which is essentually a guess). Science is based off of observed fact, not guesses from a book that has been rewritten numerous times and suffered from every translation.

 That being said, there are people who use it like a religion and a stick to beat people with.
Science isn't even certain gravity is real. Eisenstein proved his theory about the whole space warp thingy (Come on I'm not an astrophysicist) The light bends around an eclipse, and even Veks posted that thing about the curved laser? So who's right? The staunch in the the scientific congregation will say Newton the protestant will say Eisenstein. The parallels are scary.   

Offline Oniya

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2009, 09:23:22 AM »
I'd try a collegiate library.  It looks like it might have been a textbook at one time.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: 63% of Americans Refuse to Evolve
« Reply #99 on: May 01, 2009, 09:26:21 AM »
I'd try a collegiate library.  It looks like it might have been a textbook at one time.
Maybe I'll just get a job this summer and buy it off Amazon. I'm a little too busy to peruse too. ^w^;