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Author Topic: Falls over laughing  (Read 5744 times)

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Offline Braioch

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #125 on: September 10, 2013, 10:46:33 AM »
Considering the fact that the only people who have stated that religion is ill treated on E are the same ones creating a fuss over a light joke, I'm a bit ill disposed to giving it credit, especially without any good examples to back it up. And as to what I'm 'showing' myself to be in your view is interesting, considering it again goes back to the bias thing. See, anytime on this site that I have seen this so called 'disrespect' is when religion is called into question, or not taken as 'sacred.' Sorry, that doesn't smack of disrespect, that's called critical thinking in the former example and a different viewpoint of the latter example.

And oh no, another joke?

This ridiculous, yes ridiculous, overreaction to a joke is mind boggling to me, if I were to get offended every time someone made a passing joke about my atheism, I'd be angry often. Honestly, I know more people of faith who make light of their own faith than anyone else typically does, because apparently, if you don't agree with that faith, you can't poke fun at it, or have a joke about it. Interesting how that's turning out.


...and seriously Cyrano, your google-fu is way way weak.


Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #126 on: September 10, 2013, 10:52:08 AM »
I am usually more in sympathy with Pumpkin on the treatment of religion on E -- just felt she was wrong in this instance -- but kitten with cupcakes make it all better! BOOM! Braioch is the new champine!

Offline Beorning

Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #127 on: September 10, 2013, 10:58:38 AM »
Maybe it's something about religious or political affiliation that transcends particular national boundaries.

Maybe, but I am also an atheist...  ;D So it's not about religious affiliation, either (I think?).
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 11:04:46 AM by Beorning »

Offline Braioch

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #128 on: September 10, 2013, 11:04:21 AM »
As I said, a majority of what I've seen has just been people not willing to give religion as wide a berth as it's used to being afforded. That's not disrespect, that's equal treatment.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #129 on: September 10, 2013, 11:09:22 AM »
I haven't read every single post in this thread and don't intend to, but I have a bad taste in my mouth after reading the first few and last few pages. It seems that those who are jumping up and down about people joking about religion and making light of it, saying that it's "disrespectful" don't really have a healthy view of what actually qualifies as disrespectful or offensive.

Religion, like any other issue from politics, to education, to social views, is deserving of no more respect than anything else out there, and should be treated with a healthy dose of objectivity and critical thinking. It doesn't get a free pass from being joked about or made light of. It doesn't get a free pass from being questioned or criticized. Quite frankly, with the level of power that religion has had over the centuries in terms of law, social constructs, etc... it should be treated with more criticism and questioning than anything else.

It should also be noted that making a harmless joke like "is the good news that unicorns are real?" is not at all on the same level as saying "your faith is moronic and you're an idiot". It's a humorous way to deflect what was likely an incoming attempt at proselytizing, which is invasive and rude. Your faith is your own. If I was interested in it, I'd ask you. Do not presume that you can walk up to a stranger on the street (or anyone, anywhere else) and start talking to them about your faith and not be met with some kind of strong reaction, be it positive or negative. Faith (or lack there of) is a very personal issue, and not everyone is open to discussing it, it's wrong to assume they will be.

Also, it's inherently flawed to compare wanting to talk about your faith with complete strangers and wanting to talk to them about common social issues that effect everyone. Faith is, as I stated before, something personal and your faith has no effect on anyone else, which is why you're free to chose and worship as you wish. Social issues like gay marriage, gun control, possible war, etc are things that literally have an effect on everyone, because they have to do with laws and policies that effect and influence society and day-to-day life of all citizens, regardless of their religion, race, etc. Sure gay marriage might not actually effect you if you're straight, but it has the potential to effect your kids, your friends, your neighbors.

Offline kylie

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #130 on: September 10, 2013, 11:15:46 AM »
Quote from: Pumpkin Seeds
Well Kylie I would say I complained about conservative and someone else complained that you didn’t assume their country correctly.  To this point your generalization seems a tad faulty so people can complain about the poor assumption made.

     When I said the US, right -- there I was assuming that the OP situation happened in the US, actually.  So if you think that was aimed at Beorning, you misunderstood. 

     Again it's immaterial to me at this point whether it's an American conservative per se saying 'no jokes about religion.'  Point remains it seems that there are a fair number of people out there who are averse to jokes about such things, to the point that they attack the very notion of any sarcasm on various issues.  Show me that the same trend is negligible in other countries and I'll say okay, never mind, toss that.  But I hardly expect that you would find no touchy, anti-sarcasm figures in swaths of Europe for example.  Why, Italy is a place where Amanda Knox was tried with all sorts of references to the devil and witchcraft. 

    Now honestly, I think you're drawing out "Oh what did Kylie assume?" a great deal, but in ways that don't really make much difference to the thread and to what I was actually doing with that.
     
Quote
There is obviously a double standard here where religion is allowed to be ridiculed but other social issues are discouraged from being treated the same.
     I believe this has been discussed.  First of all, we have more evidence at hand what the social issues are about.  Many of us feel that people are more likely to for example, die or suffer economic loss for their gender or sex object preferences than for their lack of knowledge in who knows how many churches' particular platforms?  So if you make light of that in a way that's going to get someone losing a job or killed, yeah, we might have something serious to talk about. 

     But I wouldn't try to tell you that nothing at all could be funny about LGBT or that there is nothing ironic and laughable to find there.  On the contrary, I find lots of things about LGBT (organizations and political groups especially!) really laughable and worthy of being picked on.  But here you are telling me, I gather, that it should be some moral minefield to make any jokes at the expense of people with a religion.  In particular, you're telling me not to do it in a situation where they reasonably appear to be set upon converting someone.  (You could perhaps reduce these trigger situations, and any real misunderstandings, somewhat by finding more interesting and varied ways of speaking to someone besides starting conversations out on Ye Old Goode News.)

     Also, there seems to be a demand for religions to actually be treated more kindly than other people showing with a pitch at some random time in my life.  If I laugh about the New Labor Party showing up at my door at 10 pm, or Toys R Us or Avon for that matter, I'm not allowed to do it for a religion?  Huh?  That's already practically a demand that I treat religion more seriously than others, and I'm not even religious!  Totally unrealistic.  You might as well demand to have no one to want to convert, to begin with.   Or demand that I treat UFO fanatics all completely seriously.  More or less the same to me.   

      Why it would just be a show trial.  The Inquisition at the door:  "Is this one taking us seriously?  Noooo?"  Or once you get this rule implemented: "See you recognized me as important because oh I have FAITH.  Well, I can see eventually I'm going to get your attention because see, you already have.  It's the rule of my lovely theocracy.  You HAVE to take everyone completely seriously.  Especially me, because this is about religion and it's not only a social group, why it's personal and moral.  Don't you agree?  Be careful answering that, now.  Don't smirk."   Thank Goddess and all the spirits and the Sphaghetti Monster and Cthulu and the Altar to Ultimate Agnosticism and My Little Pony and the Tooth Fairy and Lex Luthor the Wannabe Little Satan and all the Lovely Flying Pandas of the Abyss I invented in my 22nd life in -(that's negative mind you) 270,000 BC, no I do not have to do any such thing.  Rubbish.

Quote
Also there is a simple notion of simple respect being offered to another person.
     Been there, done that.  Iniq appears to me, to be defining respect as hosting a "witness" meeting at some length in her home.  I don't agree with her standard.  Beorning seems to require that no one pick on anyone who might have a rough day or a hard job, ever.  I'm afraid that would only make many of our days much harder and rougher, if not outright destructive.  Can't promise that either.  "Simple" respect used this way, starts to have all those problems of "common" sense.  That, I am willing to grant you! 

Quote
Then there is the issue of coming online to brag about the exploits.
     I'm a little more open to this one...  Sure, you'd expect less argument in G&C.  Still, I don't think it merits anywhere near the level of outrage and venom I sensed from Iniq.  Reads as complete overkill/ risking hyperbole to me, and possibly showing a desire to have no space for the OP either.  Can't expect much appreciation there.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 11:35:11 AM by kylie »

Offline kylie

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #131 on: September 10, 2013, 11:34:10 AM »
Quote from: Bloodied Porcelain
Also, it's inherently flawed to compare wanting to talk about your faith with complete strangers and wanting to talk to them about common social issues that effect everyone. Faith is, as I stated before, something personal and your faith has no effect on anyone else, which is why you're free to chose and worship as you wish.
     I agree with that...  But it's practically the essence of "evangelic faith" to work against it.

     And there we have the crux of the issue, and perhaps so much opposition and ridicule flying both ways.  One side feels a need to play "witness" for something the other may not even care to court at all.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #132 on: September 10, 2013, 11:37:21 AM »
Huh, had a point to make but can't fulfil the "All points must accompanied by a picture of a kitten cuddling a cupcake" requirement.  Guess I'll keep shtum.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #133 on: September 10, 2013, 11:58:26 AM »
So, yesterday one of the little Oni's classmates started giving her a hard time because of the purse she bought at the RenFaire.  She picked it out, but it does have a certain alternative religious symbol on it.  Happens to be the religion we practice.  He told her he was going to tell the teacher that she had 'Satanic stuff' in class.

I gave her a couple of rejoinders to use.  I won't share the first one because it's a play on her name, but I told her she could always point out 'I can do magic - didn't you see the talent show?', say that she has a wand and wizard's robes to go with it, or go all StoreHouse Junior on him and start talking about the Order of Pythagoras.  Humorous deflection?  Yup.  And if you can't dazzle 'em with dialog, baffle 'em with bullshit.

When Mr. Oniya was in middle-to-high school, there was a guy who would walk around dipping his fingers in water, spritzing people with it and saying 'Made you a Catholic.'  That stopped when Mr. Oniya retorted with a smile, saying 'Does that mean I can make you a Jew?'  (Which resulted in said spritzer covering his groin and backing off quickly.)  I suspect that this was more a case of the other kid being a bit of an ass, rather than an attempt at conversion, but the humor got the point across that it wasn't welcome.

And in keeping with the theme, A cupcake that is a kitten.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #134 on: September 10, 2013, 12:12:09 PM »
So, yesterday one of the little Oni's classmates started giving her a hard time because of the purse she bought at the RenFaire.  She picked it out, but it does have a certain alternative religious symbol on it.  Happens to be the religion we practice.  He told her he was going to tell the teacher that she had 'Satanic stuff' in class.

I gave her a couple of rejoinders to use.  I won't share the first one because it's a play on her name, but I told her she could always point out 'I can do magic - didn't you see the talent show?', say that she has a wand and wizard's robes to go with it, or go all StoreHouse Junior on him and start talking about the Order of Pythagoras.  Humorous deflection?  Yup.  And if you can't dazzle 'em with dialog, baffle 'em with bullshit.

When Mr. Oniya was in middle-to-high school, there was a guy who would walk around dipping his fingers in water, spritzing people with it and saying 'Made you a Catholic.'  That stopped when Mr. Oniya retorted with a smile, saying 'Does that mean I can make you a Jew?'  (Which resulted in said spritzer covering his groin and backing off quickly.)  I suspect that this was more a case of the other kid being a bit of an ass, rather than an attempt at conversion, but the humor got the point across that it wasn't welcome.

And in keeping with the theme, A cupcake that is a kitten.

Entirely unrelated to the OP, but the more I hear about Mr. Oniya and Little Oni, the more I become convinced that your family is made of molten awesome.

Offline Braioch

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #135 on: September 10, 2013, 12:35:22 PM »
My view is pretty much her Avi, a smaller version of her avi with pigtails and now a wand, and the other one of approximate size of her Avi, but with a fantastic mustache and top hat.

Offline Shjade

Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #136 on: September 10, 2013, 01:39:40 PM »
All in all, this thread appears to be a blue ribbon example for the statement, "This is why we can't have nice things."

Starts out as a joke thread - possibly a pretty weak joke thread, up to the reader's sense of humor - and devolves into an overblown debacle not because of religion bashing, but because of pre-emptive defensiveness about religion bashing which then, perhaps ironically, inspires responses that are much closer to religion bashing than the OP, thereby motivating even more defensiveness and we're off to the races.

I can't figure out why either side took it so seriously.

Offline Braioch

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #137 on: September 10, 2013, 02:32:21 PM »
Shjade, the rules have changed, we can't take you seriously unless you bring a cat picture into the mix.

Offline Shjade

Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #138 on: September 10, 2013, 04:02:23 PM »
That's okay, since my point was for people to not take things seriously. Might as well start with me! =D

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #139 on: September 10, 2013, 04:08:13 PM »


Offline Beorning

Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #140 on: September 10, 2013, 04:23:50 PM »
Already posted! :P  ;)

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #141 on: September 10, 2013, 05:22:39 PM »
Sad to say but 17 hours isn’t unusual.  What is unusual and sucks is they still expect me to be there early to be in charge.

As for religion being sacred, I really could care less the berth people give to religion.  I simply believe in mutual respect for things that people hold dear and personal.  Not once have I argued that religion should be treated more sacredly than someone’s view point on gay marriage or abortion.  These are interests, beliefs and ideas held close to people’s hearts.  These notions should be treated with respect when engaging in discussion with people.  If the man is indeed going around talking to people about his religion than he is being brave enough to share with others something he personal and important to himself.  Just as someone going door to door for gay marriage is doing the same.  A simple, “no thank you” is all that would have taken.  Sadly, the OP couldn’t brag about having said “no thank you.”

There is no inherent difference between someone approaching me regarding abortion rights than someone approaching me regarding religion.  They are coming to make some attempt to garner my support for their causes.  I might be opposed to their cause or have no interest in their cause, so in effect the situations become similar.  Making a rude joke or comment to one is the same, regardless of purpose of their approach. 

As for religion bashing evidence, there have been threads created with titles about the intelligence of people of faith and entire discussion revolving around how religion should just be destroyed.  There are entire discussion talking about how religious people are evil, how religion has destroyed such and such and etc.  There is a difference between using critical thinking to debate with a person the merits and flaws of religion and simply resorting to calling them evil and stupid.  I do not see how simply asking for intelligent discussion and respect in regard to religion is asking for religion to be sacred.  Entire threads are shut down for much less insult than is given in some of these religious discussions.  The line is crossed when the ideas and philosophies of religion, when the institution becomes less a target than the people.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 05:27:21 PM by Pumpkin Seeds »

Offline Shjade

Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #142 on: September 10, 2013, 05:43:59 PM »
As for religion bashing evidence, there have been threads created with titles about the intelligence of people of faith and entire discussion revolving around how religion should just be destroyed.  There are entire discussion talking about how religious people are evil, how religion has destroyed such and such and etc.

Oh, there's no question people have made some pretty horrible threads that could fairly be described as anti-religion on this forum.

This just isn't one of those threads, despite how some have attempted to portray it as one.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #143 on: September 10, 2013, 05:51:28 PM »
Oh, there's no question people have made some pretty horrible threads that could fairly be described as anti-religion on this forum.

This just isn't one of those threads, despite how some have attempted to portray it as one.


PumpkinSeeds' point (as I read it at least) is that the atmosphere those threads create - and posts in this one, I return to TaintedandDelish - are, in her opinion, the reason this rather pointless thread was made.  That the OP wanted validation for an action she saw as funny and knew that the culture of PROC would give that validation.  I'm inclined to agree that this thread as a whole hasn't particularly fallen into that category or even the OP's actions taken alone.  But they are - in Pumpkin's opinion if I read her right and in mine certainly - the things that created a tacit atmosphere that made the OP think that a thread devoted to bragging how she had made a joke (and a thread titled "Falls over laughing" which discusses your own joke is clearly nothing but bragging) would get her the validation she wanted.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #144 on: September 10, 2013, 06:37:23 PM »
All in all, this thread appears to be a blue ribbon example for the statement, "This is why we can't have nice things."

So, so right.

Except for kittens with cupcakes. Those are nice things.

Offline kylie

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #145 on: September 10, 2013, 07:02:21 PM »
Starts out as a joke thread - possibly a pretty weak joke thread, up to the reader's sense of humor - and devolves into an overblown debacle not because of religion bashing, but because of pre-emptive defensiveness about religion bashing which then, perhaps ironically, inspires responses that are much closer to religion bashing than the OP, thereby motivating even more defensiveness and we're off to the races.

I can't figure out why either side took it so seriously.

     What eats me is that Iniq's response read to me as what you might expect of a formal complaint about impropriety.  Enough puffy repetitions of uncivil, intolerant, and rude, etc. -- with enough "oomph" and insistence about simply taking offense -- and I start to wonder when someone is going to go and have a race instead to see who can be first to complain to the admins in PM loudest, or what is possibly going to ratchet things up to the thread being locked before responses come back.  That's a formula that often shuts things down with a chilling effect, and I do take that seriously.

Quote from: Pumpkin Seeds
Entire threads are shut down for much less insult than is given in some of these religious discussions.  The line is crossed when the ideas and philosophies of religion, when the institution becomes less a target than the people.
     And there it is more directly, even.  Sounds to me like someone thinks the thread should be shut down in order to freeze out all reports of, "Yeah I made a little joke about being approached I think by someone seriously seeking to convert me into something I have no interest in whatsoever, and I found it pretty amusing that the joke actually worked and bought me some space and relief."  Heaven forbid anyone let off some steam when they're approached in ways they don't care for -- and ways many others also don't care for.  Particularly if the evangelist actually backed off and didn't go on with their very serious work of pressing the conversation!  Oh horrors. 

     I can understand Pumpkin thinks that religion is of such importance that people should tread as carefully around it as say gun control or gay rights or war and peace or the environment or road maintenance, what have you.  After all, many people have made up their mind that their religion is going to provide some meaning for a lot of parts of life, so in a circular way it has to be important (arguably more important, or it wouldn't be able to cover everything very well, but anyway).  I just can't agree because here in particular, treating religion "equally" means acknowledging that what is important to some people, is continually placing demands on others to accept something that cannot be verified and may already be diametrically opposed to their beliefs -- while at the same time to me it obviously isn't as important as other said issues which can be observed and dealt with. 

      Moreover in the case of other said issues you are more likely to be engaged in some hearing on what are we all going to do about it (or not) or why are we even having this talk right now, aside from the other's wish to drag me into this or that group and place any number of other unspecified demands on me.  The format of the approach is all about demanding boundless, unconditional recognition and the demand for no jokes is part of that.  It's not a demand I would even consider reasonable about things that are important to me -- that sort of complaint, I would only get into if the joke is aimed at merits of some specific, tangible issue. 

      Now if Pumpkin didn't consider war and peace for Syria, say, to be handled reasonably as an issue and project by someone who came along demanding she join a certain protest, I may think she's laughing at a messy or erroneous handling of a real, identifiable issue and agree it was all pretty silly.  But if she goes demanding I treat "evangelic people" as serious business just because quite a few people say it's important to them, well why not the Organization for the Liberation of Sentient Holy Lawn Gnomes, too?  (What if they have declared there is no God but the lawn gnome, and evangelizing to them is a mortal threat according to the specifics of their religion?  Will Pumpkin then apologize and promise that they will never be approached again?  That would mean taking away something important from the Seriousness of people who believe it's their duty to evangelize.)  And then there's everyone else who wants to sit next to you on the bus constantly discussing, or to debate or shelter in your house tonight and over the next three years.
 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 07:17:20 PM by kylie »

Offline Shjade

Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #146 on: September 10, 2013, 08:57:00 PM »

PumpkinSeeds' point (as I read it at least) is that the atmosphere those threads create - and posts in this one, I return to TaintedandDelish - are, in her opinion, the reason this rather pointless thread was made.

See, the thing about that that strikes me as funny? TaintedandDelish's first post in the thread was just "Good one, TSM :)" That's it.

The posts you linked where T&D gets more "bashy?" Those happened after Pumpkin started posting about the thread's content being so negative and comparing it to mocking promoters of gay rights. This is what I meant about preemptive defensiveness; the upset about the atmosphere such threads create was being brought up before the atmosphere was even there, perhaps even causing it to appear by bringing those kinds of responses out of the woodwork to provoke the people who were acting touchy before anything really worth getting touchy about had even been brought up in the thread.

In other words, at the very least, Pumpkin and Iniq hijacked the thread to talk about E's forum community stance toward religion; at worst, they encouraged the very behavior they were complaining about in the process.

On the other bit though, yeah, the thread was pointless in the first place.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #147 on: September 10, 2013, 10:44:29 PM »
So my stating my opinion on the matter is excuse for someone to begin religion bashing.  Good to know.  This is pretty much amounting to, "keep your mouth shut and we'll be nice."
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 10:46:09 PM by Pumpkin Seeds »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #148 on: September 10, 2013, 11:15:22 PM »
     What eats me is that Iniq's response read to me as what you might expect of a formal complaint about impropriety.  Enough puffy repetitions of uncivil, intolerant, and rude, etc. -- with enough "oomph" and insistence about simply taking offense -- and I start to wonder when someone is going to go and have a race instead to see who can be first to complain to the admins in PM loudest, or what is possibly going to ratchet things up to the thread being locked before responses come back.  That's a formula that often shuts things down with a chilling effect, and I do take that seriously.
 

Of course, there's always the option for people to take it upon themselves to take a step back and remember to be civil to one another before staff intervenes.

Offline Shjade

Re: Falls over laughing
« Reply #149 on: September 10, 2013, 11:24:37 PM »
You're right, Pumpkin, that's exactly what I said.  ::)

It's more like, "if you shout 'fire,' expect people to show up with hoses."