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Author Topic: Vote No Evil 2012  (Read 4929 times)

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Offline Missy

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2012, 10:07:49 AM »
I'm ashamed to say I'm one of those people not registered to vote and that I don't know near as much about the system or it's goings ons as I should. I probably lack the expertise to really know what needs to be done to solve all of the obvious problems with the system or the way it's run nowadays.

What I can say though is that I would concur with anyone who thinks the current politicians in office are more concerned with what's best for themselves than bearing in any sense of sincere patriotism. It's their leadership that's got us into this mess of excessive debt and other issues which plague our nation now.

I think maybe three or four things might actually be of use to resolving the issues:

Firstly, no more private contributions to campaigns, I think it should all come from public funds and that everyone should get an equal amount. The playing field would be leveled and the poor man would have as much running power as the wealthy man, at least as far as monetary concerns go. Isn't that what America is supposed to be about anyway? Equality? Truthfully what's the difference between wealthy elitism and nobility? Are we oligarchs or noblemen?

Corporations aren't people. This is ridiculous and frankly shows policy-makers true colours. This is ultimately nothing more than favoritism towards those most able to line the pockets of those 'responsible' for making laws with more Benjamins. Corporations aren't people, they're owned by people, people who shouldn't have any more say in government affairs than a Janitor.

Which brings up the question of lobyists. I'm not 100% certain what to do about this, but I have a couple of thoughts. First off everyone has a right to representation, however it's a rather unfair advantage when someone else can hire an entire firm of lawyers to influence legislative policy. I've already given my thoughts on the idea that a Corporation can be thought of as equal to a person. Corporations are owned by people however, who have rights equal to every other person. So they should have a right to be represented in legislative procedure, but isn't that what a Congressman does? And many of them are lawyers too. So if CEO's and members of Boards of Directors can hire lobyists so should Janitors be able too, but why bother to go through all the trouble when you can equalize everyone by cutting the entire concept of lobbyists out in the first place?

I would also do away with negative advertising during political campaigns. It may be true sometimes that saying something negative about another person is actually honest, however these negative political ad campaigns are really just about taking other people's statements out of context and telling lies over and over and over again until it sticks and people believe those lies. Part of what I noticed the "lesser of evils" concept noted in the title of this thread is that politicians are trying to get you to vote for them because the other guy is so bad. I really wouldn't take anything bad one politician said about another unless he gave it to me in essay form and did so using full references to every point he or she made. It's entirely possible that none of these things are true and that some of these fellows are actually good guys, but of course if they are such good people why would they pay someone to make up lies about another person and tell those lies over and over and over again until you believe them?

So anyways, I'm actually convinced now that the way the system currently works is the worst possible way to discern the truth and decide who is best for the job. I suppose no one is truly worthy of my vote, until he or she breaks from the norm and shows me he or she bears true sincere ethics and patriotism. Until he or she says "Not I, but you and I. Not I alone, but UnIty"

Offline Serephino

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2012, 04:14:59 PM »
Oh, god, yes, enough with the negative ads!  They started here a few weeks ago and I'm already ready to tear my hair out.  The two Democrats running for the district, I wanna kiss them because they aren't doing this.  There are a few tiny jabs here and there, but mostly the ads are about the candidate.  It was on the news they made some kind of pact.  They both now hold the two districts that are being combined into one.  They are not going to attack each other, and whoever loses the primary is going to support the winner because they want to see a Democrat keep the seat.  Yep, they're running against each other, but working together *gasp*

The Republicans need to be helped off a cliff, the both of them!  One started calling the other not conservative enough (apparently this is a huge issue and liberal has become a dirty word).  Then the other said oh yeah, if I'm so liberal why did he vote for Obama in the Presidential election?  That just blew me away.  Who one votes for is supposed to be their private business.  How can it be legal to announce on TV who someone else voted for?  Why does it seem the laws are just there for show?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2012, 04:20:27 PM »
Oh, god, yes, enough with the negative ads!  They started here a few weeks ago and I'm already ready to tear my hair out.  The two Democrats running for the district, I wanna kiss them because they aren't doing this.  There are a few tiny jabs here and there, but mostly the ads are about the candidate.  It was on the news they made some kind of pact.  They both now hold the two districts that are being combined into one.  They are not going to attack each other, and whoever loses the primary is going to support the winner because they want to see a Democrat keep the seat.  Yep, they're running against each other, but working together *gasp*

The Republicans need to be helped off a cliff, the both of them!  One started calling the other not conservative enough (apparently this is a huge issue and liberal has become a dirty word).  Then the other said oh yeah, if I'm so liberal why did he vote for Obama in the Presidential election?  That just blew me away.  Who one votes for is supposed to be their private business.  How can it be legal to announce on TV who someone else voted for?  Why does it seem the laws are just there for show?


I figure around convention time in August you'll see what NASTY really is.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2012, 04:42:39 PM »
I hate to break it to my fellow Americans, but we're long past the time when voting actually changed anything...especially at the national level, and most of all for POTUS.

Any one running for POTUS who actually wanted to fundamentally change the system would be headed off before the election.  The media would be ordered to ignore them, or to portray the person as a radical.  There would be a "scandal."

If that didn't work, there's the Electoral College to head the person off with.  Remember President-Select Bush II?

And if somehow a person were to slip past all of this, get through Inauguration and then try and make changes, they'd be fishing his body out of the Potomac by the end of May.  An "accident," of course.  Anyone in a position to prove otherwise would also have an "accident." 

The corporations run this country.  They own it.  And they won't hesitate to dig a hole in the desert--while the media studiously look the other way--for anyone who poses a threat to their rule.  As Stalin said, it is enough that the people know there was an election.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2012, 04:56:10 PM »
I hate to break it to my fellow Americans, but we're long past the time when voting actually changed anything...especially at the national level, and most of all for POTUS.

Any one running for POTUS who actually wanted to fundamentally change the system would be headed off before the election.  The media would be ordered to ignore them, or to portray the person as a radical.  There would be a "scandal."

If that didn't work, there's the Electoral College to head the person off with.  Remember President-Select Bush II?

And if somehow a person were to slip past all of this, get through Inauguration and then try and make changes, they'd be fishing his body out of the Potomac by the end of May.  An "accident," of course.  Anyone in a position to prove otherwise would also have an "accident." 

The corporations run this country.  They own it.  And they won't hesitate to dig a hole in the desert--while the media studiously look the other way--for anyone who poses a threat to their rule.  As Stalin said, it is enough that the people know there was an election.

Cyncial thought like that is why we're failing when other countries are regaining control of their systems. No control is total. The foundation of the oligarchy that you say is in place is cracking.

Where it goes from here, is entirely up to us. John Q. Public. You can give up. You can vote. You can inform yourself.

The reason I say that.. is I met an old black man who once told me that he felt similarly about the fight for civil rights. Till he met a black clergy man who opened his eyes. Hope is never gone so long as some pursue it. Even after the preacher who inspired him was killed in Mephis he believed that.

Yeah, the old man met MLK Jr. John, the old man, told me he learned a lot from that one meeting.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 05:10:30 PM by Callie Del Noire »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2012, 05:05:31 PM »
I hate to break it to my fellow Americans, but we're long past the time when voting actually changed anything...especially at the national level, and most of all for POTUS.

Any one running for POTUS who actually wanted to fundamentally change the system would be headed off before the election.  The media would be ordered to ignore them, or to portray the person as a radical.  There would be a "scandal."

If that didn't work, there's the Electoral College to head the person off with.  Remember President-Select Bush II?

And if somehow a person were to slip past all of this, get through Inauguration and then try and make changes, they'd be fishing his body out of the Potomac by the end of May.  An "accident," of course.  Anyone in a position to prove otherwise would also have an "accident." 

The corporations run this country.  They own it.  And they won't hesitate to dig a hole in the desert--while the media studiously look the other way--for anyone who poses a threat to their rule.  As Stalin said, it is enough that the people know there was an election.

Presumably said corporations are run by a confederacy of Illuminati officials and ambassadors from the Lizard People? :P

Offline Serephino

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2012, 08:25:03 PM »
Evil only triumphs when good men do nothing.  Keep up that cynical attitude and nothing will ever change.  The 1% is outnumbered 99 to 1.  They are the American Aristocracy because the rest of us have become complacent.  Why do you think they're going after the education budget like piranhas after a cow when we're already behind?  The under educated, ignorant masses are little more than sheeple, never questioning authority.  That's why it was once a crime to educate a slave.   

Offline Missy

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2012, 12:05:34 AM »
I really don't go for the 'for the party' attitude either. Though it is possible there's another perspective on that. I mean it isn't a bad idea to support someone who shares your beliefs and ethics, but they talk about it like it's loyalty to the party. Which could be interpreted as loyalty to themselves and their own or a series of ethics which they share, depending on how you review it.

In any case I think above all else we need patriots in office, I would sooner vote for a son or daughter of a single parent who worked his or her way through college on whatever odd jobs he or she had to do than vote for another silverspoon born into inheritance. I'm not saying lawyers and the wealthy shan't be in office, but we have a serious issue of balance in our congress now. "We the people" meant all the people, not just the most 'well-off' to begin with.

I would concur that we're being run by an oligarchy in the modern era. However even the most absolute of monarchies rest upon the shoulders of the people. You merely have to piss them off, how else was it so that America was born?

If all else fails:
Riot -- Three Days Grace

Within legal limits of course, we have the power to shut down the country if we so desired.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2012, 04:32:29 AM »

The problems I see with this massive attack on education is that the 'money' people are diminishing their own 'intellectual' capital. You have a grown disconnect between the vital information industry that requires a strong math/science foundation and we're not moving to maintain much less grow that foundation. We are ignoring 'native resources' and pulling outside 'intellectual capital' to fill the current shortfall. As the 'education implosion' of the US continues, we're leaving ourselves vulnerable. Sooner or later, these 'intellectual resources' , such as the MASSIVE IT support/Call Center/Data Processing networks in India that has been a source of outsourcing for both low paying call center jobs but accounting, programing, IT work, and such will diminish as the people involved start withdrawing and looking for ways to better their own personal conditions. That doesn't cover national interests changing, what will happen when your economic interests run counter to those of the country that is supporting your infrastructure?

Consider this.. IF the current outsourcing of some elements of IT and White Collar jobs continue because the 'shrinking' of the world allows companies to outsource things like accounting, elements of IT and such overseas to locations like China, India and so forth. China is one of the fastest growing technological countries.. India has a MASSIVE educated worker base that we rely on for a lot of business elements.

Why not grow your own tech base by supporting education? Well that is where American Industry and Businesses have failed. The success of American Business has been so long and so continuing that hubris has set in. Short term gains are largely the business of the day. We're, as a country are teetering on AA+ to AA credit rating, and without looking at our debt and infrastructure (HERE) issues we'll be continuing to fail.

Bluntly put, we need to tell business interests to stay out of government. At least to reduce the current level of influence, and accept that the rich and powerful will have to pay a bit more. Not the hideously massive 90%+ of some countries overseas but more than we are now. Downsizing government isn't the answer. The reduction of regulation has made a fairly self evident case against that. The energy industries in the 90s. The current and ongoing bank issues with the massive cases of fraud that CONTINUE to make a few well placed bankers money and everyone else hurts from it.

America is eating itself in a way, working to produce more and more profit from paperwork than actual production of services and/or goods. We have to break this incestuous hold between big money business and the governing structure. Appointing a man from Monsanto to run the FDA isn't perhaps the best idea, but here in the US it's 'good government'.

To enact the changes, we need to change the political culture of the parties. Right now that means we have to participate and interact. With the internet, it's easier to find information about the politicians. When I first started voting, back in the post-death of the fairness doctrine era of Ronald Reagan, you had to rely on the papers and tv stations.

Today.. you can google 'fact check politicians' and get 1.64 MILLION hits in less than a second. Politifact.com and Factcheck.org (the top 2 sites when I did that) both provide resources and links to back up a lot of their claims. Wikipedia provides a good.. (relative) timeline of how a lot of the signifigant figures do things.. typically with references as well.

You can find out the how, who and what of your local races with a few keystrokes. Most state governments provide online sites to tell you how to register, when the votes are being taken, and where. Some states are better than others (My personal experience with Florida and North Carolina has provided vastly different levels of ease)

Now granted my own PERSONAL outlook is that we need to build a level of separation between government and business. That has come from asking this question: 'What is could go wrong with letting the big people in a business community set the rules?' and then looking at what has happened. A good example of how this has screwed the public at large is the repeal of Glass-Steagall Act. The firewall between commercial and investment banks.

Without an active voter base looking, listening and VOTING, none of the changes we need will occur. Mark Twain made numerous comments about the (lack of) honesty of politicians. My take is this.. an honest politician is a WATCHED politician.

Growing up one of the books that had an impact on MY outlook on voting was Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein. I took away this about voting. Voting is both a privilege and a DUTY.  If you do a modicum reading and research, you can become better informed. Informing yourself is (in my opinion) part of that duty. Of course half my Apple TV queue is a lot of things like the Albright Center and Global Security forum lectures, so I know I'm not a 'typical voter'.

It, the political situation, will not change tomorrow. Or next year. Or the year after that. There is a lack of inertia in the system at the moment but if you (and everyone you can convince) continue to look, listen, communicate to your representatives, and MOST IMPORTANTLY VOTE.

Sitting around and bemoaning that 'my vote doesn't work' only reinforces the situation.

Rant done.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 04:39:00 AM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Missy

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2012, 03:52:00 PM »
Good rant, no one is above criticism.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2012, 07:56:32 PM »
Good rant, no one is above criticism.

Sorry about that.. but it has taken nearly forty years to get business so far into the pants of government, it won't fix itself in an election cycle. We need MASSIVE and WIDESPREAD reform on voting, campaign finance, regulatory wise.

Offline Missy

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2012, 08:39:34 PM »
No your fine. "A good politician is a watched politician", "no one is above criticism"

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2012, 09:05:25 PM »
No your fine. "A good politician is a watched politician", "no one is above criticism"

I have a lot of problems spotting the 'lesser' evil this time.

In one corner we have a rich man invester with lots of outlooks I dislike...

In the other we have a 'constitutional' scholar who has repeatedly raped (in my opinion) rights and due process for 'apparent security'.

Offline Missy

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2012, 10:52:16 AM »
"No one [including politicians] is above criticism"


I agree that as near as I can tell their aren't any really good options and it will take time to fix the system and make it functional as intended again.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2012, 10:58:08 AM »
"No one [including politicians] is above criticism"


I agree that as near as I can tell their aren't any really good options and it will take time to fix the system and make it functional as intended again.

On the national level? Not anymore.. Ron Paul is the closest thing on the GOP side that strikes me as rational candidate..he's got 'warts' but who doesn't? The thing that worries me is this....

If President Obama gets elected this time around, who will the democrats back next time around? Four years out, I see ZERO rational candidates on the political horizon. We'll be back to the 'old school' politicians on both sides of things.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2012, 11:59:04 AM »
Robert Reich was considering a third-party run this year, but held back because he didn't want to take votes from Obama.  I suspect he might go for it in 2016. 

Offline Sophronius

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2012, 07:57:52 AM »
Thing is.  The US vote at least is worse. The voters are the percentages of REGISTERED voters, not US Citzens ELIGIBLE to register to vote. Depending on the source you look at, only about HALF of the public bothers to register. Which means for example the 63% of the 2008 turn out is something like 31.1% in actuality. I helped to register voters in 2 of my commands and even in the military I'd say 1 in 3 hadn't bothered to register. EVER.

The apathetic attitude is the problem.  The people in charge get to stay in charge because people sit on their asses and whine, but don't go vote because their vote doesn't count.  This means that during an election year the candidates only have to charm enough people to win.  That's a very small percentage.  If there was a 68% voter turnout, that's only a percentage of people who actually bothered to register. 

And so, they charm just enough people, they get elected, then they do whatever the hell they want.  If they're lucky, they won't anger enough people to lose the next election.  The way things are going now, they usually don't.  If more people voted than elected officials might actually be held accountable; the way the system was meant to work. 


Voter turnout four years ago was 63% among elligible voters, not among registered voters.  Besides, if over 130 million people voted in the last US election and the US population is only a little over 310 million, that's already a little over 40% of the population.  And then when you take out minors, non-voting residents, and non-voting felons, I'm sure that 130 million is something like 63% of the elligible voting population.  And Wikipedia's source on the 63% number seems to be both a reputable study and actually says 63% of elligible, not registered, voters.

On an unrelated note, I don't understand why there is always so much drive to have third-parties run candidates for the presidency.  It would seem to make more sense to run third parties on local elections or at most state-wide elections.  I say this because it seems that there would be a much larger chance to actually win in these elections, given the smaller voting base and the greater ease with which one could both match the campaign finances and interact with individual voters.  And if there is, indeed, an actual chance for victory, third parties (well, third, fourth and fifth parties) could begin to build up some sense of credibility and begin drawing larger number of votes on a state-wide and finaly national stage.  But yeah, ultimately, I don't "get" third party runs for President.  It simply won't happen and makes, at least in my eyes, third parties look sort of crazy.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2012, 12:10:43 PM »
Voter turnout four years ago was 63% among elligible voters, not among registered voters.  Besides, if over 130 million people voted in the last US election and the US population is only a little over 310 million, that's already a little over 40% of the population.  And then when you take out minors, non-voting residents, and non-voting felons, I'm sure that 130 million is something like 63% of the elligible voting population.  And Wikipedia's source on the 63% number seems to be both a reputable study and actually says 63% of elligible, not registered, voters.

On an unrelated note, I don't understand why there is always so much drive to have third-parties run candidates for the presidency.  It would seem to make more sense to run third parties on local elections or at most state-wide elections.  I say this because it seems that there would be a much larger chance to actually win in these elections, given the smaller voting base and the greater ease with which one could both match the campaign finances and interact with individual voters.  And if there is, indeed, an actual chance for victory, third parties (well, third, fourth and fifth parties) could begin to build up some sense of credibility and begin drawing larger number of votes on a state-wide and finaly national stage.  But yeah, ultimately, I don't "get" third party runs for President.  It simply won't happen and makes, at least in my eyes, third parties look sort of crazy.

Because of the short sighted outlook of their leadership and the members. They think they can do it all once and frustration builds up otherwise. The Tea Party was well on the way of falling apart due to that if they hadn't been hijacked by the GOP leadership and sponsors to build up their hold on the party.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2012, 07:44:44 PM »
In the other we have a 'constitutional' scholar who has repeatedly raped (in my opinion) rights and due process for 'apparent security'.

Usually, a Republican sin.  Honestly, I think Obama has been far more centrist than he led on during his campaign.  Of course, that makes it more difficult to paint him as a crazy islamic socialist hell bent on destroying America.

Incidentally, I would like to do a drinking game where you have to take a shot every time someone says 'job killing' or 'failed policies'.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2012, 10:22:45 PM »
Usually, a Republican sin.  Honestly, I think Obama has been far more centrist than he led on during his campaign.  Of course, that makes it more difficult to paint him as a crazy islamic socialist hell bent on destroying America.

Incidentally, I would like to do a drinking game where you have to take a shot every time someone says 'job killing' or 'failed policies'.
...you'd be dead of alcohol poisoning by the end of a presidential debate. Between either party.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2012, 10:48:14 PM »
Usually, a Republican sin.  Honestly, I think Obama has been far more centrist than he led on during his campaign.  Of course, that makes it more difficult to paint him as a crazy islamic socialist hell bent on destroying America.

Incidentally, I would like to do a drinking game where you have to take a shot every time someone says 'job killing' or 'failed policies'.

Don't use Fox news for it.. you'll die!

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2012, 10:39:32 AM »
The problems I see with this massive attack on education is that the 'money' people are diminishing their own 'intellectual' capital. You have a grown disconnect between the vital information industry that requires a strong math/science foundation and we're not moving to maintain much less grow that foundation. We are ignoring 'native resources' and pulling outside 'intellectual capital' to fill the current shortfall. As the 'education implosion' of the US continues, we're leaving ourselves vulnerable. Sooner or later, these 'intellectual resources' , such as the MASSIVE IT support/Call Center/Data Processing networks in India that has been a source of outsourcing for both low paying call center jobs but accounting, programing, IT work, and such will diminish as the people involved start withdrawing and looking for ways to better their own personal conditions. That doesn't cover national interests changing, what will happen when your economic interests run counter to those of the country that is supporting your infrastructure?

Consider this.. IF the current outsourcing of some elements of IT and White Collar jobs continue because the 'shrinking' of the world allows companies to outsource things like accounting, elements of IT and such overseas to locations like China, India and so forth. China is one of the fastest growing technological countries.. India has a MASSIVE educated worker base that we rely on for a lot of business elements.

All this is true.  The wealthy elite don't give a hoot.  They're not interested in the prosperity or sustainability of America.  They're looting and plundering this country.  And when they've stripped it bare, they'll move on to the next country...and Fox News will still be around to tell us all how liberals and unions drove the "job creators" out of the country.

Offline Etah dna Evol

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Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2012, 06:01:31 PM »
last time was 2008, but the homophobic rednecks got it passed anyway, thus ending my donations to any local charities).

If you are talking about Prop H8ate here in California is has been shown that the voter turnout that made the difference in passing Prop 8 are African America's who also voted for Obama.

Generally, relying on stereotypes is unhelpful in political and/or social analysis.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2012, 06:05:07 PM »


That sums up my views a lot.. I'm just wanting 'fair play' and a 'representative' democracy/republic. When someone games the system (like the special interests have) we aren't working at our optimum peak.

Offline Etah dna Evol

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Re: Vote No Evil 2012
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2012, 06:12:27 PM »
Actually a fair number of Americans are part of the international 1%.

In order to be part of the top 1% of all earners in the world, you need to make . . . . . $35,000.00 a year.

The problem with the Occupy kids is that they lack perspective. They don't understand the difference between poverty and not poverty. They think they are poor if they can't buy a latte in Starbucks and they think they are hungry if their stomachs are growling.