The Hammonds, the Bundys, and The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge takeover

[Blythe]

So anyone else following this particular story about the conflict between the federal government, these ranchers, and a group that is looking increasingly closer to a militia group?

On top of all that, the individuals responsible who took over the refuge released a video, it looks like.

Some people feel that the Hammonds are being unfairly treated as they were just resentenced to five years in prison, but others feel that the protest done on their behalf (that the Hammonds say they did not ask for) is close to/actually is an act of terrorism.

For context, here is a better rundown of the original reasons the Hammonds were in hot water.

Thoughts?

[Lustful Bride]

So anyone else following this particular story about the conflict between the federal government, these ranchers, and a group that is looking increasingly closer to a militia group?

On top of all that, the individuals responsible who took over the refuge released a video, it looks like.

Some people feel that the Hammonds are being unfairly treated as they were just resentenced to five years in prison, but others feel that the protest done on their behalf (that the Hammonds say they did not ask for) is close to/actually is an act of terrorism.

For context, here is a better rundown of the original reasons the Hammonds were in hot water.

Thoughts?

They are a bunch of tantrum throwing inssurectionists! I hate that they are doing this! As if gun owners don't look bad enough, and then they pull this? It'd have caused so much less trouble to just take the punishment or fight it in court. Especially cause there were other ways to handle invasive crops than setting them on fire and burning 130 Acres!

Im trying very hard to remain calm but just thinking about them makes me see red.

This is the worst way to go about it and...ugh im gonna try and abstain from this otherwise id just be throwing insult after insult into this thread. But I fully believe that they are in the wrong. I just hope this doesn't turn into Waco 2.0 

[Robelwell202]

Ultimately, I never support any acts of terrorism perpetrated by anyone.  However, I don't think this comes very close to terrorism, YET.

I am a gun owner.  Let me get that out there, right now.  I own a pistol, and in short order, I look to own one or two more firearms.  Yes, I tend to lean towards the conservative side of things, but understand that I DO NOT blindly subscribe to anything, left or right.  I choose to study a given situation/case/whatever, and make up my own mind.

As of this time, all I can say about this is, it smacks of a Ruby Ridge kind of situation, without the violence (Yet).

However, as a true patriot of this great country, I can say that there is a growing ass of people that are getting more and more fed up with the overreach exhibited by the government.  As far as these patriotic people go, any people feel that they're being pushed beyond the breaking point, and something has to change.  This is what I see as the impetus behind this move.

As far as the court's decision goes, my knee-jerk reaction to it is to say that double-jeopardy should apply, that these men should've been seen as serving time and paying their due to society.  The notion of 'federal' guidelines in sentencing should've been left to the wayside, because if the guidelines were so important, they should've been enforced during the original trial/sentencing phase.

Federal courts have a long history of cherry-picking cases to show the hard-line with.  Many who need severe penalties go with light sentences, while others that don't deserve it get harder time.  It's just an historical fact.

Burning 130 acres in an effort to safeguard against wildfires is rather ridiculous.  The fact that it was on federal land makes this a high-profile case, and the feds want to show themselves flexing their muscle.  Were this private land, it would've been seen as good land-management.  The key in all this is 'Federal' land.

Again, let me say this.  I AM NOT a knee-jerk Right-winger.  If I were, I wouldn't even be on this site.

[Beguile's Mistress]

Um, when you burn things on your own land, such as crops, I can see where it might be called land management.  However, when you burn something on land belonging to someone else it is usually called arson.

[Robelwell202]

Um, when you burn things on your own land, suck as crops, I can see where it might be called land management.  However, when you burn something on land belonging to someone else it is usually called arson.

You're absolutely right.  As I said, the key in this is 'Federal' land.

[Kythia]

I think BeMi's point was that the key is "someone else's" land.

[Robelwell202]

I think BeMi's point was that the key is "someone else's" land.

And I agreed with her.   That's the whole point.  :)

[Retribution]

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2660399/Statement-USattorney.pdf

A bit of the rest of the story for those interested.

[Beguile's Mistress]

Today's update.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ore-ranchers-at-center-of-protest-expected-to-report-to-prison/ar-AAgjRsH?li=BBnb7Kz

I see what the anit-government militia is doing as domestic terrorism and thing the Federal government should put a blockade around the building and prevent people from entering.  Cut of facilities like water and electricity and keep food from being brought in.  Anarchy deserves no respect.

[Zakharra]

Today's update.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ore-ranchers-at-center-of-protest-expected-to-report-to-prison/ar-AAgjRsH?li=BBnb7Kz

I see what the anit-government militia is doing as domestic terrorism and thing the Federal government should put a blockade around the building and prevent people from entering.  Cut of facilities like water and electricity and keep food from being brought in.  Anarchy deserves no respect.

I'd actually go a little farther. Get large metal plates and bolt those over the doors and lower windows so they cannot get out. If they want the building, they will stay in it (especially since it was abandoned?) until they surrender or come out peacefully. And if they fire, or attempt to do that on the workers bolting the sheet steel onto the doors and windows, that is ample reason for the Feds to shoot back.

Either way, it's better to just wait them out. Unless they brought in several hundred pounds of food, with water and electricity cut, they would not be able to stay there for long. Within a month, at the most, it would be over without firing a single shot.

At least the Hammonds seem to be behaving responsibly here. Unlike the Bundys.
Uhg.. I keep thinking of Ted Bundy when I hear the last name of Bundy.  >_<

[Beguile's Mistress]

I keep thing of the TV show "Married...with Children" and it's kind of tacky premise.

[HannibalBarca]

Considering this land was originally meant as a reservation, I wonder how the Bundys would feel if several armed Native Americans shacked up with them, much like the A.I.M. did at Wounded Knee.  Albeit for a different reason, but, hey--stand up for your freedom, right?

Perhaps several hundred environmentalists could move in, too, counter-protesting over the rights of bird-watchers who have lost their ability to bird-watch, due to the commandeering of the building?

I wonder how the Bundys, or the media, would react, if a dozen or so armed African-Americans took over a post office in Lynwood, California, and demanded reparations?

Really, to be completely serious...it is a Federal crime to bring weapons on Federal property.  Ignorance of the law doesn't excuse you from it.  They know what they are doing.  They are enforcing what they believe to be their rights by bringing the threat of violence with them.  Threatening violence to get what you want...isn't that the definition of terrorism?  You don't have to kill someone to be a terrorist, you just have to threaten to use violence, in order to get your way.

Last I checked, threatening to kill law enforcement personnel if they come near your proximity is a crime, not just terrorism.

[consortium11]

I mentioned this in the news thread as well.

I should start by saying that there are concerns with federally-imposed mandatory minimum sentences; I'm not a particular fan of them at any time as it prevents a judge from taking into account the circumstances of a case and the five years here seems particularly punitive. Likewise when you look into the background of this case there are some slightly dodgy looking elements that a conspiracy minded person might see as abuse by the feds to gain more land.

But none of that justifies what these guys are doing. And it certainly doesn't justify the "don't tread on me"/The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"/"I took and oath to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic" type language we're seeing from the youtube videos, some of which feature language which wouldn't exactly be out of place in the videos we see suicide bombers release. It's to the Hammond's credit that they've been rather level-headed and reasonable about this, rather than getting carried away themselves.

Hopefully the occupiers (and frankly, not far off terrorists) are simply drunk on political ideology at this point and a few days stuck out at a remote location without much in the way of comfort (reports are they brought a generator with them but that for all their talk of being there for years they may be struggling for food/supplies), cooler head prevail and they peacefully leave. There were no good guys and no winners at Waco or Ruby Ridge.

[Lustful Bride]

Considering this land was originally meant as a reservation, I wonder how the Bundys would feel if several armed Native Americans shacked up with them, much like the A.I.M. did at Wounded Knee.  Albeit for a different reason, but, hey--stand up for your freedom, right?

Oh man..that would be delicious.

Also side note: Even other Militia groups are calling them out on t heir shit and telling the Bundys that this is not how things are done.    One of the leaders said that the Bundy;s leader is doing this solely for himself and not for the people of his state.

[Mithlomwen]

Apparently one of the guys that's there with them has already posted an emotional 'goodbye' to his family and posted it on youtube.  He's claiming that he's taken an oath to 'uphold the constitution'.

[Retribution]

Well the Bundy gang got away with it last time after not paying grazing fees for like 20 years so they are at it again as the past success only seemed to encourage them. Why you cannot cut these types any slack. As for the Hammonds who are indeed acting like adults as far as I can tell, I would disagree with the premise that what they did was "not that bad."

If you read the link I posted they basically committed a felony while trying to cover up another felony. In my world that is some pretty outrageous behavior.

[Beguile's Mistress]

Does anyone know if they avoided the last refuge of the truly brave anarchist and left the children at home? 

[Valerian]

From what I understand some of these people are indeed bringing their children along.  It doesn't seem to be absolutely confirmed, so I'm still hoping it's inaccurate... but I'm rather afraid it's true.  :(

[fireflights]

One of the key things to remember here is while the Bundy's and others are feeling the Hammonds were unfairly treated....the Hammonds actually have said by way of their attorney that they in no way associate themselves with the Bundy's and their cause to do this in the Hammonds name. The fact that the Hammonds while they probably don't like the situation don't feel the same as those who are protesting should say lots in my book.

[Blythe]

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/heavily_armed_security_detail.html

.....

So the Hammonds and the townsfolks pretty much tell the Bundys and occupiers pretty much said "We didn't ask for your help, please leave. We don't like how this makes our protest look." The Bundys say no and sticks around.

The the Pacific Patriot Network shows up as a "neutral mediator" party. The Bundys and occupiers see that the PPN is pretty well-armed and are pretty much like "We didn't ask for your help, please leave. We don't like how this makes our protest look." The PPN says no and sticks around a bit.

At least, that's what I got out of that. >_>

I don't know how I feel about the PPN, but they did eventually depart, which is more than I can say for the Bundys.

[Blythe]

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/01/26/leader-of-oregon-occupation-arrested-1-dead-after-confrontation-with-authorities/21303384/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D-1483364478

One dead, one wounded, arrests seem to have been made

[Lustful Bride]

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/01/26/leader-of-oregon-occupation-arrested-1-dead-after-confrontation-with-authorities/21303384/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D-1483364478

One dead, one wounded, arrests seem to have been made

I haven't seen any news yet of who was killed. I really hope no FBI or local law enforcement lost their life to these scum.

Edit:Seems it was one of the bundy. And he was a foster parent....*sigh* I hate the group for what they did but I cant help but feel abit of sympathy.....

[Cycle]

The man that was shot was Tarp Man:  LaVoy Finicum.

The other occupiers are getting the book thrown at them.   As is Cliven, who was apparently either too stupid or too arrogant to think he could fly into Oregon and help resist the Feds.

[WhatLiesAbove]

The man that was shot was Tarp Man:  LaVoy Finicum.

The other occupiers are getting the book thrown at them.   As is Cliven, who was apparently either too stupid or too arrogant to think he could fly into Oregon and help resist the Feds.

In other words, it's totally over, with only one idiot as a casualty, because he reached for a gun.

[Far eyes]

I have, and will never understand the US and its fetish with Militias. Its like they have a permanent hardon for some Red Dawn like fantasy scenario. And Jim Bob and Billy Joe want to be the heroes, never realizing they are in fact not.

I can comprehend wanting to own a weapon for protecting your home, i can even kind of follow the logic of open carry permits... i disagree but ok. I understand and think you should have the right to own weapons if you live in wilderness areas ware you could possibly need them. But it seems like for every sane one you get 20 of these fucknuts.