My anime crew?

[Chris Brady]

I've been an Anime fan from about 3 years old.  But I didn't know that it was anime back then.  After all, they were on the French Canadian channels (translated), but I used to watch a whole slew of Shoujo titles, Captain Albatross, Captain Future...  Astro Boy... (This I saw in both French and English.)

In about 1998, I actually got into it heavily as an Anime club opened up at a local university.  Haven't looked back.

[Haruki]

@ Caeli:  Miaka's character was a popular stereotype back in those days.

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I think I explained already why I preference dubs over subs.  For me it's not about what's original (and in some fans' opinions, 'better'), but more of a necessity.

I'm fair though about it.  If a dub is bad, I call it out.  Crest of the Stars, anyone?  And they all said to me. "Most stuff tailored more for TV airing (ie: Pokemon, Naruto, etc) are bad."  Ohhh no no.  There are bad direct-to-home-video dubs too.....some I daresay are/were WORSE than anything on TV.

Fushigi Yuugi doesn't count for me among the 'worst of the worst' though.  It came out at a time when they (dubs were starting to finally be given a more serious take in terms of production values....but just weren't quite there yet.  Close, but no full cigar.  Before it and a few other titles, there was some truly laughably BAD stuff out there.....most anything from the defunct distributor, Streamline Pictures.  Early ADV (back then as A.D. Vision) stuff is often cited as being bad, along with stuff by CPM prior to their releases of Loddoss War (OAV) and The Slayers (starting with the 2nd half of the first season to that series.....the first half had rather terrible VAs for two of its major characters).  Many disliked Ranma 1/2's dub.....though considering it was done WAY back in the early / mid 1990s, it's not terribly bad.  It's just dogged by a stiff vocal track that they fed through software that shortened or lengthened syllables and silent parts to match mouth movements.  Trouble is that it resulted in an end product sounding very artificial, thus almost killing the experience.

Alas, here comes my 'understanding' side of me.  I didn't find it terrible.  Passable, but not grandiose either.  If I were into anime back in those early days, I would have probably been the stupid one and called it the best dub around.

Really preferences often stem from what you first saw.  Me with my visual impairment and no access to a close-by university with an anime club (closest would have been a 1hr 15min trip away), and most all major retailers (really only Sam Goody and Suncoast) choosing to carry dubbed videotapes over subtitle, all were factors in the way I enjoy my anime.

If circumstances were different, I'm pretty sure I would have taken in an equal amount of subbed anime as well, like the few (if any.....nothing the last couple years grabs me as 'interesting' and worth the time to track down and stream) that I'd be watching online today.

[Jag]

I doubt many Yaoi fans have stuck their heads in here yet, but has anyone ever seen Ai No Kusabi? There is a mild following for it here on E (I run a very slow group game for it). To me, it's a very good show, even if the animation is a little strange.

[Faustus]

I think some dubs are superior to subs, due to the fact that they can actually display certain aspects that the original Japanese audio track could not : Hellsing (Ultimate OVA more than the Original 13 episodes) is one of those prime examples.

The setting isn't even in Japan : It's main focus is spent in the United Kingdom (London, mostly) and, due to that, for the realism of the characters, you require the accents. Japanese VA's cannot give characters accents like the dubs can. I think, personally, it really helps to emphasize traits and features with the characters : The Nazi's are German. The Hellsing's are English. Maxwell is Italian. Anderson is Scottish (I can't recall if the character was actually written as an Irish priest, or Scottish, but the actor himself is native-Scottish, so I'm rolling that way. . .). Pip is. . .er. Well. French, even if Yuri needed some help with that one.

I tried watching that one subbed, but it failed terribly. I couldn't get behind the voices. Nothing against the original actors, but they had nothing over the dubbed ones.

There are, however, other anime's that the dubbed acting was just. . .*wince*

I doubt many Yaoi fans have stuck their heads in here yet, but has anyone ever seen Ai No Kusabi? There is a mild following for it here on E (I run a very slow group game for it). To me, it's a very good show, even if the animation is a little strange.

Yaoi fan here. I've seen small bits of it - Dial up has limited me on that front, which is very depressing. . . I liked what I got to see, at least.

[Haruki]

@ Michi:  In what way is the animation strange?

I admit, yaoi isn't something I actively look for.  Other than the rather tame Gravitation, it just never grabbed me.  Ditto yuri (which I'm sure some guys enjoy.)  At the end of the day, I preference hetero romance, though I can understand completely how some folks want to sate their fantasies, or get away from the (unfortunately) cliched presentations of hetero pairings.

Romance in anime is where the culture divide between Western and Japanese mindsets really rears its head. Over there, there's a lack of really strong female leads.  Most are hampered by ditzy, airheaded, or 'doormat' personalities, and most have highly subservient leanings.

Unfortunately, that's the fantasy of many-a-Japanese 'otaku' male, as so it goes.

It doesn't work here, and hasn't for ages.  I even notice it in my choices for anime.  Since watching 'better' shoujo titles with stronger females (ie: Cardcaptor Sakura.....albeit the lead character is young, I sense the strong independence in her), and other titles with strong female roles (Moribito, Saiunkoku, Twelve Kingdoms, etc), I can't go back to stuff with the typical female personalities that run rampart in the anime world.  On occasion, I sate my fanboy needs for that with oldies like the Ah! My Goddess OAVs or something, but nothing much in new material out there appeals to me.

@ Faustus:  I think that's another driving factor of what works and doesn't, in terms of dubs.  If the anime is set in a Japanese(-esque) setting, people tend to lean towards the original Japanese track.  For English and U.S. settings (like what Hellsing has, I'll also throw in Eden of the East, Spice & Wolf, Fullmetal Alchemist/Brotherhood, plus a myriad of other titles set in past-fantasy/medieval/etc periods), often more than not, the dub suffices or exceeds the Japanese track.

[Jag]

Yaoi fan here. I've seen small bits of it - Dial up has limited me on that front, which is very depressing. . . I liked what I got to see, at least.

Ai No Kusabi is based on a novel, which I have been trying to get my hands on for a while now. It is really good and they are doing a remake that the first part was set to release in Japan earlier this month.

@ Michi:  In what way is the animation strange?

I guess I should say that it looks different rather than strange. It seems very Gundam Wing to me, which isn't a bad thing. Honestly, as excited as I am for the remake, the look of the Blondies (mostly Iason) seems off. Rather than looking high and mighty, superior, strong, and almost like Lestat should for the Anne Rice books...he looks ill and sickly. Not like the strong man that was capable of mangling a human body with his bare hands that he was in the original.

[Chris Brady]

I hated Fuushigi Yuugi.  Man... For my money, I hate dubs.  Because the main issue is that they try to lip sync.  And they will change the lines spoken to 'fit'.  Also, American dubbing companies STILL don't understand that Anime fans DO understand some of the foibles of Japanese culture (Or if not, we're willing to LEARN about them.)  That's what I hate about dubbing.

[Haruki]

Yikes, that's a bit of a strong way to put it, but to each their own.

Alas, I realize I'm in a minority in the fandom, especially when one gets away from mainstream anime and into more niche titles.  It's why I often don't hang out on anime message boards.  Way too much loathing for dubs.  I know, I know, I shouldn't let it get to me, but it does a tiny bit.

If it weren't for dubs, I wouldn't be able to enjoy anime, period.  I can't see as well as most into anime, so subtitles (especially on some of the brighter backdrops anime tend to have) are a bitch.

I've come to just agree to disagree and usually ignore the hate.  We have our preferred way of watching anime.  I just don't wish to be ridiculed or mocked for it.

As for FY itself, it is really a love it / hate it title.  I can handle that.  For someone like me who liked the series, I even found some aspects annoying.

"Miaka" / "Tamahome", "Miaka" / "Tamahome", "Miaka" / "Tamahome"......etc etc etc

Need I type more? 

[Koibito]

So is anyone old enough and or obscure enough to be a fan of Saint Seiya?

[Haruki]

I can only speak for myself of course.

I don't think St. Seiya got big here in the U.S.  It was Dragon Ball Z (DBZ) that most people got attached to here from what I remember.  DBZ was massively huge, anime chatrooms were full of younger fans going on and on after each day's episode commenced.  Yes, it was that huge, and whilst its fanbase has shrunk with people getting older, it still does have its devotees.

I do recall reading online though, that around many parts of the rest of the world outside Japan and the U.S. / Canada, St. Seiya was 'the big action anime' to get popular in the 1990s, especially in Mexico and other regions of Latin / S. America.

I'm old enough to remember all the series of the 1980s (The Littles, Heathcliff, GI Joe, etc, plus many of Disney's 1980s/1990s animated series) that were conceived and story-written here in the U.S., but all animation production was done in either France or (mostly) Japan, animation handled mainly by TMS, Toei and Topcraft (Studio Ghibli grew out of remnants from Topcraft).  Eventually by the mid 1990s, Japan got too expensive, so now most productions (like the Simpsons) are done in S. Korea.

[Chris Brady]

I did not like FY for two reasons.  The way it bounced emotionally was incredibly jarring and when you have a hilarious scene (which there was plenty of) and then counterbalance it almost immediately with a horribly tragedy, I felt guilt for laughing.  It's not a pleasant experience for me.  The next involves a spoiler that I am not sure I should go into.

For the record, the Dubbing issue for me, is like I stated a purely technical one.  It's all about lip syncing and content alteration.  Two things I disagree with.  However, one of my favourite Shoujo Manga (Man I feel like a deviant, 38 and I like girly comics...  ) is Full Moon Wo Sagashite.  I also loved the Manga and the first season of Fruits Basket.  It even ended in the way I hoped!  I'm currently watching Ergo Proxy, and liking it.

[Haruki]

Well, can't fault them for trying.  ADR is different than the way it's usually done here in the U.S.  Shows like The Simpsons, Family Guy, and others are done in a way where voiceovers are recorded first, then those tapes are sent to the animation studios for them to sync up the lip-movement with during the production process.

Anime (both in Japan and Stateside) are done the ADR method.....animation is done first, then the voices are synced up (as best as possible) to the random mouth movements, which have to be timed just right from the first open of the mouth to the last time it shuts.  Of course, you probably already know about this, since your issues with dubs in general are on the technical side.  The trouble therein is that in translation, they lengthen or shorten phrases and sentences depending on how much time they have.

Alas, liberties like that draw the ire of die-hard fans.  Especially when you have a bad translator and (worse), a bad script-adaption person, and (worse still), a bad director behind the mixing desk with no sense of timing.

They try, but I do understand where you're coming from on a technical level.  In fixing audio to a long out-of-print anime I got online.....one of the episodes had relatively poor audio, I ripped the audio track, cleaned, de-clicked and removed what hiss I could (remastering), then had to mute the original audio track and replace it with my newly cleaned splice to the original animation.....I got a little dose of what is involved in ADR.  It's, to be blunt, a pain.  I lucked out and timed the splice just right my first try, encoded the file, and voila.

As for Fushigi Yuugi's way with melodrama switching in a jarring fashion to comedic bits (and in somewhat annoying 'super deformed' mode), I can understand that too.  Then again, it was an anime very much aimed at young teen girls back when it took to air in 1995-1996 overseas.  There 'are' better and more serious-leveled drama of the shoujo bent.  FY is not one of those.  I still like it, but it's probably moreso now on a nostalgic level.  It wouldn't be something I'd highly recommend this day in age.  Back then, probably would have since there wasn't as much out there in the marketplace (on home video or if you include today's technology, streaming).

[Caeli]

Hey, no hate for dubs here - I simply expressed my own preferences and my reasons for that preference. I torrented and downloaded my anime when I was actively into anime, and a lot of the time, I simply became a fan before it was ever licensed (if it was even licensed) in the States. I know there are some good dubs out there, but I don't need dubs, so I just don't bother with them. I already have a very basic grasp of the Japanese language, also, and once I refamiliarize myself with the language and become fluent, I hope to not even need English subtitles.

I definitely agree that my preference for strong female protagonists is what turns me off of a lot of the most popular romance/shoujo titles, as well as many of the popular Chinese, Taiwanese, Japanese, and Korean television dramas. I simply don't find whimpery, whiny, doormat-like, ditzy, or airheaded interesting, attractive, or fun to watch. There's a whole other discussion behind the Asian tendency towards "cutesy" females in many romantic comedies or romantic dramas, though.

Anyway, I really need to catch up on some anime that I haven't finished, and even though I'm not as active as I used to be, I still do a lot of hunting for great new scanlations and series.

Almost forgot! Another series I enjoyed: Code Geass (haven't watched the second season). Fantastic, and kept me on my toes. I'm not always into shows with such an anti-hero, but I found myself really connecting with some of the other characters.

[SinXAzgard21]

I've been a anime for the longest time, I don't even remember my first anime.  I could go into more depth but I'm a bit tipsy from the wine.... So I'll list a few.

Saiyuki
Fushigi Yugi
Wolf's Rain
Witch Hunter Robin
X
Tokyo Babylon
Hell Gril
Noir
Noein
R.O.D.

[Caeli]

Ooh. Yes. Witch Hunter Robin! Another old, old favorite. I've rewatched it a couple of times, and really enjoyed the animation and the artwork for that particular anime. At the time, it seemed very non-typical (to me), since a lot of my usual fare was the shoujo-big-eyes sort of look.

[Haruki]

@ Caeli:  No hate from me for subs either.  I just stated my prefs and the reasons for them.

I also don't mean to sound like a frustrated 'grumpy old man' (i'm not even old either) when it comes to anime.  I can handle others' opinions and preferences, though "I" need to understand and just deal with the fact that the deeper I get into anime, the less people within the fandom will be into dubs, mainly because they got into the deeper titles via fansubs, which are obviously subtitle-only.  Always has been the case even in the days of VHS tape trading in the 1990s.

Also of which, out of those 'niche' anime, probably only 20% or so get licensed.  The rest are way too niche and could never be marketed properly Stateside.

One thing I'm sure we can both agree to though, Caeli, no matter how we each enjoy anime......it's DAMN FRIGGING TOUGH to find anything real good in the anime (and for you, extending into live-action dramas) that has a strong female lead in the story.  Ugh!  This is probably where Western storytelling does a bit better, but not by much.  It seems the only strong females in Western storytelling are from the various 'superhero' franchises and whatnot, of which I'm not into at all.  I'm more a high fantasy fanatic, not so much a sci-fi person.  Though maybe I need to go searching a bit harder.  I don't know.  I'm seriously getting back into reading novels thanks to owning a Kindle, so suggestions of where to start could help immensely.

Either way, it's like this.

Japan = Airhead, ditzy, girls
U.S. (Can't speak for other areas of the world) = Girls who flaunt it all and just act like real losers, the likes of which seen on most "scripted reality" TV.

Both nations have what I like to affectionately call "pandering trash".

(A quick off-topic aside:  The lack of strong females in anime may explain (to me, YMMV) why not many females enjoy playing 'canon' females from any anime, especially when we get a bit older, instead playing males or making up their own OCs.  I'm trying to appease all fronts with a current request / interest check thread on-site by opening up to more male or OC possiblities.  There are some though, where my stubborn-ass self rears its head and I just can't seem to yank a romantically involved pair apart.  Anime has its crappy male protagonists as well, but they seem to be fewer in number.  Oh wait.....yaoi......the badly written yaoi.....doormat subby males.)

[Jag]

So is anyone old enough and or obscure enough to be a fan of Saint Seiya?

I wouldn't call Saint Seiya all that obscure. It did have a short run on Cartoon Network and I've seen quite a bit of it. I also know, offline, many fans of it. I thought it was enjoyable.

[Haibane]

Haruki, I can think of several anime with interesting female characters, some of which might not be strong in a traditional sense but none of which are weak or moe-like.

Evangelion (there are at least four good strong female characters there), Haruhi Suzumiya, Bakemonogatari, Onegai Teacher, Read or Die, Beck, Elfen Leid (in some ways), Hana-Saku Iroha, Ano Hana, High School of the Dead, Kashimashi, Lovely Complex, Ghost in the Shell, Steins: Gate, Haibane Renmei, Kare Kano.

And these from just the ones I've watched, which isn't many.

Almost all of Ghibli's girls are extremely strong characters, stronger than the males they face or team up with in some cases.

I love the moe girls as well, and classics like Mikuru Asahina from Haruhi are adorable, but only if they're not the main character. K-ON! for example I found somewhat dull after the fun of the first couple of episodes had worn off, mostly due to the improbable storyline and the amount of time the series spent focussing on the girls clowing about and eating cake and drinking tea and almost none of practicing!

Unfortunately moe is extremely popular right now so we'll be seeing a good deal more of it.

[Chris Brady]

Most Tsundere lead females are also pretty strong females.  They also tend to be fan favourites, because they're more independent than your usual Yamato Nadesico lead.

[Haruki]

Hmm, I happen to have some of those series you list.  The rest haven't been released on DVD yet, though they may be out there in online streaming form.  Those I do have already are:

Evangelion, Haruhi Suzumiya, Onegai Teacher, Beck, Haibane Renmei, Kare Kano, and most of the Ghibli stuff. (I don't have anything recent past Howl's Moving Castle).

Those along with the few I usually list / think of with strong females......Saiunkoku, Twelve Kingdoms (esp. during the 3rd story arc), Moribito, and I'm sure a couple more, but I forgot.

Heh, guess I do have quite a few here as it is.

[Haibane]

I even sent you a PM a couple of days ago offering an RP... no reply yet.

Interested?

[Caeli]

I'd actually been recommend Twelve Kingdoms more than once but never had the opportunity to find and download it. Now that I have infinite amounts of free time at hand, maybe I'll give it a try. :)

[Haruki]

Well here's another recommendation from me.

Go watch Twelve Kingdoms.....now!  ^_~  Try to give it a chance too, because the first 5 episodes seemingly start out a bit like a typical anime with a somewhat 'whiny' female lead.  Wait for it though, and just watch.  She'll have the 'whiny' knocked right out of her in a hurry once she finds out what she must do and what her purpose is, all told through a near-death experience and a battle with her inner self / mind.

I will not spoil the details.

There is really no 'lead' character per-se.  There's several storylines that go on throughout the course of the series, with their respective characters crossing paths at several points.

Trust me, you're in for a treat with that series.  I watched it 6 times over a 2 year span (2006-2007)

Haibane:  I'm interested, I'm just trying to catch up, I'll get around to ya today yet.  Patience, m'lady.

[Miyu]

My first anime believe it or not was Naruto. I mean first anime because that was the first series I actually saw in Japanese with English subs. I remember that my entire group of friends got hooked and we did a entire 24 hour Naruto marathon. After that I began watching MaiHime and got hooked as well with it, I truly loved that anime. I started Bleach not soon after and then started reading manga. So far I am always watching for good anime to look for and have a good time with it.

[Haruki]

Miyu:  So any anime you may have watched in English beforehand you don't count as 'anime'?

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Then again it does depend on when one got into anime in the first place.  Understandably by the mid-2000s onwards to present day, most who graduate from the likes of CN's airings of Bebop, Inuyasha and others,  pretty much only follow anime online, as such, sub-only.  Dubs?  What are those?

Those like myself got into it back in the mid/late 1990s.  Dub-format VHS was all the rental places (Hollywood, Blockbuster, etc) carried, and stores like Suncoast didn't get heavy selections of anime until 1999-2000, which by then DVD was becoming the format and therein, you had a choice of flavors...English dub, or Japanese w/ subs.  As for TV, no different than today with Nickelodeon carrying DBZ Kai and the like as it was with early-morning (6AM) syndication.  It's always going to be in dub format.

I didn't choose to watch anime in dubs out of choice though, even if it was all we really had back in those days.  Instead for me, it was (and still is) more out of necessity.  Of course, I was thankful for this because I've always struggled with reading text due to my sight.

It's not the font size on DVD / Bluray that makes subs hard for me to read.  It's the horrible contrast.....yellow on brightly colored (I don't watch a lot of anime with more muted tones or darker colors) backgrounds with thin black outline do not make for an easy / comfortable reading level.  Understandably, due to the DVD / BluRay consortium's 'standards' that have been set for all studios to follow, none of those aspects can be changed.

I think I'm the only anime fan online who exclusively watches anime in dub format.  Moments like this make me wish sometimes I didn't have the circumstances I have.  I feel like, because I watch anime with the English track on (because subtitles are hard for me to read), that I'm less of a 'fan'.

Alas, I do, and as such affect the way I need to watch to get 100% enjoyment of a series.  Trouble is, there's just so much ridicule and disgust towards them (or maybe just a complete misunderstanding because most people watch anime exclusively online now, which is always sub-only), that it's made me hesitant to join full-fledged anime discussion forums, never mind a simple topic thread here.

It's ultimately what made me choose not long ago to just ignore the fandom and be my own fan.  Though it can be a bit of a lonely world because therein I have no one to discuss things.  I feel as though I won't be taken seriously within the online fanbase.

Most 'casual' fans only watch Naruto, DBZ or other things that aired on CN, and never venture beyond into stuff only streamed online and/or released to DVD.

I have watched many beyond the 'staples' of anime out there than the casual fans, and got started long before they did in 1996 (Dragon Ball, DBZ, Sailor Moon, Samurai Pizza Cats, etc)

Yet, I watch them in dubbed format, save for one exception.....Cardcaptor Sakura.

Heh, what gives?  *shrugs*  I guess I really am in the minority.  I can deal with that.

(PS: I mean not to ruffle feathers or anything.  Dub vs Sub arguments are worthless and haven't ended pretty where I've witnessed them online.  I just want to feel like I'm into anime just as much as many others who aren't just into what airs on TV, and not just a 'casual' fan because of a necessity.)