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Author Topic: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)  (Read 8822 times)

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Offline Cycle

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #150 on: October 02, 2015, 01:21:13 PM »
No, the Pope did not endorse Kim Davis.  From the Vatican:

Quote
The brief meeting between Mrs. Kim Davis and Pope Francis at the Apostolic Nunciature in Washington, DC has continued to provoke comments and discussion. In order to contribute to an objective understanding of what transpired I am able to clarify the following points:

Pope Francis met with several dozen persons who had been invited by the Nunciature to greet him as he prepared to leave Washington for New York City. Such brief greetings occur on all papal visits and are due to the Pope’s characteristic kindness and availability. The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family.

The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects.


Offline eBadger

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #151 on: October 02, 2015, 01:51:16 PM »
Didn't endorse her, explicitly, but he met with her amiably - which is certainly a message.  It also ties into his earlier comments about the right of government worker to object. 

Either he's very ignorant of a major social issue in the US, which I don't believe, or it was intentional. 

Offline Cycle

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #152 on: October 02, 2015, 02:03:21 PM »
Quote
Pope Francis met with several dozen persons who had been invited by the Nunciature to greet him as he prepared to leave Washington for New York City. Such brief greetings occur on all papal visits and are due to the Pope’s characteristic kindness and availability.

Also:

Quote
“I was very disappointed to see the pope having been used that way, and that his willingness to be friendly to someone was turned against him,” Father Martin wrote. “What may originally have prevented them from issuing a statement was the desire not to give this story too much air. But what they eventually came to realize was that they needed to correct some gross misrepresentations of what had happened. It shows that Pope Francis met with many people on the trip, and that she was simply another person who he tried to be kind to.”

And:

Quote
Earlier Friday, [Vatican assistant spokesman, Rev. Thomas] Rosica said that Francis had not invited Davis to a gathering that included dozens of people and suggested that the meeting may have been manipulated by her and her lawyer.

Asked if she had exploited the encounter to promote her beliefs, he replied, “One could say that.”


More:

Quote
One Vatican official said there was "a sense of regret" that the pope had ever seen Kim Davis, a Kentucky county clerk

The people the Pope did grant a "real audience" to?  A gay man and his partner.

Quote
The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family.


Edit:  missing link fixed.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 03:30:44 PM by Cycle »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #153 on: October 02, 2015, 03:16:20 PM »
Your last link there doesn't go anywhere, Cycle.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #154 on: October 02, 2015, 11:11:10 PM »
The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects.

Some context on the current pope's views on homosexuality. It seems he's actually pro - unlike his evil predecessor pope Palpatine Benedict.
http://time.com/3975630/pope-francis-lgbt-issues/


Online Cassandra LeMay

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #155 on: October 03, 2015, 02:21:19 AM »
....  It also ties into his earlier comments about the right of government worker to object.

I take it you may be referring to this?
Quote
When asked specifically if he was including government workers in his response, Pope Francis responded: “It is a human right and if a government official is a human person, he has that right. It is a human right.”
Source: Washington Post

If so, context, as so often, is important here. He was talking about conscientous objection and emphasising that it should be a universal, human right with no exceptions, something that shold apply to everyone, government employee or not. But conscientous objection is a term with a specific meaning, namely the right to refuse military service if it runs counter to one's religious or personal believes. Stating that that should apply to government workers is far different from supporting the view that a government employee should have the right to stop discharging their duty in specific situations because of a religious belief outside military service contexts.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #156 on: October 03, 2015, 01:24:27 PM »
However, if I remember my history correctly, conscientious objectors in the military were placed in positions where their duties would not interfere with their religious beliefs.  Meaning that if it is her religious belief that gay people should not receive marriage licenses, she should be put in a job where her duties do not include giving licenses to gay people.

Which is the compromise that many people have suggested, and which she has consistently rejected.  (Hell, I'd do her job for half price!)

Online Cassandra LeMay

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #157 on: October 03, 2015, 01:49:12 PM »
However, if I remember my history correctly, conscientious objectors in the military were placed in positions where their duties would not interfere with their religious beliefs.
Yes and no. I think during WWI conscientous objectors were all placed in non-combat military roles, whereas during WWII there was also the option of civilian public service for those who objected against any participation in military activities, even in a non-combat role. Not sure what the situation was during the Vietnam War.

Offline BitterSweet

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #158 on: October 03, 2015, 03:16:09 PM »
Another significant difference between conscientious objectors - at least in the past military activities - is that they did not prevent others from doing their job/serving in the military as they wanted to/etc.  Davis is, specifically and intentionally preventing others from exercising their legal rights - which is a huge difference.  She has every right to practice her religion, no matter how odious, she does not have the right to impose those religious practices on others, especially when she represents the civil government.

Offline Jagerin

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Offline eBadger

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #160 on: October 05, 2015, 05:25:12 PM »
I take it you may be referring to this?Source: Washington Post

If so, context, as so often, is important here. He was talking about conscientous objection and emphasising that it should be a universal, human right with no exceptions, something that shold apply to everyone, government employee or not. But conscientous objection is a term with a specific meaning, namely the right to refuse military service if it runs counter to one's religious or personal believes. Stating that that should apply to government workers is far different from supporting the view that a government employee should have the right to stop discharging their duty in specific situations because of a religious belief outside military service contexts.

That comment is what I was referring to, but no, I don't believe your interpretation is correct.  Yes, the term Conscientious Objector usually applies to refusing military service (and has been stretched to breaking for the Davis situation, where she is expected to perform the duties of the office she ran for, rather than refusing an appointment she doesn't want).  However, a reading of the transcript shows a very clear question (emphasis mine):

Quote
Terry Moran, ABC News: Holy Father, thank you, thank you very much and thank you to the Vatican staff as well. Holy Father, you visited the Little Sisters of the Poor and we were told that you wanted to show your support for them and their case in the courts. And, Holy Father, do you also support those individuals, including government officials, who say they cannot in good conscience, their own personal conscience, abide by some laws or discharge their duties as government officials, for example in issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples? Do you support those kinds of claims of religious liberty?

Pope Francis: I can't have in mind all cases that can exist about conscientious objection. But, yes, I can say conscientious objection is a right that is a part of every human right. It is a right. And if a person does not allow others to be a conscientious objector, he denies a right. Conscientious objection must enter into every juridical structure because it is a right, a human right. Otherwise we would end up in a situation where we select what is a right, saying 'this right that has merit, this one does not.' It (conscientious objection) is a human right. It always moved me when I read, and I read it many times, when I read the Chancon Roland, when the people were all in line and before them was the baptismal font – the baptismal font or the sword. And, they had to choose. They weren't permitted conscientious objection. It is a right and if we want to make peace we have to respect all rights.

(A CNA editor notes that "Chancon Roland" is a reference to a poem, "Song of Roland in which Crusaders forced Muslims to choose between being baptized or being killed by the sword. The Pope says they were not allowed to choose conscientious objection.")

Terry Moran, ABC News: Would that include government officials as well?

Pope Francis: It is a human right and if a government official is a human person, he has that right. It is a human right.

Note that Moran even followed it up with a second question to affirm the answer. 

I appreciate that many want Francis to be The Pope, and also that he has made great strides forward in many ways.  He is not a completely backward bigot and is worthy of respect for what he has done.  However, the message has been made pretty clear that while he emphasizes respect, he will not support including LGBT persons into the Catholic church. 

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #161 on: October 05, 2015, 05:25:43 PM »
I'm not seeing any of the major news outlets reporting this so far, just a lot of smaller, fringe news sites. It could be that it's just very fresh news.


Liberty Counsel is definitely listed on their website:
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/liberty-counsel

Edit:  I found another article stating the the Associated Press reported this on Sunday.
http://spectrum.suntimes.com/news/10/155/3534/liberty-counsel-hate-group
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 05:31:22 PM by TaintedAndDelish »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #162 on: October 05, 2015, 06:48:10 PM »
I appreciate that many want Francis to be The Pope, and also that he has made great strides forward in many ways.  He is not a completely backward bigot and is worthy of respect for what he has done.  However, the message has been made pretty clear that while he emphasizes respect, he will not support including LGBT persons into the Catholic church.

However, issuing them a marriage license is not the same as including them in the Catholic church.  It is providing them with documentation for purely secular purposes (spousal privileges in hospitals, next of kin rights, the ability to be taxed as a married couple, etc.)

Offline eBadger

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #163 on: October 05, 2015, 06:52:09 PM »
However, issuing them a marriage license is not the same as including them in the Catholic church.  It is providing them with documentation for purely secular purposes (spousal privileges in hospitals, next of kin rights, the ability to be taxed as a married couple, etc.)

I'm not sure what point you're making here.  Do you feel he's more likely to welcome LGBT into the church than support secular equality?

Offline Oniya

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Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #164 on: October 05, 2015, 06:58:36 PM »
I'm saying that his views on accepting them into the church is something which affects only a portion of LGBT couples applying for marriage licenses.  The fact that he doesn't 'welcome them into the church' doesn't and shouldn't affect whether they are entitled to the secular documentation that Kim Davis is interfering with.

I'd imagine that full acceptance into the Roman Catholic Church is something that will take a lot longer than the Supreme Court decision.

Offline eBadger

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #165 on: October 06, 2015, 12:04:39 AM »
Of course.  Steps could be made, though; thus far he hasn't been very impressive on that front, following one non-judgmental flash of hope. 

And yes, I realize it only affects a portion of those applying for licenses: but he's the pope, it's his portion.  He's obviously not going to change our government.  He can, however, change the church, which has been the focal point of much of the anti-gay rights movement.  Removing that support would be tremendous. 

Let me put it another way.  He is the one person in the world who can, with a single announcement, make a huge step forward for the civil rights of millions of people across the entire world.  I find it heartbreaking that, despite being a generally good person, when the opportunity came over and over to take that step, to even feel it out, he chose not to do so. 

Offline Oniya

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Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #166 on: October 06, 2015, 03:06:11 PM »
Let me put it another way.  He is the one person in the world who can, with a single announcement, make a huge step forward for the civil rights of millions of people across the entire world.  I find it heartbreaking that, despite being a generally good person, when the opportunity came over and over to take that step, to even feel it out, he chose not to do so.

This, I agree with. 

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #167 on: October 06, 2015, 04:23:14 PM »
Indeed, though with the caveat that I know very little of the Catholic Church's internal workings, I wonder how much he actually can do. Unofficial personal statements like the ones previously linked, or having private meetings with LGBT people, he does, but I wonder if his personal feelings and his duty as the head of the RCC are in conflict here. The RCC is the largest and most entrenched conservative group on Earth - a blanket statement of welcoming/acceptance for LBGT individuals into the church would directly clash against that conservative ethos. Is it possible that his small-steps approach is more of an attempt at gradualism instead of indecisiveness, where a drastic announcement of that sort could (in his eyes, at least) result in unacceptable backlash amongst the church members that are his first priority and whom could not, at this point in time, accept that sort of doctrinal change?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 04:27:28 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline eBadger

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #168 on: October 06, 2015, 04:45:52 PM »
Is it possible that his small-steps approach is more of an attempt at gradualism instead of indecisiveness, where a drastic announcement of that sort could (in his eyes, at least) result in unacceptable backlash amongst the church members that are his first priority and whom could not, at this point in time, accept that sort of doctrinal change?

That is, of course, the way it would need to be approached.  Unfortunately, I don't see evidence of those small steps. 

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #169 on: October 06, 2015, 04:58:18 PM »
That is, of course, the way it would need to be approached.  Unfortunately, I don't see evidence of those small steps.

I'm talking about things like his pronouncement in 2013 with regards to gay clergy members.
Quote
“If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”
Small on itself, but gigantic relative to Benedict XVI and other previous popes who outright condemned homosexuality.

Or how in his recent tour of the US, his only extended private meeting was with a gay former student of his and his partner, which was already discussed up-thread. If those small steps are still too small for you, that's one thing, but they are the steps I am referring to.

Offline Sara Nilsson

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #170 on: October 06, 2015, 05:28:20 PM »
Yeah but he seems to have been backing like mad from those comments, so frankly I am not expecting things to move forward towards equality in the catholic church within the next few lifetimes. Not with him now inviting lots of hate groups and making one anti lgbt statement after another.

The initial comments from him where positive yes but.. meh I am not so sure the pope really has much say within the church, he seems to be more and more just a mouthpiece spouting the usual hatred that they all have been spouting since the beginning.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/10/06/the-vatican-is-allegedly-secretly-funding-gay-cure-therapy/

when yes allegedly but still when news like that start to surface, yeah the church isnt gonna change until they realize that they have no supporters left. And they still got plenty left in the world.

Offline eBadger

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #171 on: October 06, 2015, 05:48:29 PM »
I'm talking about things like his pronouncement in 2013 with regards to gay clergy members.Small on itself, but gigantic relative to Benedict XVI and other previous popes who outright condemned homosexuality.

That was the flash of hope I referred to earlier.  It seemed to lay the subtle groundwork for more inclusive policies without directly challenging the previous dogma.  It has not been followed with any further talk of inclusion, however.  Just with the Kim Davis issue, given repeated opportunity for a considered response, claiming she 'mislead' him - there was a clear opportunity to lay some basic groundwork for human rights, even just another claim that he couldn't judge a person for their acts or a vague notion that he didn't agree with how she handled her objection.  Such a blatant opportunity, in fact, that it says a great deal that it wasn't taken. 

Let’s Be Honest: The Pope Probably Agrees With Kim Davis on Same-Sex Marriage

Or how in his recent tour of the US, his only extended private meeting was with a gay former student of his and his partner, which was already discussed up-thread. If those small steps are still too small for you, that's one thing, but they are the steps I am referring to.

He also went to a prison.  I think, in his mind, there is a clear parallel. 

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #172 on: October 06, 2015, 05:56:41 PM »
Yeah but he seems to have been backing like mad from those comments, so frankly I am not expecting things to move forward towards equality in the catholic church within the next few lifetimes. Not with him now inviting lots of hate groups and making one anti lgbt statement after another.

The initial comments from him where positive yes but.. meh I am not so sure the pope really has much say within the church, he seems to be more and more just a mouthpiece spouting the usual hatred that they all have been spouting since the beginning.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/10/06/the-vatican-is-allegedly-secretly-funding-gay-cure-therapy/

when yes allegedly but still when news like that start to surface, yeah the church isnt gonna change until they realize that they have no supporters left. And they still got plenty left in the world.

Eh What?

I have yet to hear anything about 'inviting lots of hate groups', or him making explicit anti-LGBT statements other than the usual party-line bits; for that matter, he never really backtracked on his comments at all, it was the Vatican offices falling over themselves to clarify how the Pope hadn't just endorsed the gay lifestyle...exactly the sort of backlash I mentioned.

As for that so-called 'secret gay cure camp'...unless there's a reputable source, and not just one person with a (legitimate) grudge and definite motive for making the Church look bad, I'm going to chalk that up alongside 'the Pope is secretly a space alien'.

That was the flash of hope I referred to earlier.  It seemed to lay the subtle groundwork for more inclusive policies without directly challenging the previous dogma.  It has not been followed with any further talk of inclusion, however.  Just with the Kim Davis issue, given repeated opportunity for a considered response, claiming she 'mislead' him - there was a clear opportunity to lay some basic groundwork for human rights, even just another claim that he couldn't judge a person for their acts or a vague notion that he didn't agree with how she handled her objection.  Such a blatant opportunity, in fact, that it says a great deal that it wasn't taken. 

Let’s Be Honest: The Pope Probably Agrees With Kim Davis on Same-Sex Marriage

He also went to a prison.  I think, in his mind, there is a clear parallel. 

Do I think Francis supports gay marriage? No - he's an extremely devout Catholic, of course not; you don't get to be Pope if you don't believe in and are willing to espouse the party line. But I do think he is the most liberal Pope that the Church has seen in pretty much forever, and he does intend to at least be laying the groundwork for a kinder, more inclusive Church while he's in power. He's only been in the Papacy for 2 years so far; balanced against 2 millennia of inertia to overcome, I'm willing to cut him some slack for now and hope he lives up to my impression.

Offline eBadger

Re: Kim Davis, Marriage Licenses, etc. (split from News)
« Reply #173 on: October 06, 2015, 06:19:44 PM »
Do I think Francis supports gay marriage? No - he's an extremely devout Catholic, of course not; you don't get to be Pope if you don't believe in and are willing to espouse the party line. But I do think he is the most liberal Pope that the Church has seen in pretty much forever, and he does intend to at least be laying the groundwork for a kinder, more inclusive Church while he's in power. He's only been in the Papacy for 2 years so far; balanced against 2 one millennia of inertia to overcome, I'm willing to cut him some slack for now and hope he lives up to my impression.

Sorry, the historian in me had to fix that. 

As to the rest: I see your case and I hope you're right, that it's inclusion and not just tolerance.  Little else to do now, I think, than see how it unfolds.   

Offline Mithlomwen

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« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 04:21:43 PM by Mithlomwen »