Let's Talk Villains!

[Twisted Crow]

Dr. Doom, The Joker, Sephiroth, Sauron, Rita Repulsa, Darth Vader, Mr. McMahon, etc.

I'd like to talk about what villains we like, why we like them and what kept them captivating to us. These could be characters from movies, video games, (comic) books, TV shows and anything that could apply in fictional storytelling. While it could bleed into criticism (or side discussions), I would like to try to focus on character strengths as well as their weaknesses.

While this is meant to be fun and social, there is another purpose for me in picking brains here. I am thinking of writing a bit for Elliquiy specifically on 'the Villain'. So it would be more helpful (and just more interesting to read) for me if you included thoughts and thoughts rather than just name-drop favorite villains and move on. Now, this doesn't mean you need to write an elaborate essay, but at least write a bit about the traits that made them memorable to you. A few sentences, maybe a short paragraph. Just give me more than "Agent Smith from The Matrix! Favorite Villain Ever."

Seeing as I'm starting this topic. I will share one of my favorites in my next post.

[Twisted Crow]

Sarevok (The Baldur's Gate PC Video Game series)

"I will be the last! And you will go first..." -Sarevok

I will gloss over this character for those that don't play video games (or just haven't played this one, in particular).

Spikey armor with horns and teeth, fiendish eyes, can masterfully use a massive (two-handed) sword with one hand. For the cherry on top; a powerful booming voice to give you chills. It is true that you can take one look at him and tell right away from all of the nightmare fuel...

This is the obvious villain of the story (Or at least the first story, anyway.).

But there is more to him that just what's on the surface...

Sarevok schemed an elaborate national crisis, then capitalized on opportunities to seize power. After strong-arming a deft 'shadow' seat of power over an entire nation, he was able to bring the threat of war and chaos to the region. And this was all devised through weapons of fear and influence. All of this was to move toward fulfilling (what he believed was) his destined power to come. He was this armored giant of both strength and surprising cunning. I see Sarevok as a blend of Randall Flagg (Steven King's The Stand) and perhaps Darth Vader -- That is, when he was this mysterious agent of dark power in 'A New Hope' and up 'til the climax of 'Empire Strikes Back'.

Although, this character shares some of the same flaws as to the first character I compared him with... he also somewhat eludes it with a different dynamic. Due to the mysterious nature of his portrayal (and similar to Randall Flagg), he doesn't have much of a past until the protagonist's story continues with future tales (in this case, a sequel and its expansion). But what kind of redeems that flaw is that Darth Vader mystique. He's an enigma, a mysterious threat to the protagonist that isn't fully realized until time goes on. The player not only discovers who Sarevok truly is, but unravels the true nature of their protagonist, as well. As an agent of conflict that all villains should be, Sarevok cements this and later develops into something much more.

Random Trivia: Sarevok was voiced by Kevin Michael Richardson. This is the same guy that later voices Principal Lewis from American Dad. It used to be chilling when Sarevok would have that sinister chuckle, but now due to American Dad... I sometimes picture Principal Lewis during these moments and start laughing my ass off.

[Nico]

Oh, there's several on my list. ~chuckles~

Professor Moriarty, for example. Or Charles Augustus Milverton from the Sherlock books. And then there is Dr. Hannibal Lecter of course, Le Chiffre from James Bond.

What makes them so good for me? They are all humans. No superpowers, no supernaturals. Those never have been very scary or intense to me - but the moment it is a normal human being, it gets downright frightening. A character that has superpowers or can do magic and uses those to get what they want holds no allure to me, but the moment it is 'just' a human being with maybe money or influence, it's so much better for me. A vampire drinking blood? Meh, so not interesting (maybe because it is so predictable for me). A human being doing it? Oh yes, that can be quite frightening. I guess I am very much into the psychological aspect of it all.

[LongTallMiss]

Moriarty! Such an incredible villain; clever, vindictive, and like the previous poster mentioned, he's human!

I also have to say the Joker from the DC universe... another human with no superpowers. Just insanity! He's incredibly smart and ruthless. Nothing seems to faze him. His pure determination to ruin Batman is a force to be reckoned with.

[RedPhoenix]

I've always loved Dr. Doom. Played a female version in a story once, was lots of fun. :)

[midnightblack]

What makes them so good for me? They are all humans. No superpowers, no supernaturals. Those never have been very scary or intense to me - but the moment it is a normal human being, it gets downright frightening.

I like having the two mixed. Specifically, having an ordinary human with malicious intent and an unbreakable desire to win taking on nigh-impossible and morally superior odds. I guess my fascination for the idea comes from the fact that it is an inversion of what you usually get in mainstream art and entertainment. Villains are not supposed to be underpowered and neither are they allowed to win. Given some of your examples (which I didn't catch in my quote), perhaps you may be interested in an old western movie, if you haven't seen it already: Il Grande Silenzio (The Great Silence) from 1968.

Returning to the topic, I love Sarevok too. Nothing quite as charming as a man willing to drown the whole world in blood in order to have his ambitions fulfilled. I guess that a villain of similar magnitude is Archaon the Everchosen from the Warhammer Fantasy universe. I don't really know that much about the setting, but there's a bit of flavor in his story that resembles a mirrored version of the labors of Heracles from the Greek myths. He's supposed to be a zealous priest who abandoned his righteous faith, traveled to the end of the world and quested for several centuries, performing arduous tasks and surmounting the impossible odds I talked about previously, in order to earn the favor of a bunch of chaos gods and herald the apocalypse. I find the idea quite romantic, but I don't think it was that well written in the lore books.

[Nico]

I like having the two mixed. Specifically, having an ordinary human with malicious intent and an unbreakable desire to win taking on nigh-impossible and morally superior odds. I guess my fascination for the idea comes from the fact that it is an inversion of what you usually get in mainstream art and entertainment. Villains are not supposed to be underpowered and neither are they allowed to win. Given some of your examples (which I didn't catch in my quote), perhaps you may be interested in an old western movie, if you haven't seen it already: Il Grande Silenzio (The Great Silence) from 1968.

Oh that's a brilliant movie, indeed. I'm generally not a huge fan of that particular genre, but this one's really outstanding (much like 'Once upon a time in the west'). I like the fact that it's not the 'good ones' that 'win' in the end.

[Mathim]

Sephiroth was my first exposure to villains in stories from Japan. I just liked how it was such a mystery what he was and where he came from, so enigmatic. Half that time I wasn't even sure whether he was real or not. And his power level was intimidating yet unknown in its exact extent. Plus his look was so utterly badass. I think for someone just entering Middle School, that was the biggest impression that could have been made for a video game villain. And when you consider just how twisted Shinra, Inc. already was as villains, that he just shows up like a boss and impales the president on his desk (off-screen), the fact that you didn't even know what he looked like (if you avoided reading the manual in the game box) when you first heard his name, that wasn't something I saw very often. And then just the madness that consumed him and the fact that he burned down a whole town, and Cloud's 'confrontation' with him was left unknown but Cloud somehow survived it, all of that just made Sephiroth one of my favorite, most iconic villains. And that's not even having mentioned his whole manipulation game with Cloud and the others from the 'Reunion'.

[aouser626]

Bane, is Batman, but polar opposites.

[Mathim]

If by polar opposites you mean that he uses strength-enhancing drugs and Batman never would. I mean, they're very much the same as far as being at the top of the non-superpowered (at least not permanently) human game. Where there's Batman being rich and having virtually limitless resources, and Bane's proclivity for Venom, it's easy to spot the differences. Their intelligence, training, their drive, it's all pretty even, but their combat style and the type of aid they use are different. They do both have a certain sense of honor though, and Bane gave up Venom at one point because of it.

I mainly like the animated portrayals of Bane the best, not really that familiar with the comics version and hated both screen portrayals. But Bane was definitely in the top 5 (possibly top 3) favorite villains of mine from Batman: The Animated Series. And he only appeared on there twice (and once on the Superman Animated Series when there was a Batman crossover episode).

[aouser626]

"By spending the rest of my life warring on all criminals." - Batman

"By spending the rest of my life conquering all criminals." - Bane

You should see the portrayal of Bane in Batman: Arkham Origins.

[Mathim]

Voldemort was hard to really look at as a villain given how the overall attitude of the magical community was towards Muggles. I mean, the entire policy of complete and utter exclusion has nothing but an elitist vibe, so it's hardly worth anything to say one doesn't care about whether you're Pureblood when you routinely deny Muggles the means of procuring housing when it's needed, food and water, medicines and other medical treatments, and other conveniences (not as important as the rest, but still). Yeah, he killed people in cold blood, but it's no different from letting a homeless person starve and/or freeze to death when you could easily turn a brick wall into a door to a small apartment for them and turn a hot dog into a feast for them. In a way, if you look at it, everyone in Harry Potter is a villain.

[Hunter]

One of my personal favorites has always been Baltar from the original BSG series.  None of this being a dupe or misunderstood: evil and knows it.

[Mathim]

Like Frieza from Dragonball Z. Classic dictator; scarier when he's happy than when he's angry, killing subordinates at the drop of a hat, almost never gets his own hands dirty unless he absolutely has to, and an endless thirst for more power despite never having been able to be challenged by anyone his entire life. The spoiled prince who never wants to hear 'no' and whose temper tantrums are legendary. Even after he dies, he's still a bastard in the afterlife, causing trouble and never learning a damn lesson.

[RedRose]

Voldemort was hard to really look at as a villain given how the overall attitude of the magical community was towards Muggles. I mean, the entire policy of complete and utter exclusion has nothing but an elitist vibe, so it's hardly worth anything to say one doesn't care about whether you're Pureblood when you routinely deny Muggles the means of procuring housing when it's needed, food and water, medicines and other medical treatments, and other conveniences (not as important as the rest, but still). Yeah, he killed people in cold blood, but it's no different from letting a homeless person starve and/or freeze to death when you could easily turn a brick wall into a door to a small apartment for them and turn a hot dog into a feast for them. In a way, if you look at it, everyone in Harry Potter is a villain.

That's actually very interesting. I never saw things that way, but YUP.

[Egoiste]

I'm a huge fan of Tolkien's setting, and Sauron is consequently one of my favourite villains. Though the book LOTR does something interesting with him in that most villains can be beaten in a direct struggle and often in fact exist to be overcome on a personal level acting as a kind of yard-stick against whom we can measure the growth of our protagonist. Sauron’s purpose, though, is to be an unconquerable demiurge whose power surpasses the heroes in every conceivable fashion. Their greatest source of hope actually lies in the fact that they are generally, and utterly (in the case of Frodo and Sam) beneath his notice. The suggestion that Sauron’s power is ever going to be overthrown by force is so farcical that even the characters within the novel can barely imagine it within the context of an absurdist fantasy, and the thought of actual confrontation, face-to-face, with Sauron himself is literally unthinkable. The mere thought of being regarded by him, of merely being noticed by him, even at some vast distance - of being factored into his plans - engenders paroxysms of terror in those that oppose him and especially our protagonist. It is his primary fear and his primary obstacle.

I find that interesting, but the more you read the more interesting he becomes. Unlike many of Morgoth's servants he wasn't corrupted before entering Ea. He was a loyal vassal of Aule for some period. His original name bears the same root as the term Maia itself and was supposedly reserved only for the most august and splendid things. In all he appears to have been a most remarkable being. Tolkien speaks of him being of a far higher order than Olorin (later Gandalf) who was himself a Maia of some note. It is striking that after serving Morgoth for the entirety of the First Age, and for an indeterminate but certainly not insignificant period prior to that (having been corrupted at some point in the fourteen thousand year stretch prior to the arrival of Tulkas) and being his greatest and most powerful servant who was said to have had a part in all of Morgoth's evil he nevertheless retains the capacity for sincere redemption at the end of the War of Wrath. Many of Morgoth's Maiar servants appear to have more or less become irrevocably fallen the moment they threw their lot in with him, but Sauron retained the capacity for positive action - as his brief redemption and second fall show - and even full command over his form despite Morgoth's influence though he was arguably more evil than any of them. This suggests he was a very remarkable spirit. That he often seems cleverer than his former boss, and is certainly braver and far less nihilistic leads me to prefer him as a villain.

I always found both of his falls interesting and even sympathetic. In the first place I must confess I have little sympathy for, or appreciation for the Valar in general except perhaps Ulmo. At any rate Sauron (or Mairon at this time) is created with a love of order and perfection and cannot abide wasteful friction or conflict, and he comes into a world overflowing with both. Both of these facts are arranged and ensured by a creator God who must have known what their consequences would be. In this world the works of his patron, and thus his own works to the extent that he assisted are the most marred and ruined. A state the forces of good are wholly incapable of redressing for fourteen thousand years, and which they often seem to have little interest in redressing even when they do find themselves empowered to do so. That he joins Melkor does not surprise me. In the most crude terms it seems he simply wanted to get shit done, and Melkor had the power to do so, and seemed the only being capable of bringing about some kind of resolution to the current conflict which Sauron must have found appalling by his very nature. Of his second fall Tolkien states, '[He] was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all 'reformers' who want to hurry up with 'reconstruction' and 'reorganization' are wholly evil.' and there is moreover the suggestion that his own surpassing potency and greatness within Middle Earth (which had been abandoned by the powers) where he was pre-eminent both in power and knowledge played a part in things.

Interestingly enough this is a position the Istari who was left in Middle Earth were likely to find themselves in during later ages. Each is a potential fourth or fifth age Sauron. More Valarin fecklesness.

Of course by the third age he was irrevocably fallen and appeared to have no real positive motives, but it had taken a long time for him to get there. It always leaves me wondering what he might have achieved in a less troubled world. Or even if he had merely been brought back to Valinor pending the War of Wrath. That he could simply be mislaid at this point seems a damning indictment of the Valar.

At any rate I'm hugely looking forward to the new novel. The Children of Hurin was just about the coolest thing since sliced bread, and while I think Beren and Luthien are a bit boring in contrast Sauron was involved in their quest. So I’ll definitely be buying it in the hope that it provides us with some new material on him. Because Sauron euphoria 2017 is friggin' real.

[RegretNot]

I am going to put out there that one of my favorite villains of all time is Ozymandias from Watchmen.  Dubbed the "smartest man in the world" and the peak of human perfection physically he is near perfect but not quite superhuman, he is in fact what all humans can strive to be.  Starting as a good guy, a hero / superhero and never known to be a villain til he had done what he feels needs to be done.  This intelligence leads him to adopt a ends justify the means policy and he manages to outwit, outmaneuver, and even neutralize the most powerful being in the universe, Dr. Manhattan.  In the end he kills millions of New Yorkers to bring peace, to create a common enemy to end a tension he believes will end the world.  His closest allies are deceived and even counter to what we see out of most villains he doesn't monologue but has already pulled the trigger by the time others catch him.

In the end he isn't foiled by anyone but instead made to wonder if his coldly logical ways are right when Dr. Manhattan merely conjectures if what he did really ended anything or just bought time to the inevitable.  Ozymandias makes us wonder that if intelligence and logic in too much concentration severs us from what makes us human in the end that striving to be perfect doesn't somehow neuter the "soul" if you will.  This all makes him a great villain, not for his deeds or his abilities but for his capacity to make us question ourselves as he never comes off as the person you want to hate and even at the end understands his own tainting himself for a greater good in his view. 

[Egoiste]

RegretNot's mention of Ozymandias, and his avoidance of the monologing trap put me in mind of a line by another villain I'm quite fond of, and given that Sarevok has already been mentioned in this thread how can I not give this guy some props?

'No, you warrant no villain's exposition from me.' - Jon Irenicus.

Voiced by the superb David Warner Irenicus is the primary villain of the second instalment of the Baldur's Gate series. Though the cut scenes in this game were basic in the extreme and barely qualified as cut scenes even by the standards of its contemporaries the wonderful dialogue and the sheer power of Warner's amazing performance makes Irenicus a truly memorable villain. He remains a true enigma for much of the game, and while I won't give anything away for those of you who haven't played this I'll just say that the foreshadowing is fantastic, and the eventual reveal of his purpose and motivation is handled superbly.

'Once my thirst for power was everything, and now I hunger only for revenge, and I will have it.' I still remember this rather cliched line literally giving me chills when I played through this game purely on the strength of Warner's delivery.

Another villain I must give props to is The Transcendent One from Planescape: Torment. Chillingly voiced by Tony Jay. I won't speak as to what he is or his purpose as this would make for massive and unforgivable spoilers. However I think this game has the greatest story I've ever come across in any game I've played. Though the game play is terrible and truly flawed in the extreme, and like Baldur's Gate it is far from flashy the power of the writing and voice work have allowed it to stand the test of time. I would never have a reason to go back and play contemporary games like Diablo II that looked fantastic, and which were great fun to play at the time but Baldur's Gate and Planescape are as riveting to play now as they were when they first hit the shelves. Both had amazing and memorable villains, and made use of some of the best voice acting ever employed in a video game at the time they were made. The visuals may have had almost no real power, but the voice work and writing transcends such minor details, while the focus on creating a memorable story and characters have given them a timeless appeal.