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Author Topic: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith  (Read 3614 times)

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Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2012, 07:57:25 PM »
That was actually directed to Ironwolf ^^' He mentioned he thinks faith is a good thing, and I was curious if he could elaborate. But thank you for that regardless.

As for my own opinion, I find it kind of sad that we attribute the good deeds of religious people to their faith. Kind of robs them of their worth in my eyes. Is it too much to say that good people do good things? Should we defend religion because there are very nice people out there who do nice things in the name of their God? I don't think so. Not a single one of those people would change if religion never came into their lives. They would still be good people.

And if any of them did revert to bastards if religion were not in their lives, then I guess they were just earning browny points to avoid Hell, and you can never convince me that's a good thing.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2012, 08:02:42 PM »
As individuals we have a responsibility to view the individual with an objective eye.  Adherence to a faith or not, belief in god or not, belief there is a go or not, and acceptance of any proven method of spreading our own personal gospel aside the value of a person resides with them and how they act no matter what organizations they belong too.

I don't care what you believe as long as you use your faith for good and let me live my faith in peace.  People make war and people harm and kill.  I have friends who are muslim among many other things.  They are open minded, giving people and I accept them as such.  I have friends who are Atheists (of many varieties), Christians (of many faiths) and Jews (of each level of orthodoxy) and have no problem with the person they are or the way they practice their religion.

Thank you.. better put than I can. I know a LOT of people .. of MANY faiths. I refuse to let the brush of an attitude towards one faith (or anything else) color how I treat them and the people of that faith I've yet to meet.

Let fear guide my attitude does them a great disservice towards them..and lessens my own ability to be responsible for my actions.

You know what I have had to live with my whole life oversears? The 'Ugly American' tourist. Most of the time, unless I speak (I have a very very thick carolina accent with a little georgia burr) you can't spot me in the crowd in Europe. I like wearing what the locals wear and aside from my Navy Reg haircut I tended to look like most folks.

I said please, thiank you.. asked folks what they would suggest to try. Asked about what it was. Tried it. Enjoyed it. We are all people of this world, we have to find ways to get along. Too many folks today are trying to divide us. Why can't we find something in others we like. I miss this AWESOME Iranian resturant in Dubai. (I had never had goat before that place). It was about 4 blocks north of the Gold Souk.

I try to respect the people I deal with, I treat them with dignity and politeness because I want them to do the same. I walked many streets in my countries, and despite the diffrences of clothing, culture and language and style I saw folks trying to get by, raise their families and improve their lot in life.

I have seen folk talk about the 'good times' and 'bad times' back home. I talked with the folks that ran the resturant, and I could see it clear in their face why they were in Dubai. For their family. I've talked with a guy who walked HUNDREDS of miles with his birth certificate to get to the US from Somolia.. so he could one day bring his mother and father to the states. I sat with a man and watched him pray during Ramanda while driving us around. He spoke good english and showed me the nicest little coffee shop as soon as the sun went down. I spoke with a Spanish muslim who told me of the time and trials his family had suffered in the south of Spain, but spoke with pride of being a Spaniard. He pointed to a castle. "My family built that."

They aren't bad guys..they are just normal folks. They were happy to explain their faith to me when and if I asked, they didn't push it on me (unlike some fundamental Christians I have known who tried to 'save me' at every discussion). They appreciated my respect of their ways, and respected mine (though I'm a poor christian at best.. too many years in Ireland seeing sectarian violence).

These are the majority. People like you and I who do what they have to get by. They aren't looking for 72 virgins in the afterlife or forcing their ways on another, but simple folks trying to raise families and keeping their heads down from the men who have the guns and taken their lands from them or pushed them out of them.

The man with the bomb ISN'T Islam. No more than the small family church picketing the fallen soldier's funerals and mocking their families are Christian.

Online Ironwolf85

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Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2012, 08:05:53 PM »
Just curious, what kind of faith do you find good? Because I've always known the word to mean 'belief without evidence', but that don't inspire works of art. So I'm curious of what you mean by that :)

You see sabby I can think of no other way to explain what I mean quickly than to call it faith...

But what I mean, in total, non clipped version...

Faith that existence has a purpose, something that cannot be proven, or disproven. That man can reach a form of inner peace, and understanding, and thus come into harmony with both his fellow man, and the entire universe around him.

"Religion" to me is a manmade doctrinal concept, and not nessary for faith, if it helps you think... go ahead... but not nessary.

When I say there is a diffrence between "Faith" and "Religion" that is what I mean, but try saying that outside church or philophy class without people saying you need medication...

also *claps* thanks for that Statick

also I can't seem to post because you guys keep posting! XD

Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2012, 08:11:43 PM »
You see sabby I can think of no other way to explain what I mean quickly than to call it faith...

But what I mean, in total, non clipped version...

Faith that existence has a purpose, something that cannot be proven, or disproven. That man can reach a form of inner peace, and understanding, and thus come into harmony with both his fellow man, and the entire universe around him.

"Religion" to me is a manmade doctrinal concept, and not nessary for faith, if it helps you think... go ahead... but not nessary.

When I say there is a diffrence between "Faith" and "Religion" that is what I mean, but try saying that outside church or philophy class without people saying you need medication...

also *claps* thanks for that Statick

also I can't seem to post because you guys keep posting! XD

I think you need a different word then. Such a lovely concept deserves a less ugly word :) I'd say spiritualism, but that's far too vague and carries too much hyperbole. It's almost as undeservedly held up in society as faith, just a word that makes people feel good.

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Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2012, 08:25:43 PM »
I think you need a different word then. Such a lovely concept deserves a less ugly word :) I'd say spiritualism, but that's far too vague and carries too much hyperbole. It's almost as undeservedly held up in society as faith, just a word that makes people feel good.
Exactly... I don't know what to call it.

I don't care what someone's religion is, I'm a christan but so long as someone has this kind of faith, I could care less what doctrine they get there by.
if I said enlightenment I'd sound like some mystic...

even then I don't hate people who don't have this kinda "faith" I just kinda feel sorry and try to be nice

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Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2012, 08:28:39 PM »
Thank you.. better put than I can. I know a LOT of people .. of MANY faiths. I refuse to let the brush of an attitude towards one faith (or anything else) color how I treat them and the people of that faith I've yet to meet.
You're welcome.

My feelings about this are based on something I heard when I was a child from a visiting minister at my grandparent's church.  I've been looking for most of the day for something to explain my attitude.  This is the closest I could come but I'll keep looking.

Am exerpt from that page:
Quote
In his book "Civilization of the Arabs," Dr. Gustav LeBon says, "The reader will find, in my treatment of the Arabs' conquests and the reason of their victories, that force was never a factor in the spread of the Koranic teachings, and that the Arabs left those they had subdued free to exercise their religious beliefs. If it happened that some Christian peoples embraced Islam and adopted Arabic as their language, it was mainly due to the various kinds of justice on the part of the Arab victors, with the like of which the non-Moslems were not acquainted. It was also due to the tolerance and leniency of Islam, which was unknown to the other religions."

Islam is not a culture or religion that only teaches or promotes violence.  The fundamentalism and violence are a result of factors that sought to destroy what was once one of the most tolerant peoples in existence.

Offline Stattick

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2012, 08:37:44 PM »
I don't have a problem with people talking about faith. Faith is simply a belief based on emotion instead of evidence. There can be evidence in support or against the faith that someone has.

For instance, some people have faith that most people, when you really get down to it, are basically good. Others have faith that people are pretty much selfish. There is some evidence that can support either position.

Spirituality is a different thing. It's a belief that there's more to life than just droll existence, and then a final death with nothing beyond. It's having faith that somehow, that this life has meaning. Most people have at least a little fleeting spirituality.

And some people who follow certain philosophical tenants can have a form of spirituality that doesn't really include any supernatural aspects, or a belief of life beyond death. People who hold a code of honor and who belief that it's better to die a final death while serving that code than to live in violation of it. These are the sorts of people who are without faith in the supernatural or religion, but will put their life in jeopardy to help others, even if they don't have to. For instance, selfless atheists who in WWII, helped to hide or smuggle Jews out of harms way instead of just turning them over to the Nazis for extermination. They may have been hardcore atheists, but it could be argued that their morals formed a sort of spirituality, although they'd never use that term themselves. There are also secular Buddhists, who don't believe in any of the supernatural stuff, but try to live their lives in accordance with Buddhist ethics and morals.

Hmm... I've lost my train of thought here, and don't really have a conclusion to include.  :P

Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #82 on: September 28, 2012, 08:42:01 PM »
even then I don't hate people who don't have this kinda "faith" I just kinda feel sorry and try to be nice

Okay, I realize text can make it easy to misunderstand, so I will clarify that there is no affront in what I am about to say, no hidden attack, and no anger. Whatever your answer to my next question is, I will accept it in strides, so please be completely honest.

Do you feel sorry for me?

I have no faith whatsoever, whether it is the textbook kind or the one you just described. The closest you can come to it is that I have faith the sun will rise, and even that is untrue, as I have thousands of days of research on this, and have seen a pattern so predictable I can know beyond a shadow of a doubt when the sun will rise. I can learn the science behind what makes the sun rise, and in doing so, I discover a time may come when the sun will not rise, because the conditions change. Or I can exit these conditions and go to another planet, where a sun cannot rise.

And yet, in my heart, I would expect it to, despite my rational mind knowing better.

That is as close as I come to 'faith'. Do you feel sorry for me, that I believe only what I know to be true? That I don't romanticise concepts before I refine them? That I do not build before I have my foundations?

Please be honest. If you believe the way I think robs me of the magic and wonder of the world, you would be wrong. Removing the mysticism of life has only made it more beautiful.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2012, 08:47:30 PM »
Okay, I realize text can make it easy to misunderstand, so I will clarify that there is no affront in what I am about to say, no hidden attack, and no anger. Whatever your answer to my next question is, I will accept it in strides, so please be completely honest.

Do you feel sorry for me?

I have no faith whatsoever, whether it is the textbook kind or the one you just described. The closest you can come to it is that I have faith the sun will rise, and even that is untrue, as I have thousands of days of research on this, and have seen a pattern so predictable I can know beyond a shadow of a doubt when the sun will rise. I can learn the science behind what makes the sun rise, and in doing so, I discover a time may come when the sun will not rise, because the conditions change. Or I can exit these conditions and go to another planet, where a sun cannot rise.

And yet, in my heart, I would expect it to, despite my rational mind knowing better.

That is as close as I come to 'faith'. Do you feel sorry for me, that I believe only what I know to be true? That I don't romanticise concepts before I refine them? That I do not build before I have my foundations?

Please be honest. If you believe the way I think robs me of the magic and wonder of the world, you would be wrong. Removing the mysticism of life has only made it more beautiful.

Yet you have no problem letting, and accepting, that other folks might see the world differently and through a lens that involves Faith. You don't automaically assume the worse of someone simply because of a title do you?

Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2012, 08:53:16 PM »
Of course not. I admit, there is SPLIT SECOND of lost respect when someone reveals they are religious, but I won't ever let that part of me have a long term say >.< We all have our little biggotries and bias, the only thing we can really do is know that they're there and keep them away from the important parts of our brain.

So no, someone seeing the world through some kind of lens, whether it be mystical or dogmatic, does not change my opinion of them or make me think them below me. It's how they apply those thoughts that will do that :P

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Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2012, 09:06:12 PM »
Okay, I realize text can make it easy to misunderstand, so I will clarify that there is no affront in what I am about to say, no hidden attack, and no anger. Whatever your answer to my next question is, I will accept it in strides, so please be completely honest.

Do you feel sorry for me?

I have no faith whatsoever, whether it is the textbook kind or the one you just described. The closest you can come to it is that I have faith the sun will rise, and even that is untrue, as I have thousands of days of research on this, and have seen a pattern so predictable I can know beyond a shadow of a doubt when the sun will rise. I can learn the science behind what makes the sun rise, and in doing so, I discover a time may come when the sun will not rise, because the conditions change. Or I can exit these conditions and go to another planet, where a sun cannot rise.

And yet, in my heart, I would expect it to, despite my rational mind knowing better.

That is as close as I come to 'faith'. Do you feel sorry for me, that I believe only what I know to be true? That I don't romanticise concepts before I refine them? That I do not build before I have my foundations?

Please be honest. If you believe the way I think robs me of the magic and wonder of the world, you would be wrong. Removing the mysticism of life has only made it more beautiful.

No, no I don't.
because you knowing how the sun rises can't rob you of the ability to enjoy seeing that sun rise in the morning or the idea that some day mankind might be able to make their own suns, afterall, 200 years ago who would have thought we'd step on the moon?

I guess spirituality as Stattick discribes it is more my viewpoint, it just sounds all gushy and mystic, or like a Politically correct cop out out saying "I'm spiritual"

The only people who really get under my skin are the people who say things like "Dude why do you bother with reading... I'm going to go home and get drunk till I pass out." but I think it's more a values clash than anything.

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Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2012, 09:18:39 PM »
also, I'm a bit of a historian myself, and the way I found my spirituality was in love and forgiveness, even if it's not always easy <.< >.>
I'm not always the most observant person, or the sharpest tounge, but at least I try to be understanding

Offline Hemingway

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #87 on: September 29, 2012, 02:22:01 PM »
India was colonized robbed by British Imperialism, they dont act like the Muslim nations. You dont have Hindu's murdering people because one of their gods made it into a Simpsons sketch. You can blame anything you like for the state of the Middle East but that does not change the fact that their faith has core issues that will never disappear they are a violent religion while every other faith just has violent individuals.

In the interest of truth and reason, I feel I have to speak up here. Because this simply does not hold up to scrutiny.

First, while I have no love for Islam, or for any religion, the facts simply do not support the notion that Islam is somehow inherently violent. The texts support violence, but as do many religious texts. Certainly the Bible does. That's not the main problem, though. The main problem is that you conflate the Middle East ( a region that includes North Africa and Western Asia, but not such countries as Iran and Afghanistan, to name but a few ) with "the Islamic world". If Islam is the main factor, why does what we think of as violence carried out by Muslims occur almost exclusively in war-torn parts of the Middle East and Asia?

When you start to examine the facts, the connection between Islam and violence doesn't make sense without also factoring in such conditions as oppression, economic turmoil and histories of conflict. Consider this: If, say, the US was invaded and occupied by a foreign power, and the leading resistance movement happened to be violently Christian, do you not think even moderates would flock to it? It seems more like a nationalism or tribalism that cloaks itself in religion. That said, I don't think it's a coincidence that the countries in question also tend to be more religious than, say, Western Europe. But that, I think, is more likely a coincidence of history, or a consequence of a colonial background, and so on.

There's also a question of how much this is simply a matter of perception. I have no trouble at all imagining an ordinary person in the Middle East or some other Muslim majority country seeing these decade-long wars carried out mainly by the US as being Christian wars. And while they may not be religious wars, they certainly have been carried out by religious people, and I think that says something about their character, the character of their religion, and the depth of their belief. If Christianity were any more a religion of peace, you wouldn't have so many Christians ready to kill, even if it wasn't over a religious matter. There may be a difference in why violence is carried out, although as I explained above I don't think this difference is nearly as large as the media would have us believe, but when it comes down to the facts, there's not significant difference. It's more than a few bad apples.

Online Silk

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #88 on: September 30, 2012, 07:44:22 PM »
When we speak out against religion and argue against it, we are attacking the philosophy not the person. If I argue against the labor party, I'm not attacking you because you vote labor, nore should my opinion be dismissed purely because you don't like holes in your little bubble of perfection you build yourself around a human concept. :) Sorry but religions been getting on my tit lately.

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Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #89 on: September 30, 2012, 10:24:58 PM »
Religion isn't the problem.  People are the problem.  Using religion as an excuse to pursue hegemony is the problem.  People attacking people because they have faith, don't have faith or have a different faith are the problem.

Blame any person who has taken religion, a belief or an atheistic position and twisted it and used it to support their arguments, their greed and their lust.  People who are religious and good are not that way because of religion.  People who are religious and bad aren't that way because of religion.  They are good or bad by choice.  People choose to hate, attack and hurt others.

I am a religious person and I have faith in my God.  Don't attack me or my faith.  I don't attack you.  Don't attack anyone who has faith when they don't attack you.  Allow me the peace to follow my faith as I allow everyone the peace to follow your chosen path.  Don't approach me with anger and hate because I have no anger or hate for you.  When you attack religion, religious people and faith with anger and hate you are no better than the people you describe who misuse religion and faith as the banner they wave going into battle.


Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #90 on: September 30, 2012, 11:51:54 PM »
Beguile, my issue is not with you, its with the organization. The church as a whole. I truly believe it is damaging to society, and is harming many people, worldwide. It should be made to take responsibility and change, and if it won't be reformed, I'd see it removed. Same as any organization.

Have your faith. Its a free country :) I'd never try to take it from you.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #91 on: October 01, 2012, 12:03:06 AM »
Beguile, my issue is not with you, its with the organization. The church as a whole. I truly believe it is damaging to society, and is harming many people, worldwide. It should be made to take responsibility and change, and if it won't be reformed, I'd see it removed. Same as any organization.

Have your faith. Its a free country :) I'd never try to take it from you.

But didn't you just declare war on a faith? I doubt there is a single faith in the world that doesn't harm someone else in their actions. (or damable few.. and none of them are among the 'children of the book' in my opinion)

Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #92 on: October 01, 2012, 12:09:45 AM »
I've done no such thing. The church does not own Beguiles faith, nor does it have a monopoly on anyones hearts and minds. I view it as an organization.

But this topic is about speaking well of those of faith, and I've given my answer. Ill say nice things of Beguile because she's kind and has helped me on the forums and is well spoken :) what she believes does not effect my saying so.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #93 on: October 01, 2012, 12:14:02 AM »
I've done no such thing. The church does not own Beguiles faith, nor does it have a monopoly on anyones hearts and minds. I view it as an organization.

But this topic is about speaking well of those of faith, and I've given my answer. Ill say nice things of Beguile because she's kind and has helped me on the forums and is well spoken :) what she believes does not effect my saying so.

okay.. just trying to see.

I, personally, don't have a lot of faith in organized faiths.. but I know to watch my own bias versus their actions. It can be a very tricky thing to watch out for.

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Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #94 on: October 01, 2012, 12:15:06 AM »
Beguile, my issue is not with you, its with the organization. The church as a whole. I truly believe it is damaging to society, and is harming many people, worldwide. It should be made to take responsibility and change, and if it won't be reformed, I'd see it removed. Same as any organization.

Have your faith. Its a free country :) I'd never try to take it from you.
It's not you.  I don't get the feeling that you come at things from a hateful way.

My issue is with anyone who condemns people who believe and have faith simply because of what the believe.  Having an intolerant attitude toward anyone of faith puts a person on the same level as those they condemn. 


Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #95 on: October 01, 2012, 12:22:19 AM »
On that we agree :)

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Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #96 on: October 01, 2012, 12:30:21 AM »
*hugs you*  Thank you. :-)

Offline Serephino

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #97 on: October 01, 2012, 12:36:12 AM »
When we speak out against religion and argue against it, we are attacking the philosophy not the person. If I argue against the labor party, I'm not attacking you because you vote labor, nore should my opinion be dismissed purely because you don't like holes in your little bubble of perfection you build yourself around a human concept. :) Sorry but religions been getting on my tit lately.

That's just it...  Speaking out against someone's religion in a hateful manner is personal and insulting.  Faith, actual faith, is a very personal thing.  People who only go to church on Sundays out of habit may hear you say that and nod their heads and go about their lives, but someone who is devout is going to feel personally attacked.  I think that's something a lot of Atheists here don't seem to understand.  Me believing there's more to this world than meets the eye doesn't mean I'm stupid or gullible. 

I speak out against extremism.  I'm not a fan of Christianity, but I still have great respect for those who follow the teachings of Jesus, and are actually loving and charitable people.  People get from me as good as they give.  People attack my faith, then get all offended when I write them off as an ignorant jackass.  It's a two-way street. 

Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #98 on: October 01, 2012, 12:49:56 AM »
We understand. We just don't care. We see a harmful system, we say so, and someones offense means nothing to the truth of a matter. If my belief that organized religion will dry up as the human race advances, intellectually and culturally, offends people on a personal level because they are of faith, then in sorry, but your feelings are meaningless and misplaced.

Your free to be offended and try to sway my opinions with facts, but the truth you are injecting yourself into a matter that did not include you.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #99 on: October 01, 2012, 07:37:09 AM »
I actually don't think organized religion is the only problem. Faith is not a virtue. Because even if you assume that all religious bigotry and violence is a result of the dogmatism of organized religion, it's still grounded in faith. Critical thinking, by its very definition, ends with faith. If you're taking something on faith, you've stopped critically examining your particular belief.

That's not to say that all faith is equally bad, but all faith has the potential to be equally bad. If you take god on faith, but you believe in a vague pantheistic god who doesn't meddle in human affairs or the natural order of things, and who demands nothing from us, then you're unlikely to be the one arguing for teaching intelligent design to little children. Much less blowing yourself up. But it does mean you're capable of and willing to believe things on insufficient evidence, which I don't think is something to be celebrated. It can be a perfectly benign thing, but if you believe that there's inherent value in the truth - that whether or not it's true is the most important thing to consider in any proposition - then there's no room for faith.