You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 09, 2016, 09:11:33 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith  (Read 3615 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #100 on: October 01, 2012, 11:04:15 AM »
I actually don't think organized religion is the only problem. Faith is not a virtue. Because even if you assume that all religious bigotry and violence is a result of the dogmatism of organized religion, it's still grounded in faith. Critical thinking, by its very definition, ends with faith. If you're taking something on faith, you've stopped critically examining your particular belief.

That's not to say that all faith is equally bad, but all faith has the potential to be equally bad. If you take god on faith, but you believe in a vague pantheistic god who doesn't meddle in human affairs or the natural order of things, and who demands nothing from us, then you're unlikely to be the one arguing for teaching intelligent design to little children. Much less blowing yourself up. But it does mean you're capable of and willing to believe things on insufficient evidence, which I don't think is something to be celebrated. It can be a perfectly benign thing, but if you believe that there's inherent value in the truth - that whether or not it's true is the most important thing to consider in any proposition - then there's no room for faith.

I'm glad this was brought up. I thought for a while about saying similar, but I doubted my ability to convey it. You've said it much better then I would have. You could also say that organized religion is more a symptom of faith then anything, but I look at reforming the Church as the only viable option in my lifetime. Faith is something we'll have until society ascends, and if we should ever regress through some event, it'll come right back, and with it the foundations for another Megachurch.

Offline Stattick

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #101 on: October 01, 2012, 02:17:23 PM »
I actually don't think organized religion is the only problem. Faith is not a virtue. Because even if you assume that all religious bigotry and violence is a result of the dogmatism of organized religion, it's still grounded in faith. Critical thinking, by its very definition, ends with faith. If you're taking something on faith, you've stopped critically examining your particular belief.

That's not to say that all faith is equally bad, but all faith has the potential to be equally bad. If you take god on faith, but you believe in a vague pantheistic god who doesn't meddle in human affairs or the natural order of things, and who demands nothing from us, then you're unlikely to be the one arguing for teaching intelligent design to little children. Much less blowing yourself up. But it does mean you're capable of and willing to believe things on insufficient evidence, which I don't think is something to be celebrated. It can be a perfectly benign thing, but if you believe that there's inherent value in the truth - that whether or not it's true is the most important thing to consider in any proposition - then there's no room for faith.

I understand the sentiment, but I have to disagree. The kind of spiritualism that I practice doesn't involve mindlessly adhering to any religious dogma or brainwashing. What I've found is true for me is that answers, wisdom, and peace come from within. It doesn't come from some book that was written three thousand years ago by some nomadic shepherds wandering the desert. The thing about finding guidance within, from accepting that you know something that you cannot possibly know, is that over time, what you accept as knowledge and truth from within may change. It may reverse position on some issues. In other words, its fluid and reactionary to the world. It teaches you to be tolerant of others, because you personally know that truth is mutable. You know that what's true for you may be false for another. You don't get that from a book.

The other thing is that critical thinking and faith do not have to enemies or opposites. At the best of times, the two peacefully coexist within me, agreeing. At times though, they disagree. That's always a sign to be cautious, that you're on shaky ground somehow. It's not always something that can be solved right away. At other times, it's just a matter of introspection to figure out what the source of discord is, and to do a meta analysis to try to figure out if it's your belief that's wrong, or your critical thinking has been built on something that seems logical, but contains fallacies that invalidate the conclusion. It also depends on how important the issue is. Sometimes you don't have time for introspection and meta analysis, and you have to make a decision now. Your eyes and experience tell you that it's fine to get in the elevator with that coworker, but for some reason your instincts are screaming to keep your distance. In that case, I'd risk being in error by being cautious, and following my instincts. Sometimes my instincts are stupid, sometimes they lead me awry, but there have been cases where I've been able to verify that they kept me out of danger. But when I follow my instincts despite what my reason tells me, I accept that I might be acting irrationally - or maybe my actions are fully reasonable, but that there's a string of clues that were too subtle for my conscious mind to recognize, but in some deeper subconscious, the clues have been seen and an alarm has been raised and sent forward to my consciousness.

Now, I agree that some people can be blindly faithful. I agree that some people can use faith instead of logic, and that in some people, that two can be opposites that do not interact. But just because some people put their faith in the wrong things, in ancient books, in other people, in religious dogma, in external things, doesn't mean that everyone does, and doesn't invalidate the idea that wisdom and knowledge can come from within. Both methods, gazing within, and looking to the outer world can be used for the same goal, of understanding yourself and your world. And if they're used correctly, they can be used in conjunction with each other, working together on the same problems. Einstein describes how he discovered the theory of relativity as something akin to an inner vision. He was at one point in the universe, and went straight forward at incredible speeds... but it always brought him back to his starting point in time. He intuited that time and space were intertwined, and that nothing was faster than light. The rest, he used logic and math to build, seeing how the number interacted with each other. After intuiting, he spent months (or was it years?) writing everything up, and playing with the numbers and formulas before publishing. At the time, most people thought Einstein's ideas were intriguing, but probably mad, and certainly without evidence that supported them except for some elegant math. And of course, as the decades tick down, we've found more than ample evidence that Einstein was right. But don't forget, he came to his discovery by looking within. He proved it by applying logic.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #102 on: October 01, 2012, 02:36:32 PM »
Faith is part of almost everything in human life.  Perhaps not faith in a divine being, but almost every person has faith in some aspect of their lives.  Everyone believes in something without the critical evidence to back up their assumption.  Without the ability to operate without absolute certainty then people would simply stop to function and act.  People have faith in their leaders, faith in their way of life, faith in their neighbors and so on.  The study of economics easily reveals how much simple belief and faith in the non-existent are required to make the global system function properly.  Faith keeps people moving, keeps them pushing forward despite adversity and suffering.  This is a powerful force that has done much good and bad, still is doing much good and bad in the world.  Faith is not a disease with symptoms, but a gift that needs to be used wisely.

There is not a classic war of critical thinking and faith as many would believe.  Many of the greatest minds in human history were religious minds, some even among the clergy of various religions.  Powerful moments in human history were marked with both faith and religion working together.  Our society cannot ascend as Sabby put it without acknowledging an integral part of being human, which is that we believe in things that are not readily apparent or supported.  How can we rise if we cut away most of the people in the society.

Also, how do you intend to reform the Church when you do not care about the opinion or feelings of anyone that is religious or faithful?  To state that you understand but don’t care is an extremely heartless statement.  To say that people’s feelings are meaningless is an ignorant statement of someone that does not care to learn or understand another person.  Faith and religion are personal parts of a person and their discussion should take that into consideration.  That part of someone is an opportunity for dialogue, not heartless posturing.  To further say that fact won’t sway your opinion only lends toward that image of the ignorant and dogmatic.  Much as people accuse the faithful of being.

Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #103 on: October 01, 2012, 02:47:40 PM »
I knew that would come up. Your confusing Religion with religious once more. When I say I do not care of someone's feelings, I am saying that how they feel do not change what is true. If someone commits a crime, removing that person from society will greatly impact on some people. But will it change my opinion on the persons guilt? No. Will it change their sentence? No.

Should we go easier on a Mafia because they have wives and husbands and children and friends who will be stricken with grief at seeing their loved ones removed for their crimes? No, we should not. Should we do so for any organization, no matter their position in society? No.

Peoples FEELINGS do not alter reality. Reality is not a consensus. Many organized Religions have been due for reform for a very long time, and they're never going to be made to answer for themselves if we keep approaching the topic like a hornets nest just because it's 'spiritual to many'. If that makes me cold and heartless, then we seem to value different priorities. If people want to mistake my opinion on an organization as one of their own personal faith, they are self inserting, and assuming I'd take their ability to feel from them. Which is ridiculous :P I won't take blame for sensitive minds perceiving invisible attacks.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #104 on: October 01, 2012, 03:12:34 PM »
Faith is part of almost everything in human life.  Perhaps not faith in a divine being, but almost every person has faith in some aspect of their lives.  Everyone believes in something without the critical evidence to back up their assumption.  Without the ability to operate without absolute certainty then people would simply stop to function and act.  People have faith in their leaders, faith in their way of life, faith in their neighbors and so on.  The study of economics easily reveals how much simple belief and faith in the non-existent are required to make the global system function properly.  Faith keeps people moving, keeps them pushing forward despite adversity and suffering.  This is a powerful force that has done much good and bad, still is doing much good and bad in the world.  Faith is not a disease with symptoms, but a gift that needs to be used wisely.

There is not a classic war of critical thinking and faith as many would believe.  Many of the greatest minds in human history were religious minds, some even among the clergy of various religions.  Powerful moments in human history were marked with both faith and religion working together.  Our society cannot ascend as Sabby put it without acknowledging an integral part of being human, which is that we believe in things that are not readily apparent or supported.  How can we rise if we cut away most of the people in the society.

Also, how do you intend to reform the Church when you do not care about the opinion or feelings of anyone that is religious or faithful?  To state that you understand but don’t care is an extremely heartless statement.  To say that people’s feelings are meaningless is an ignorant statement of someone that does not care to learn or understand another person.  Faith and religion are personal parts of a person and their discussion should take that into consideration.  That part of someone is an opportunity for dialogue, not heartless posturing.  To further say that fact won’t sway your opinion only lends toward that image of the ignorant and dogmatic.  Much as people accuse the faithful of being.

This is the problem with terms like 'faith'; it's a hugely loaded word. Yes, people work off 'faith', but not in the same way as a religious person, in most cases.

For example, if I'm dating a girl and we've been together five years. I believe she's not cheating on me. Is this faith in the same sense of religion? No. I've been with my this girl for five years, she's still with me and I have no reason to believe she's cheated on me. Therefore, it makes sense to assume that (at this moment in time), she isn't cheating on me. However, if this same girl has cheated on me several times? Yes, you're operating more on the logic of religious faith; you've got proof that your girlfriend is prone to not remaining faithful, so to wholeheartedly believe that 'She won't do it again' is hopeful thinking. People normally put their 'faith' into things due to past experiences, reasonable outcomes from reasonable expectations. And yes, faith does push people onwards; when you consider what a lot of faiths preach, are you sure that's what you want? Westboro Baptist Church is pushed forward by their hatred of sinners and homosexuals preached by their faith. The Pope preaches immorality and horrid atroscities because he believes an invisible man speaks through him. Religion, however, has not done good; people have done good. A man who is a Christian who helps another man out doesn't prove that Christianity is a good, moral system. It proves that this -man- is a good, moral person. Just like Stalin doesn't prove that Atheism is a cult of personality creating machine.

Also, a lot of large examples of religious good are actually huge evils; look at Mother Teresa, who is revered as a great woman of care and medicine, who actually put people through more suffering, stole their money and greated a cult of suffering and convincing people to embrace their suffering, rather than helping them to develop. My own religious beliefs has similar; the Dalai Llama, a huge advocate of peace, harmony and good will? Given money by the CIA to form militia training camps and, when in power, lived as a king amongst a people who were forced into peasantry to sustain this. Punishments from this regime included eye gouging, burnings, etc.

Lots of great minds were religious, sure. But, to me, this is a product of the times; religion is a huge filter on a person's world view, just like sex and colour was. If you weren't a Christian, good luck being accepted or being paid any mind. There's an entire movement (The Clergy Project) devoted to helping those within the faith who've lost their belief get jobs and fit back in with non-religious communities, as they're stuck within their religion for fear of not being able to support themselves or find social circles outside of it. However, just because we can explain one portion of something, it doesn't mean we can explain another, where religion finds itself; the Greeks knew the world was round. That didn't stop them believing a chariot pulled the sun across the sky, because they had no clue on how the sun circled the Earth.

One major part of reformation, for me, would be completely abolishing any idea that religion is anything different than any other organization. I believe they should be taxed. They should also be made to answer for the problems they cause, and promptly called out for it - if any other person went to countries and preaching death sentences to Africans (Don't use condoms, they don't stop HIV!), would they get away with it? If people had proof of mass child sex offenses and cover-ups within a business (The Vatican), would they be allowed to just keep doing it?

As Sabs said, your feelings in situations have no value. It has nothing to do with your feelings. It may upset some pastors that, say, they have to pay taxes, but paying faxes and bills also makes me sad. Does that mean I get a break from it, if I don't feel like paying and talk to an imaginary friend?

Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #105 on: October 01, 2012, 03:36:15 PM »
Thank you Ryu. You seemed to understand on the first go.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #106 on: October 01, 2012, 03:53:58 PM »
I find it so strange that a thread with the suggestion that everyone should just be nice to each other for a change has turned into such a heated exchange of why we shouldn't be nice to 'those other folks'.

Just saying.

Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #107 on: October 01, 2012, 04:04:27 PM »
I thought I was pretty clear the first time. I'm nice to folks who are nice folks. But apparently whenever I talk about concepts people may have, I'm talking about the person with the concept :P My choices are linger on the topic until the misunderstanding is clarified or drop it entirely, and I find that extremely unfair. I haven't said a single unkind thing about any individual or suggested that anyone treat someone differently for their beliefs.

I've gone to lengths to clarify just the opposite. If I have to go any simpler then that you'll be hearing monosyllables from me.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #108 on: October 01, 2012, 04:12:42 PM »
It is a bit of a misconception; people arn't hating on each other. Just like I'm not going to like someone -because- of their faith, I'm not going to dislike someone because of their faith. It doesn't stop me pointing out the that a belief system is flawed, immoral or causing harm.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #109 on: October 01, 2012, 04:59:53 PM »
Faith is part of almost everything in human life.  Perhaps not faith in a divine being, but almost every person has faith in some aspect of their lives.  Everyone believes in something without the critical evidence to back up their assumption.  Without the ability to operate without absolute certainty then people would simply stop to function and act.  People have faith in their leaders, faith in their way of life, faith in their neighbors and so on.

I don't think that's actually true. Your proposition lacks, appropriately enough, evidence. Of the ones you mentioned, only the last is really true of me. And that's only because experience tells me that my neighbors can be trusted. Which means that it's not faith. And the list could go on. Your claim simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

The study of economics easily reveals how much simple belief and faith in the non-existent are required to make the global system function properly.

It's funny you should mention faith in the economy, since blind faith and people willing to take advantage of it is more or less the entire reason we're in such deep economic trouble right now. Strangely, that particular faith not be as far from religious faith as the examples you gave above.

Faith keeps people moving, keeps them pushing forward despite adversity and suffering.  This is a powerful force that has done much good and bad, still is doing much good and bad in the world.  Faith is not a disease with symptoms, but a gift that needs to be used wisely.

In the words of Bertrand Russell:

Quote from: Bertrand Russell
When you are studying any matter, or considering any philosophy, ask yourself only: What are the facts, and what is the truth that the facts bear out. Never let yourself be diverted, either by what you wish to believe, or what you think could have beneficent social effects if it were believed; but look only and solely at what are the facts.

That's my view as well. Whether or not something is helpful to someone has no bearing on whether or not it's true. And if you think that whether or not it's helpful is more important than if it's true, then we can end the discussion right now, because we're simply not going to agree.

The other thing is that critical thinking and faith do not have to enemies or opposites.

But they are. By their very definition, they are. To think critically is to ask questions, to approach them rationally, and base your judgment on the evidence you have. If the evidence is lacking, you withhold judgment. That's the opposite of what faith is, namely belief on insufficient or entirely lacking evidence. To take something on faith is to stop asking questions, to abandon your critical faculties, and essentially to declare that the facts don't matter.

That's really the most important thing I wanted to talk about in your post, and since this post is already getting quite long, I'll end it at that. If there's something else of great importance you feel I failed to address, just let me know.

Online Silk

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #110 on: October 01, 2012, 06:32:34 PM »
I'll dismiss and attack anyone who has a largely toxic and volatile belief system that serves little purpose anymore besides to support their opinions with some kind of athority. Shame religion is one of those systems, as is anti-sematism, neo-feminism, or any of the sort, stop feeling entitled because your part of a long list of suspects that is damaging to society in some fashion. People take heart in their religion, I know someone who takes solace in being a racist bigot, but he donates to charity and does some charity work, does that absolve him of his toxic world veiw? Hell no.

Disclaimer: If you don't like this statement and think that it's hurt your feelings, remeber that people try endlessly to cater to your need of not having your feeling hurt, yet get told their hurting them anyway, eventually people like me will have enough and stop trying to pander to your feelings and just tell you exactly what they think.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 06:37:22 PM by Silk »

Offline Stattick

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #111 on: October 01, 2012, 07:45:21 PM »

The other thing is that critical thinking and faith do not have to enemies or opposites.

But they are. By their very definition, they are. To think critically is to ask questions, to approach them rationally, and base your judgment on the evidence you have. If the evidence is lacking, you withhold judgment. That's the opposite of what faith is, namely belief on insufficient or entirely lacking evidence. To take something on faith is to stop asking questions, to abandon your critical faculties, and essentially to declare that the facts don't matter.

That's really the most important thing I wanted to talk about in your post, and since this post is already getting quite long, I'll end it at that. If there's something else of great importance you feel I failed to address, just let me know.

As I said before, there are different kinds of faith, and different definitions for it. Some people have faith and logic, and place logic above faith. There are all kinds of different ways that faith and logic can interact in a given person. It's incredibly unfair to lump all people of faith into a single group of 'irrational believers', and it doesn't match up with the real world either. For instance, in the US, most scientists and doctors are some variety of Christian. Yet for most of them, their faith does not impede science, research, or making discoveries. Most doctors will prescribe birth control, regardless of what their denomination says about it. Most surgeons would endorse a woman getting an abortion to save her life, regardless of what the fundamentalist loons say about it. Geologists, paleontologists, and others gladly build on the scientific data we have, instead of blindly clinging to the idea that Jehovah created the world in seven days a few thousand years ago. In the vast majority of cases, I don't see these people's faith getting in the way of their reason.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #112 on: October 01, 2012, 07:53:19 PM »
But they are. By their very definition, they are. To think critically is to ask questions, to approach them rationally, and base your judgment on the evidence you have. If the evidence is lacking, you withhold judgment. That's the opposite of what faith is, namely belief on insufficient or entirely lacking evidence. To take something on faith is to stop asking questions, to abandon your critical faculties, and essentially to declare that the facts don't matter.

That's really the most important thing I wanted to talk about in your post, and since this post is already getting quite long, I'll end it at that. If there's something else of great importance you feel I failed to address, just let me know.


As I said before, there are different kinds of faith, and different definitions for it. Some people have faith and logic, and place logic above faith. There are all kinds of different ways that faith and logic can interact in a given person. It's incredibly unfair to lump all people of faith into a single group of 'irrational believers', and it doesn't match up with the real world either. For instance, in the US, most scientists and doctors are some variety of Christian. Yet for most of them, their faith does not impede science, research, or making discoveries. Most doctors will prescribe birth control, regardless of what their denomination says about it. Most surgeons would endorse a woman getting an abortion to save her life, regardless of what the fundamentalist loons say about it. Geologists, paleontologists, and others gladly build on the scientific data we have, instead of blindly clinging to the idea that Jehovah created the world in seven days a few thousand years ago. In the vast majority of cases, I don't see these people's faith getting in the way of their reason.

From what I recall of the numbers, scientists tend to be towards 70% Atheist or non-believers - but I heard that from somewhere, so I have no source. 30% of scientists having faith is still a pretty hefty number, though.

However, when it comes to the doctors? That point doesn't really make any sense. Even if they didn't want to, they have to because remember that little thing about how your religious beliefs can't impede your work? Especially in America, where one of the ideals the country was built on is your religion does not apply to anything you do if it affects people? Someone did try not proscribing birth control in a story if I recall, because of his religious beliefs, and was promptly sued to Hell and back. I'd love to see what would happen if a Jehovah's Witness practicing medicine came up to his patient and said "Well, we could save your life, but I think transfusing blood to you would make you a dirty sinner, so I'm just going to let you die."

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #113 on: October 01, 2012, 07:56:56 PM »
wow five pages.

that is my personal best for starting a political / religious thread, its interesting to see others views on this.

I think we MUST be getting SOMEWHERE, regardless of the tensions between groups of people now, it was a lot worse in the past, we are becoming more peaceful and less confrontational generally, as far as frequency of wars anyway) Just seems frustrating we are not already there.

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #114 on: October 01, 2012, 07:57:20 PM »
Enough. General observation: the original poster was looking to create a positive atmosphere. Stopping in here by to catalog the failings of belief systems you don't like does not, oddly enough, do that. So don't.

The thread can stay polite & respectful or be locked. Your choice.

Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #115 on: October 01, 2012, 09:15:28 PM »
Okay guys. Should we be nicer to a person of Muslim faith on principle? A yes or no shall do.

Online Oreo

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #116 on: October 01, 2012, 10:18:48 PM »
I can't do a simple yes or no. But, I will make it as short as possible. Love and kindness starts with me, so yes.

Offline Sabby

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #117 on: October 01, 2012, 10:34:38 PM »
I can't do a simple yes or no. But, I will make it as short as possible.

That's my point. The question is malformed, but I've given as thorough an answer as I can considering. So I'm going to remove myself until the question changes.

Offline Ironwolf85

  • Eletronic Scribe of naughty things.
  • Lord
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Location: New England Somewhere I won't tell you
  • Gender: Male
  • Here to have fun, Role play, and maybe get laid
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #118 on: October 01, 2012, 10:41:47 PM »
I am in with oreo, I've seen many good people of faith in my life, and I think everyone should be embraced with open arms.
I'd welcome the day a muslim, christan, and hindu walk into a bar after work, the muslim orders a coffie (drink is against his faith) and the three of them laugh and jibe each other much as you would at a football game.
I have a hindu dentist... he's cool.

Also the 70% athiesim rate for scientists, that EU demographics, not the US. In the states it's more a 40/60 split in favor of faith.

You should see other heated stuff, like the fight in New England over red socks and yankees, or East side of a city VS West side of a city. I think it comes from the same "my tribe is better" instinct we have left over from the old days. Tribal divisions haven't done africa any favors, so I say we relax about it.

I also believe the westbrougho baptsits get more media attention than a clinic or church community center in one of LA's poorer areas that gets kids off drugs or teaches them a way out of the gang life. Unless of course the clinic gets robbed or firebombed, then it gets on the news.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

  • Time flies like an arrow ~ Fruit flies like a banana ~ Elliquiy's Fair-E Godmother
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Location: Faeleacanvald ~ The Steeler Nation ~ Home of Lord Stanley's Cup 2016 ~ She won't stay throwed! ~ 48\22-5\1\11-5\7
  • Gender: Female
  • Perpetual Notion Machine ~ 'What if...?'
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #119 on: October 01, 2012, 10:55:19 PM »
Okay guys. Should we be nicer to a person of Muslim faith on principle? A yes or no shall do.

Nicer? No.  Just as nice, just as good, just as respectful?  Yes.

There is a hymn that is sung in my church but was also used in the movie "Independence Day."  The first line is:

Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me.

Ii treat everyone the same.  That promotes peace.

Offline KateTopic starter

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #120 on: October 01, 2012, 11:51:48 PM »
Yes.

(My own subject reasoning: A baby step for me towards un-condtional love, for ME to spiritually grow I feel its a good road to start a journey on)

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #121 on: October 03, 2012, 12:56:48 PM »
Emotions and feelings have a great deal to do with reality.  People live and die based on emotions.  Countries are toppled by what feelings they can invoke in another nation’s populace and in their own people.  When confidence is high inside a nation’s borders there is a surge of productivity and benefits to the economy and to social welfare.  The same goes for when there are good feelings and emotions inside the workplace.  People’s lifespans increase based on their emotions and feelings, their healing process in the hospital shortens if they are feeling good and have positive energy.  Emotions and feelings most certainly affect reality.  If atheists seek to foster change in the religious community, then caring about their emotions would have an effect on their progress.

Scientific scrutiny has upheld that belief does guide human interaction and assumption oils the machine of social welfare and government.  Research into authority figures (i.e. police officers, medical personnel, higher ranking soldiers) has shown the effectiveness of their presence simply because people feel a boost to confidence and a belief in the abilities of that figure.  Erwin Goffman did a great deal of research about social cues and interactions whereby belief in various symbols affected the interaction of two people.  Symbolism in society is another field that discusses how belief in various cues and objects affects people.  Institutions have the faith of people such as the Supreme Court.  Once judgment is based down from the Supreme Court, the majority of people accept that judgment.  They may not like the judgment, but they accept the judgment.

Also, stating that my points do not hold up to scrutiny and then contending that blind faith lead to economic collapse seems a poor choice.  Economy did fail through bad faith, but at the same time was created by faith and belief.  Credit and currency are two prime examples of this belief.  Faith has been betrayed in the recent economic collapse, leading to a great many reforms and restructures in an attempt to restore faith and confidence in the system.  Economics affects all aspects of society.

As for the discussion on helpful and truth, we can end that discussion then I suppose.  In my opinion a useful and helpful tool does not lose value because the item does not work as people imagined. 

Not sure where this disdain for Mother Teresa is coming from at this time.  Second person to bring that up and with very little supporting evidence or statement.  I went looking for this evidence and found nothing but people who did not understand the inner workings of medicine discussing this topic.

I also don’t think that taxing religious structures and groups would have the affect people think it would on those structures and people.

Doctors can write and not write whatever prescriptions they feel are necessary.  Just as a patient can seek a second opinion from another physician and have their healthcare performed elsewhere.  Birth control for the purpose of preventing pregnancy is not considered a medical emergency to where a physician must treat on the spot.  Unless the woman had some other sort of issue going on such as a hormonal problem causing her pain and/or distress that would be fixed by a birth control pill, the physician is under no obligation to write that prescription.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #122 on: October 03, 2012, 01:15:04 PM »
I'd like to see some reputable sources on the 'Mother Teresa' and 'Dalai Lama' allegations as well.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #123 on: October 03, 2012, 01:28:11 PM »
You're right; emotions and feelings do have a great deal to do with reality. Without them, we'd be dead. It's that subconcious worry of our species and the enjoyment we get from sex which makes us want to have sex, it's our love for our country, our friends and family that make us want to fight against dictatorship and percieved wrongs.

However, in the sense you're describing them? Feelings don't change anything. Say I have a friend who has cancer. They refuse to go to the hospital out of fear. There's a good chance they could survive this horrid disease. I have the choice of patting her on the head and giving her a cuddle, making her feel nice and happy, or I can tell her that no, you need to buck up, get down to that hospital now and stop being a pussy, because if you do nothing, that dirty thing inside of you is going to kill you? Ignoring and hugging a problem doesn't make it go away. Reassuring someone, and telling them they're right for not getting their arm set back in place when it's broke doesn't cause it to correct itself; it causes it to permanently warp and set in a painful, horrid way. Ignorance doesn't solve anything.

Once again, you're making the disconnect between the idea of a belief, and the idea of religious belief, which are two hugely different entities - I can have a belief that, say, Obama is the best thing for America. People can produce evidence for, or against that. I -believe- that the big bang theory is the most likely cause for the creation of our universe. Is this the same as believing the world was made by God? No. "This two thousand year book says he did" is basing your belief on something with no proof, and the hope that it's right. My belief in how the world was made was founded on brilliant minds working for centuries to piece together the puzzle which is beginning of life.

This point I've already covered. Faith, and the idea of religious faith are two seperate things. You can have faith in your friend doing well in their test.

A good source for Mother Teresa's horrid dealings can be found in the Missionary Position (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Missionary_Position), and if you're not that into reading something so hefty, check out the Penn and Teller Bullshit! Episode "Holier than Thou" (Penn and Teller - Holier Than Thou (Full Episode)). It has a layman summary of the wrongs revered religious figures have willingly caused.

And you're right, it most likely wouldn't. But the idea of not taxing religion is on the assumption that they provide a service to the world - one which they don't, and the few they do which could be served better in a secular setting.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Speak good of Muslims and those of any faith
« Reply #124 on: October 03, 2012, 02:13:39 PM »
Yes, but calling a cancer patient a pussy is not likely to motivate them to seek out medical treatment.  Once more, her emotions of fear for what will come are sustained so that she does not seek medical treatment.  Even when she seeks treatment her fear is sustained so that the treatment will be harder for her than on someone who had a positive discussion with their friend.  Support, reassurance, discussion and alleviation of negative emotions produce better outcomes.  A glance at a nursing diagnosis book will reveal as much. 

A book by one of the leaders of “fundamentalist atheism” and a television show that calls one of their guests from the Catholic League a “fucker.”  These are the sources from which you draw these claims?  I am at a loss for why people are not boycotting the sainthood of Mother Teresa.

Believing in the Big Bang Theory also does not dismiss someone’s belief that God made the world.  Once more there is a pitting of religion against science that is not necessary or true.  My separation of faith in religion and faith in “everything else” is due to the statements of Hemmingway on faith and critical thought.

I would say that religious groups do a lot of charitable good in the world that is not supported by the secular entities.  Schools, hospitals, construction of homes and introduction of modern thought and tools are all things spread by religion.  Religious institutions have also pushed for minorities to vote in democratic nations, supported and established community centers for impoverished urban areas and supported the civil rights movement of the United States.