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Author Topic: Vote No Evil 2012  (Read 4935 times)

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Offline AndyZTopic starter

Vote No Evil 2012
« on: April 16, 2012, 05:13:36 AM »
If you need to have it explained why you're voting for the lesser evil between Democrats and Republicans, this thread probably isn't for you.  However, if you're like me, you're sick of having to choose between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

I was going to wait until we were closer to the election before posting this, but I'm insomnia-cranky enough to go for it now.  Here's my plan for trying to fix this:

Find someone within your state who you trust but who's going to cancel your vote.

If you're going to hold your nose and vote for Obama, find someone who's going to hold their nose and vote for Romney.  Make sure that you're in the same state, and if your state divides up the electoral college by region, you want to be in the same region as well.

Both of you vote for another party.

This is where the "trust" aspect comes in.  Both of you vote for someone other than Democrat or Republican.  This can be Libertarian party, Socialist party, Toga party, whatever.  Vote for who you really want, not the lesser evil.  If you don't really trust the person, maybe you can both vote absentee, showing each other the ballots.

Because of the way the electoral college works, you effectively haven't wasted your vote any more than you would have otherwise.  In most states, the victor gets the spoils, but no matter how many people do this, both the Democrat and Republican candidates lose an equal number of votes.

Although it would arguably be easier just to have both people not vote, I don't think that would give the right message.  We already have atrociously low voting participation in this country.  I want the numbers to spike on the other parties and show that we have more choices, that we're not just the unthinking slaves of the biggest and evilest.

Get the non-voters to vote third party also.

There's a lot of people who don't want either Democrat or Republican, who aren't going to vote because it doesn't make a difference.  We need to get them in on this too.  If we all start doing this, it'll be our chance to get out of the two-party trap.



In 2012, we'll be lucky to get 10,000 people willing to do this.  If people like the idea, they can start spreading it through Facebook and similar methods.  Now, 10,000 by itself isn't going to seem like a lot, but people will notice.  Commentators will have heard of this movement and mention how we got a decent number of people, and we continue to get others interested.

In 2014, we keep this up.  House Representatives are by county and Senators are by state, but the method works the same.  Only now, people are familiar with the concept.  When we have more than just a few congresspeople who aren't either Democrat or Republican, we can start actually fixing this country.

By 2016, maybe the idea's taken off, maybe not.  The brilliant part is that you lose NOTHING by trying it.  Normally, third-party candidates take votes away from the candidate who they're most like, but if your vote would've been canceled anyway, your vote is now free to give it to the person who deserves it.

Anyone who likes this idea is free to spread it.  If you see an honest mistake of mine which would hamper the idea, please let me know and I'll fix it up.

If you think the idea could work but that we'll never get enough people to make a difference, please don't bother posting.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 09:02:14 PM »
Not voting for the lesser of two evils may give us the greater of two evils.  I am not willing to take that chance.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 09:42:51 PM »
I prefer to encourage everyone I know to vote. To do at least a 'little' reading and listening of their own, and off of channels they normally listen to.

Offline Reno

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 11:59:59 AM »
I'm not convinced that the third parties are any less evil than the Republicrats, though, so it seems to me that this idea is flawed on it's face.

Near as I figure it, you can't denounce one evil without supporting the other, and it was set up intentionally so. And since we're gonna get screwed either way, I might as well just save the gas, unless there's an important non-election issue on the ballot (last time was 2008, but the homophobic rednecks got it passed anyway, thus ending my donations to any local charities).

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 02:06:38 PM »
You know.. the reason I push everyone to vote is this.

More voters = more people in the process. If more people get involved, more will (eventually) start asking why their elected officials lied about X,Y, and Z. More people skews the old classic structure.

A 3rd party surge would skew the current locked dynamic and the two parties would look to see what they want in return for 'playing' the game. Not an ideal solution but either by drawing discussion from one party, or encouraging the two parties to compromise and dialog, this could make things work the way they supposed to.

Breaking the rigid partisan attitude of BOTH parties is needed. Right now we got an extreme majority in one house of congress, but eventually things will balance back out. Both parties suffer from chronic 'head up their ass' syndrome in their leadership.  A handful of independent or third party politicians, particularly in a more balanced congress could force them to dialog.

 

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 05:35:08 PM »
Eeeek... Michele Bachman stumping for a 'role' in building up the gender divide for Romney.. EVIL!!!!

Offline Sophronius

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 09:38:26 PM »
I'm not sure our voter turnout is really that terrible during general elections.  Wikipedia says it's 63%, which isn't that bad.  And if you consider how much lower it was just two decades ago, that's a real improvement.  I mean, four years ago, over 131 million people voted and eight years ago over 122 million people voted.  If 10,000 people do what you're suggesting, that would be less than one ten thousandth of the votes cast.  And if you consider how many people already vote for "3rd" parties, 1,623,550 last election, 10,000 more would only be a 0.6% increase.  Which is a pretty small increase, all things considered.

Callie del Noire is right - partisan rigidity is a greater danger than a two party system.  As well as people like Michele Bachmann.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 09:50:16 PM »
I'm not sure our voter turnout is really that terrible during general elections.  Wikipedia says it's 63%, which isn't that bad.  And if you consider how much lower it was just two decades ago, that's a real improvement.  I mean, four years ago, over 131 million people voted and eight years ago over 122 million people voted.  If 10,000 people do what you're suggesting, that would be less than one ten thousandth of the votes cast.  And if you consider how many people already vote for "3rd" parties, 1,623,550 last election, 10,000 more would only be a 0.6% increase.  Which is a pretty small increase, all things considered.

Callie del Noire is right - partisan rigidity is a greater danger than a two party system.  As well as people like Michele Bachmann.

Compare US voter turn out to turn out in other democratic countries. Check out the list lower down the right side of your Wiki link. Most of the European countries EASILY cap out 10% or higher than us.

The last election, to me, was a good thing. It's possibly the first time since the Nixon election (Pre-Watergate) that we've crossed the 68% range among African-American voters and one of the few times we've been seen north of 65% since Kennedy ran for office.

Offline Sophronius

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2012, 06:16:54 AM »
I know that as per that chart, our voter turnour is awful in comparison, but the information in the chart is almost 20 years old and voter turnout has been on the rise for those 20 years.  And I don't know what voting trends in other countries look like, so I figured it was best not to mention comparatives.

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Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2012, 08:25:08 AM »
Why even bother to vote? It's not like your opinion matters since the popular vote never got anyone elected. And Florida will always be there to screw us all.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2012, 09:34:26 AM »
Why even bother to vote? It's not like your opinion matters since the popular vote never got anyone elected. And Florida will always be there to screw us all.

 With that attitude, why have a vote at all then?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2012, 09:54:02 AM »
I know that as per that chart, our voter turnour is awful in comparison, but the information in the chart is almost 20 years old and voter turnout has been on the rise for those 20 years.  And I don't know what voting trends in other countries look like, so I figured it was best not to mention comparatives.

Thing is.  The US vote at least is worse. The voters are the percentages of REGISTERED voters, not US Citzens ELIGIBLE to register to vote. Depending on the source you look at, only about HALF of the public bothers to register. Which means for example the 63% of the 2008 turn out is something like 31.1% in actuality. I helped to register voters in 2 of my commands and even in the military I'd say 1 in 3 hadn't bothered to register. EVER.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2012, 09:54:36 AM »
With that attitude, why have a vote at all then?

Well, he does have a point.  Truth be told, we will never get a Presidential candidate elected who is not loyal to the megacorps (the people who actually run America regardless of who is elected--Obama and Congress are just front men).  Why?  The Electoral College.  You can bet that if a populist did manage to make it through the process without taking a bullet and getting dragged from the river a week later, the Electoral College would be gamed to block him or her there.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2012, 11:07:33 AM »
Well, he does have a point.  Truth be told, we will never get a Presidential candidate elected who is not loyal to the megacorps (the people who actually run America regardless of who is elected--Obama and Congress are just front men).  Why?  The Electoral College.  You can bet that if a populist did manage to make it through the process without taking a bullet and getting dragged from the river a week later, the Electoral College would be gamed to block him or her there.

You are being overly cynical. It's harder to do it than in the past. Too many groups, too much transparency. My brother has been part of the College twice. You're not as free to vote as you think. The party won't just simply let you 'vote your conscience'.

Granted getting there is hard. Just look at the chronic LACK of positive press that Ron Paul gets. He wins a poll it's 'irrelevant', he wins a poll, it's 'telling and imformative, and shows how he's 'damaging' the party line by diving them'.

Truth be told.. it comes down to the leadership. The conservative segment of the GOP is run and led by men who learned their jobs during the Nixon era. Look at some of the men in that arena. Karl Rove, the master of the 'East Texas Special'. Dick Cheney.

A lot of the 'leaders' of the GOP who aren't elected fit the 'authoritarian' personality these days. This is NOT the type you want in leadership roles without restraint or checks in balances.

I am not as familiar about the backhistory of the leadership of the Democrats on the national level. I know more than a few of the ones that run things back in my home state. The 'East NC' mob of men and women who run the state most elections. There are more than a few authoritarians on that side too. It's just not as easy a fit for the democrats.

I'm a Moderate Republican. I've voted for Democrats, because I judge the man..not the color of his tie. I've held my nose and voted for the 'lesser evil'. I've penciled in 'Bill the Cat'. I missed one election (and let me tell you.. it was hard to keep my mouth shut for four years). I'm of the opinion that cutting things is only half the problem. No one wants to admit the truth.

No more tax breaks. We need to cinch in the belt and accept that a LOT of us will have a tax burden that will grow. Because when you look at it in a blunt and frank manner.. 'cut and burn' the budget isn't doing things right now. 'Downsizing' regulations and regulatory agencies have left us in the biggest mess since the Great Depression. Pandering to special interests have left us with our two parties so beholden to them that they are militantly partisan and have lost sight of the fact they don't work for Dow, GE and the rest of them.

We need to reform the tax code, build a system to build our country..rather than hide funds for a few men. Not give them more and more and more and more money to prop up the foundations of sand their buildings are built on. 'Too big to fail' doesn't have to mean 'prop it up no matter what'. We broke up AT&T and a LOT of things came out of it that we didnt' have. Why not divide Goldman Sachs up into 'divisions' that are separate?

Break the banks up into 'mini-BoAs' and such. Accept that we'll have to increase taxes. Restore bank regulations to ensure we can avoid the toxic mortgage pill that floated around Wall Street for years. Diminish the influence of special interests.

And for god's sake.. reverse Citizen's United! We've seen more corporate money spent in politics this year..these first FOUR MONTHS than in the entire 2000 election cycle. Estimates that 40 people have spent over 80% of the money so far.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2012, 11:32:11 AM »
Dirty job killing commie!   ;D

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2012, 11:35:20 AM »
Dirty job killing commie!   ;D

Actually I have been accused of being a pinko before by a chief I worked with. I stated my concerns about the unrestricted implications of the patriot act. I think what I said was 'too few concerns about who the bad guy is beyond 'not me' makes me worry'.

And I think I've made it very clear my take on Corporate Tax reform isn't 'close the loop holes and screw the big companies'. It's more of 'make the loopholes work for the country as WELL as the company'.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2012, 11:48:55 AM »
Hyperbole is the new pink.  All the cool kids do it.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2012, 11:51:17 AM »
Hyperbole is the new pink.  All the cool kids do it.

Rhetorical recognition circuits are down.. it's an election year..they're burned out from overuse.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2012, 11:54:11 AM »
Oh we haven't even started.  Both sides have the money and we know it is going to be an ugly battle.  I will not be surprised to see a resurgance in the Birther movement again.  And of course Mit will be accused of hating poor people.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2012, 12:05:10 PM »
Oh we haven't even started.  Both sides have the money and we know it is going to be an ugly battle.  I will not be surprised to see a resurgance in the Birther movement again.  And of course Mit will be accused of hating poor people.

Yeah.. I'm working up the gumption to watch. I spent an hour each on the 'big cable' news channels several days a week for my critical thinking class. I came away with an intense distaste for 'televison journalism' of all flavors. Even the 'reasonable' reporters overhype their reporting and the issues.

Last night I caught myself yelling at a segment with Michelle Bachmann.. who dodged every question asked and made it all about how the president was ruining things.

So, I am profoundly glad that I'm done with Critical thinking and am quite looking forward to my 'art class' of 'modern movie and film' appreciation next term.

Offline AndyZTopic starter

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2012, 12:51:11 PM »
You're right.  I did start this with the premise that our system is flawed, that there surely has to be somebody out there better than either Obama or Romney.  Since I seem to be the only one to think so, going to remove my Notify for this topic.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2012, 01:47:04 PM »
You're right.  I did start this with the premise that our system is flawed, that there surely has to be somebody out there better than either Obama or Romney.  Since I seem to be the only one to think so, going to remove my Notify for this topic.

There probably is. Problem is that person is a LEADER. He/She will want to lead and make decisions and most likely will be able to think for themselves and isn't tied to special interests. The party leaders don't want someone like that as president today. They don't want someone who can rebuild the idea of coming together. So long as the party leadership controls the people in the oval office, speaker seat and other spots they can continue to maintain the status quo.

One thing I learned from seeing my brother run for office is the old folks in charge want to STAY in charge. They don't want a 40 year old to take their place.

Offline Serephino

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2012, 08:39:21 PM »
The apathetic attitude is the problem.  The people in charge get to stay in charge because people sit on their asses and whine, but don't go vote because their vote doesn't count.  This means that during an election year the candidates only have to charm enough people to win.  That's a very small percentage.  If there was a 68% voter turnout, that's only a percentage of people who actually bothered to register. 

And so, they charm just enough people, they get elected, then they do whatever the hell they want.  If they're lucky, they won't anger enough people to lose the next election.  The way things are going now, they usually don't.  If more people voted than elected officials might actually be held accountable; the way the system was meant to work. 

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2012, 09:18:36 PM »
The apathetic attitude is the problem.  The people in charge get to stay in charge because people sit on their asses and whine, but don't go vote because their vote doesn't count.  This means that during an election year the candidates only have to charm enough people to win.  That's a very small percentage.  If there was a 68% voter turnout, that's only a percentage of people who actually bothered to register. 

And so, they charm just enough people, they get elected, then they do whatever the hell they want.  If they're lucky, they won't anger enough people to lose the next election.  The way things are going now, they usually don't.  If more people voted than elected officials might actually be held accountable; the way the system was meant to work. 


Exactly, that is one of the reason it's been damn near impossible to get election days declared holidays. It's 'business as usual' so that you can not be sure of getting the maximal outcome. Add in the surge of registration and 'election' reform laws that have curtained access to the voter ids and cards and shorted 'early voting' in many states. Not all of these changes are 'reforms' or 'cost cutting measures' like they are shown to be.

If the Tea Party and ultra-conservatives continue their trends, I think you'll find that a lot of the things we consider 'fair game' on this board won't be for long.

Offline Caela

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2012, 09:49:41 AM »
Exactly, that is one of the reason it's been damn near impossible to get election days declared holidays. It's 'business as usual' so that you can not be sure of getting the maximal outcome. Add in the surge of registration and 'election' reform laws that have curtained access to the voter ids and cards and shorted 'early voting' in many states. Not all of these changes are 'reforms' or 'cost cutting measures' like they are shown to be.

If the Tea Party and ultra-conservatives continue their trends, I think you'll find that a lot of the things we consider 'fair game' on this board won't be for long.

This is also the problem with doing all the voting on ONE day. Even if you didn't want to declare it a holiday, if you did it over the course of say, 3-5, days, more people would have the ability to get out to vote. It would also make it easier for people who might not be able to take off a whole day to take just a couple hours (or less since the voting stations wouldn't be so mobbed) go and vote, and return to work.

Even if it were a holiday, some of us wouldn't be able to get the day off. For example I work 12 hour shifts at a local hospital, I have to be to work before the polls open, and by the time I get out, and to my polling station, they're closed. Now I am lucky enough to work with a great group of folks and could probably get someone to come in and cover for me for a couple hours to go vote but not everyone has that particular luxury. If voting happened over the course of a few days though, I wouldn't need it. With my 12 hours shifts, I only work 3 days a week so if we did voting over a few days, everyone in my department would have the chance on one of them to go and cast their votes.