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Author Topic: Jesus Camp  (Read 5782 times)

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Offline Nessy

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2009, 03:37:59 PM »
I believe Sarah Palin is a Pentacostalist. As a matter of fact, I remember reading that her church has been linked to Dominionists and Joel's Army, a radicalized sect of Christianity that believes that we are living in the end times, and the time for them to rise up and take over the governments of the world by force and to force everyone to either convert to thier brand of Christianity or die is almost upon us. Apparently, they are uncertain if they they're supposed to be given thier Jehovah granted super powers before or after they rise up against the evil world.

Dominionism
Joel's Army

I'm all for disliking Sarah Palin, but this sounds over-the-top even for her. Various media try to link politicians, celebreties, anyone in the lime light to a lot of things, and they'll use the loosest connection they can find. Remember the whole Ayers thing. I am not going to stoop to their level, and it's not necessary. She comes off very poorly to people who don't share her belief's as it is. And by share her belief's, I don't just mean people who aren't Christian's, I am referring to the entire intolerant package.

Offline Serephino

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2009, 09:44:37 PM »
I saw clips of that, and it was disturbing to say the least.  They were telling kids to be prepared to give their lives for God!  Somehow, I don't think that's what God intended.

I'm not a big fan of organized religion for this reason.  All throughout history Christians have been preaching that it's their way or burn in hell for all eternity.  I came across a bumper sticker that said; it's your hell, you burn in it; and that's pretty much how I feel.

I'm a firm believer in exposing kids to many different kinds of religions and letting them decide for themselves.  Choosing what to believe in is a personal choice and no one has the right to decide for someone else. 

I was raised Christian, but I left the church because there were a few things I didn't agree with.  I have no problem with other religions, just don't try to shove it down my throat please. 

Offline Nessy

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2009, 10:54:53 PM »
I saw clips of that, and it was disturbing to say the least.  They were telling kids to be prepared to give their lives for God!  Somehow, I don't think that's what God intended.

I'm not a big fan of organized religion for this reason.  All throughout history Christians have been preaching that it's their way or burn in hell for all eternity.  I came across a bumper sticker that said; it's your hell, you burn in it; and that's pretty much how I feel.

I'm a firm believer in exposing kids to many different kinds of religions and letting them decide for themselves.  Choosing what to believe in is a personal choice and no one has the right to decide for someone else. 

I was raised Christian, but I left the church because there were a few things I didn't agree with.  I have no problem with other religions, just don't try to shove it down my throat please.

And it is also the right of parents to expand or limit their exposure to what they think is right. The kind of choosing you are talking about is something young adults should begin to choose for themselves not children. I am all for protecting children as a society but the last thing people need are backseat parents.

Offline Serephino

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2009, 02:43:49 PM »
Not forcing a child to be a Christian is not backseat parenting.  It both annoys and saddens me to see a child be taken to Church and told if they don't follow God they're going to hell.  I hate that organized religion uses fear as a motivation.  I've never taken well to being intimidated.

I'm not saying it's wrong to take a child to church, but don't brainwash them for crying out loud.  Encourage them to ask questions, and don't get upset if they want to learn more about another religion.  Expose them to different things so that when they are a young adult they can decide for themselves.  Guiding a child and answering questions is what being a responsible parent is.

I have read so many sad stories of people who grew up in strict Christian house holds, and when they decided to follow another path they were disowned.  Why can't all religions just get along?  Hell, part of what confuses me is Christians, Jews, and Muslims all came from Abraham and follow the same God, yet they're constantly fighting with each other.... WTF....  It's just nuts!

It wouldn't hurt for parents to educate themselves either.  There are so many misconceptions floating around out there.  What you view as dangerous may not be.  A lot of Christians I've talked to hate stereotypes about the nuts like the people at Jesus Camp, but a lot seem to forget that other religious stereotypes are just as untrue. 


Offline Rhapsody

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2009, 09:21:22 PM »
It wouldn't hurt for parents to educate themselves either.  There are so many misconceptions floating around out there.  What you view as dangerous may not be.  A lot of Christians I've talked to hate stereotypes about the nuts like the people at Jesus Camp, but a lot seem to forget that other religious stereotypes are just as untrue.

I was raised Roman Catholic, right up until after my Confirmation when I was in grade 8 and I decided that maybe being an evil sinning little bastard who was forever unworthy of being in the presence of God just wasn't for me. I know that's not all the religion is about, but that's about all I took away from it, and it left me with a bad taste in my mouth.  It's the kind of old-fashioned Irish family I was raised in: I love my grandparents dearly, but I chewed my nan a new orifice when she told me that she didn't really consider me married because I chose to have a civil ceremony officiated by a justice of the peace instead of a big church wedding with all the restrictions thereof.

I consider myself an agnostic nowadays, and I'm generally tolerant towards other religions, so long as their members aren't trying to shove dogma down my throat.  And as such, I refused to have my kids baptised in the Catholic faith, even though my grandparents in particular were expecting it.  It's how I was raised, after all, so I must want my kids to go to heaven too.   But I don't feel like I have the authority to choose for them something as personal as faith.  If, when they get older and can make an informed decision that's best for their minds and souls, they choose to be Catholic, then that's fine.  I'll just ban religion from the dinner table. :P

And honestly?  It isn't the "faith" part most people take issue with. It's the way those faiths are sometimes acted upon, also known as "religion". 

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Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2009, 09:37:07 PM »
I'll just ban religion from the dinner table. :P

I was always taught that it wasn't polite to discuss religion, politics or money at the dinner table. ;) And that was from Roman Catholic parents.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2009, 09:45:59 PM »
I was always taught that it wasn't polite to discuss religion, politics or money at the dinner table. ;) And that was from Roman Catholic parents.
Don't forget sex.

Offline Serephino

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2009, 10:19:34 PM »

And honestly?  It isn't the "faith" part most people take issue with. It's the way those faiths are sometimes acted upon, also known as "religion".

The way I see it, when you're on your death bed, which is inevitable for all of us, you're going to be alone.  If you've been a good little Christian because you were told you had to, how secure are you going to be? 

One of the reasons a lot of people can't go through with suicide or are afraid of death is because they're afraid of the unknown.  They've been preached to all their lives about God, yet they're still unsure.  Someone else's faith isn't going to help you when you're facing your own mortality. 

And Rhapsody, you're not alone.  I too took from the Christian faith that we're all unworthy sinners that need to be forgiven and saved.  I said screw that.  I also think it's bullshit that you can be a rotten, lying cheating asshole all of your life but if you find Christ before you die you'll be saved and enter Heaven; but if you spend your life trying to be a good person but don't accept Christ you'll go to Hell.  That's a pill I just can't swallow. 

I'm not an Atheist though.  I still believe in God, I just don't follow mainstream Christianity.  I have faith and I'm very secure in it.  I'm not going to go stand in front of a bus or anything, and I do have a will to live, but I'm not afraid.  I did a little soul searching and came to my own conclusions rather than have someone else tell me what the truth is, and I'm happier for it. 

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Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2009, 11:33:19 PM »
Don't forget sex.

As far as they were concerned, that wasn't polite to discuss ever;D

Thankfully, they weren't the types that wouldn't sign the 'Health Ed' permission slips.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2009, 11:40:30 PM »
As far as they were concerned, that wasn't polite to discuss ever;D

Man, I wish that had been my mom.  When I hit mid-teens, she started talking to me about her sex life.  Not graphic details or anything -- I'd still be in therapy -- but because she wasn't satisfied and really didn't have anyone else to talk to about it. >.<

Offline Nessy

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2009, 03:20:21 AM »
Not forcing a child to be a Christian is not backseat parenting.  It both annoys and saddens me to see a child be taken to Church and told if they don't follow God they're going to hell.  I hate that organized religion uses fear as a motivation.  I've never taken well to being intimidated.

Well you show me the "perfect" way to raise a child, and I will show you an example of a murderer that came from that type of family. There is no perfect way to raise a child, and if a parent wants to take a child to church, let them.It is their child, not ours. A lot of churches do not threaten children with hell. Your experience is yours and I certainly won't question it but it saddens and annoys me when others think their parenting skills are so great they should have the power to dicated how other parents raise their kids. When the child begins to become an adult, they have a choice and they think for themselves. If at that point the parents force them into a religion, then society might have reason for concern and raise a voice.

edit: I just wanted to add, I understand the concern. It's a legitmate concern after all, but society isn't going to be the one that is pulling its hair out when things go south with a child. I've seen friends grow up in very religious households do well and go south, and I've seen friends who were raised in households without it and have the same result. Parenting is not a cookie cutter approach, and I just don't think I have any right to tell someone how to raise their kid when I am not going to be the one dealing with much of the consequence or the guilt, or the pride or anything else a parent feels watching their, keyword their here, child grow.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 04:52:14 AM by Nessy »

Offline Serephino

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2009, 12:47:22 PM »
If you would have paid attention at all I said I'm not against a parent taking a child to church, but rather a parent making a child think they must follow that religion or else.  I never said I have perfect parenting skills, nor am I trying to dictate what parents do.  I've been giving my opinions along with everyone else.  Please stop putting words in my mouth. 

Offline Nessy

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2009, 03:08:10 PM »
If you would have paid attention at all I said I'm not against a parent taking a child to church, but rather a parent making a child think they must follow that religion or else.  I never said I have perfect parenting skills, nor am I trying to dictate what parents do.  I've been giving my opinions along with everyone else.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.

No need to get all defensive, and you don't get to control how I interrupt what you wrote. You are welcome to clairfy your position but when you do it in the manner you are, I am not likely going to listen. You talked about children being forced to be christian. Taking a child to church is certainly an attempt to lead them into the christian faith. You also said it "annoys and saddens you to see a child be taken to Church" which implies you don't think children should be taken to church. Those are choices a parent makes, and if you think they are not okay, then that implies you think that whatever brand of parenting you support most is the only good one. I am simply stating there is no perfect parenting manual you can find to make 100% sure a child turns out to be a boon to society instead of a problem. And if someone else dictates how children are raised, other than their parents, they aren't going to be the one devastated when the child kills themselves their senior year in high school, or shoots a fellow student as a young adult, or wraps their car around a telephone pole in the middle of the night in a drunken stupor. Religion isn't the enemy, and it isn't necessarily the answer. Parenting is a set of choices and ideas. These crazy Jesus camp things are certainly alarming but they're less about religion and more about control if you actually pay attention to what is going on there.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 03:15:45 PM by Nessy »

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Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2009, 07:58:40 PM »
Please read - this is a debate forum, not a flame forum.

Let's not make it so that the staff gets ticked at us, guys.  I think we can all agree that there are some serious nut-jobs out there, as well as a lot of good people of every faith, and none of us here want to raise our children to be little sociopaths.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2009, 08:16:39 PM »
The way I see it, when you're on your death bed, which is inevitable for all of us, you're going to be alone.  If you've been a good little Christian because you were told you had to, how secure are you going to be? 

One of the reasons a lot of people can't go through with suicide or are afraid of death is because they're afraid of the unknown.  They've been preached to all their lives about God, yet they're still unsure.  Someone else's faith isn't going to help you when you're facing your own mortality. 

And Rhapsody, you're not alone.  I too took from the Christian faith that we're all unworthy sinners that need to be forgiven and saved.  I said screw that.  I also think it's bullshit that you can be a rotten, lying cheating asshole all of your life but if you find Christ before you die you'll be saved and enter Heaven; but if you spend your life trying to be a good person but don't accept Christ you'll go to Hell.  That's a pill I just can't swallow. 

I'm not an Atheist though.  I still believe in God, I just don't follow mainstream Christianity.  I have faith and I'm very secure in it.  I'm not going to go stand in front of a bus or anything, and I do have a will to live, but I'm not afraid.  I did a little soul searching and came to my own conclusions rather than have someone else tell me what the truth is, and I'm happier for it.
“Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.”--Psalm 23:4

I'm not dying alone.

Offline Nessy

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2009, 10:35:50 PM »
Please read - this is a debate forum, not a flame forum.

Let's not make it so that the staff gets ticked at us, guys.  I think we can all agree that there are some serious nut-jobs out there, as well as a lot of good people of every faith, and none of us here want to raise our children to be little sociopaths.

I can agree with that.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2009, 07:08:33 AM »
Religion and politics are two topics that can deteriorate very fast. If people can keep calm, and realise that a difference of opinion is not a personal attack, then they can make for some very interesting debates.

Staff will only step in if and when needed.

Offline purpleartemis00

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2009, 05:11:42 AM »
I just made a double feature of it with "Jesus Camp" and "Religulous." I usually hate Bill Maher, but this one wasn't bad.

I have to look at places like the camp those children attended and think "Organized religion breeds whack-jobs and hypocrisy." I grew up in a situation very similar to the churches that those children attended and was disgusted at every turn. I remember reading every book about religion that I could get my hands on, searching for some religion where the followers didn't find a whole bag of crazy and wallow about in it like flea dip.

And I found nothing. For the most part, organized religion is insane. I'm not just talking about the wacky offshoots, no. Catholics (najor organized denomination of Christianity) believe that the bread and wine is actually Christ blood and body as they take communion.

Mormons believe that special underwear will keep you safe from knives and fire.

Orthodox Jews believe that the war in Jerusalem will be decided when God finds them worthy of the nation of Israel.

Muslims believe that Muhammed actually preaches peace and condemns infidels in the same book.

Hindus and Buddhists believe that a earthworm could be old aunt Mildred.

Organized religion does not value sanity as a quality in its believers.




Offline Inkidu

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Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2009, 07:06:20 AM »
I just made a double feature of it with "Jesus Camp" and "Religulous." I usually hate Bill Maher, but this one wasn't bad.

I have to look at places like the camp those children attended and think "Organized religion breeds whack-jobs and hypocrisy." I grew up in a situation very similar to the churches that those children attended and was disgusted at every turn. I remember reading every book about religion that I could get my hands on, searching for some religion where the followers didn't find a whole bag of crazy and wallow about in it like flea dip.

And I found nothing. For the most part, organized religion is insane. I'm not just talking about the wacky offshoots, no. Catholics (najor organized denomination of Christianity) believe that the bread and wine is actually Christ blood and body as they take communion.

Mormons believe that special underwear will keep you safe from knives and fire.

Orthodox Jews believe that the war in Jerusalem will be decided when God finds them worthy of the nation of Israel.

Muslims believe that Muhammed actually preaches peace and condemns infidels in the same book.

Hindus and Buddhists believe that a earthworm could be old aunt Mildred.

Organized religion does not value sanity as a quality in its believers.
A very superficial and narrow explaination.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2009, 08:38:29 AM »
A very superficial and narrow explaination.

 *sage nod* An extremely narrow view of it.

Offline purpleartemis00

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2009, 02:06:12 PM »
I think you mistake me. I did not form any opinions based on either of the two films. I merely watched them for the entertainment value, or in Jesus Camp's place the carthatic value.

My opinions are drawn from studying and reading about these many religions. I have studied the Bible (King James and a few other translations), the Torah, the Quran, the Way to End Suffering (a Buddhist text that outlines the tenants of the religion), the Bhagavad gita and the Book of Mormon.

On the whole when the facts are so very laughable, it is hard to draw a very balanced conclusion. The conclusion drawn from this many year study was that organized religion= insane. Spirituality is a whole other thing entirely and does not in even come into play with many organized religions.

I fail to see the good done by institutions that have driven people to violence against each other repeatedly. Also, magic underwear... really?

Offline Nessy

Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2009, 02:17:27 PM »
A very superficial and narrow explaination.

Well said.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2009, 02:23:22 PM »
I think you mistake me. I did not form any opinions based on either of the two films. I merely watched them for the entertainment value, or in Jesus Camp's place the carthatic value.

My opinions are drawn from studying and reading about these many religions. I have studied the Bible (King James and a few other translations), the Torah, the Quran, the Way to End Suffering (a Buddhist text that outlines the tenants of the religion), the Bhagavad gita and the Book of Mormon.

On the whole when the facts are so very laughable, it is hard to draw a very balanced conclusion. The conclusion drawn from this many year study was that organized religion= insane. Spirituality is a whole other thing entirely and does not in even come into play with many organized religions.

I fail to see the good done by institutions that have driven people to violence against each other repeatedly. Also, magic underwear... really?
From the list of things you listed off, I think you need to reread some of that.

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Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2009, 02:27:51 PM »
All generalities are false.  It also might be worthwhile to look over the sticky at the top of this forum while phrasing your arguments, for optimal effectiveness.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Jesus Camp
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2009, 02:28:45 PM »
Purple, while you may not care for religion, it is important to many people, so a little more polite phrasing won't go amiss.