National Defense Authorization Act. Bye-Bye Due Process

[Callie Del Noire]

The National Defense Authorization Act just got passed by the Senate. There are a LOT of things in this act that we need passed. Most of them deal with military spending and budgets. One TINY provision however has scary implications.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/12/05/the-national-defense-authorization-act-is-the-greatest-threat-to-civil-liberties-americans-face/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/29/senate-votes-to-let-military-detain-americans-indefinitely_n_1119473.html

Basically if what I'm reading is correct, if you're declared a terrorist suspect you can be detained without due process, the right to a lawyer or even being charged. Till the Wendsday after NEVER. Because a war on terrorism never ends. The problem is they can do it to American Citizens with this provision.

Yup.. one charge and it's off to Gitmo. No Lawyer, no judge or trial by your peers. Presumed Guilty till decided innocent.

I'm not a 'wide open' government type. I am a retired vet, I swore to defend my country against all foes foreign and domestic. I don't want to be turned into a stormtrooper and I know that liberty is a fragile thing. Our enemies can do a lot to endanger it, but measures like this do more damage than anything a hundred Bin Ladens can do.

I once read about how HUAC and the 'Red Fear' used to rule the country and I don't half wonder if we're not int he grip of new 'Fear'.

[ReijiTabibito]

Just goes to show - people would rather feel safe than feel free.  I once read a statistic from a poll taken back during the early 90s.  It said that Americans (it was either a simple majority or 1/5th, I forget) would be willing to surrender some or all of the Bill of Rights if it meant cutting down on things like crime, corruption, and fraud.

[Callie Del Noire]

Just goes to show - people would rather feel safe than feel free.  I once read a statistic from a poll taken back during the early 90s.  It said that Americans (it was either a simple majority or 1/5th, I forget) would be willing to surrender some or all of the Bill of Rights if it meant cutting down on things like crime, corruption, and fraud.

Till they fall victim to that loss of rights. It's always 'someone else's problem'. I don't think folks consider how hard it is to prove a negative. Once you're accused, particularly if you can't face your accuser and have little or no due process to defend you, you could literally vanish into the prison system never to be seen again. Remember that we are in a war on terror.. terrorists by their very definition are hard to eliminate in less than a generation. So if you're held without trial for the 'duration' of the conflict it could rapidly get very nasty

[ReijiTabibito]

Right.  It's the old story about the old man and the Nazis, about how they kept coming for people (the disabled, the communists, the Jews, etc etc) until they came for him, and there was no one left to speak up for him.

To be fair, part of me says that this is more a scare tactic than anything.  We've got overcrowding in our prisons right now, and jamming them full of people suspected of terrorism isn't going to help things.

OTOH, why don't we just come out and say it?  90 year-old Grandma from Podunk, KS is not likely to be a terrorist.  Achmed Phlegm-for-a-last-name, son of Immigrant Also-Phlegm-for-a-last-name, who came from Iran, is a much more likely suspect.

[Sabby]

So we're fighting Terrorists by... becoming Terrorists. Great. Armed conflict against an abstract definition wasn't silly enough?

[Iniquitous]

“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”    ~ Benjamin Franklin


It is a well known fact that the easiest way to control a mass of people is through fear. Make them afraid and they are willing to do anything, give anything, to feel safe and secure while never truly realizing what it is they are giving to have that safety and security.

Anyone remember the saying ‘put a frog in boiling water and it will jump right out. Put a frog in cold water and slowly heat it up, the frog will cook to death’? Slowly but surely small things have happened and we, the people, let them because we wanted safety and couldn’t see the larger picture. Those who did protest and stand up were mocked, called crazy and conspiracy theorists. But look where we are now. And it’s going to continue, going to get worse unless people finally stop sticking their heads in the sand.

[olive]

I just happened to be browsing and this thread caught my eye because I posted this story on my blog recently. I didn't see where anyone had posted this yet but there is a petition to the White House, urging the President to veto the proposed legislation once passed.

Here is the link if anyone is interested:

http://act.demandprogress.org/sign/ndaa/

[Hemingway]

I'd be happy to debate the merits of religion, and how all religions have reprehensible teachings, but that has nothing to do with a debate about terrorism and due process. I mean, do you honestly believe that all muslims - unlike every other religion out there - have a literal interpretation of their holy book, and that they all universally "hate us for our freedom"? Excuse me for not buying that our - that is to say "western" - values are the reason for terrorist attacks. I happen to think reality is more complex and nuanced than that. Between getting involved in other countries' politics, support of Israel's occupation, several wars, and so on, there really is no shortage of explanations that don't start and end with "they're muslims".

If religious values were the most important factor, I imagine we'd be seeing a lot more terrorism in my country, with about 2% muslims, compared to the United States, where most estimates seem to be around 0.5%. This despite the fact that both countries have largely the same values, to the extent that you can actually measure that. We've had one major terrorist attack, carried out by a christian citizen of this country, ironically motivated - at least in his own words - by a fear that muslims were a threat to western civilization.

Even more importantly, though, terrorists in general make up such a tiny fraction of the total world population that to generalize is just dishonest. It's not made any easier by the way in which we might define our count the total number of terrorists, either. If the roles were reversed, it seems highly unlikely we wouldn't be calling Blackwater/Xe a terrorist organization ( or at least many of their actions as terrorism ), just as an example. You just can't blame it all on the values of a particular religion, and act like there's some war going on between different value systems.

I don't even know what to say about this Nation Defense Authorization Act. It does seem to illustrate quite nicely that this isn't, and has never been, about "protecting freedom". Or maybe the people responsible really do think that terrorists hate us for our freedom, and they're trying to fix the problem that way. That is, as far as I can see, the most logical explanation.

[Oniya]

I think we can all agree that we wouldn't want people to make assumptions about us as individuals based on the actions of the extremists of our beliefs.  Unfortunately, the NDAA does just that.  It also calls to mind one of the more heinous events in American history:  the treatment of Japanese-Americans during WWII.  These were people who were interred in camps for no better reason than they looked like the people that we were at war with.  I signed the petition against NDAA after reading the following blog posting:

http://www.allegiancemusical.com/video/never-again?p=643

[Callie Del Noire]

I think, because I started this thread and the discussion of religion is distracting from the point I was trying to make over the provision, that I need to say this.

Any belief system can be twisted, with sufficient effort, into something that can be regarded as evil and demented.

That isn't the issue I was trying to show in my intial post, and for my participation in the distraction of arguing over which religion is better, I apologize.

This isn't about religion. It's about changing what defines us as Americans.

This one little provision has set us back into the same atmosphere that we were in during the days of the Red Fear. Good people were ruined because they stood up for what they believed in, freedoms that we all have. Others were ruined because they were in the way of people with ambition who used the Fear for their benefit.

We, the people, should never take the easy way out. Freedom is a delicate thing.

Like it has been pointed out, Ben Franklin hit it on the nose. We can be free or secure, we can't always be both. But if you give up your freedoms so that the state can 'protect' you, you will lose both.

This provision removing due process, the right to face your accusers, the right to trial and to be represented attacks the very foundations of our freedoms. I am VERY disappointed that a man I thought I could respect, John McCain, is one of the sponsors. It goes against the very structure of his past acts as a veteran.

This provision protects none of us. Instead, it is the first step to putting ANY of us behind bars. After all who among us haven't disagreed with something the government has done in the past?

Right now the definition of 'enemy combatants' is restricted to members of Al Queada and the Taliban. But when the next white supremacist group blows up a building full of children, or an Eco-group does a dual layer bombing that blows up a chemical research facility then the cops/paramedics/firemen, the definition will be expanded.

Then something else will happen. And it will be expanded again.

And again.

Till you are standing there alone, waiting for the knock on the door because everyone else is either arrested or too scared to help you.

We stand together, despite our differences or we fall separately. Ben Franklin was right when he said something like that at the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

Fear should never be our ruling instinct, it should be hope and a desire to help others not as lucky as others.   

[Oniya]

'We must all hang together, or most assuredly, we will all hang separately' - B. Franklin.  (Love that man's gift of phrasing!)

[Chris Brady]

Maybe it's from a comic, but this, for me says it all.

"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right.

This nation was founded on one principle above all else: The requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences.

When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree besides the river of truth, and tell the whole world--

--No you move." Captain America, Amazing Spiderman, #537

[Oniya]

Maybe it's from a comic, but this, for me says it all.

"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right.

This nation was founded on one principle above all else: The requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences.

When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree besides the river of truth, and tell the whole world--

--No you move." Captain America, Amazing Spiderman, #537

Or you tell them:  I'm a lighthouse.  Your call.   

[Callie Del Noire]

Or you tell them:  I'm a lighthouse.  Your call. 

I like that Cap was quoting Mark Twain. I on the whole dislike the entire Civil War Storyline..but Cap has some of the BEST and most Relevant points in the storyline.

[Braioch]

It's sad that I am not surprised by this, horrified and pissed, yes, surprised in the slightest way? Hell no.

It's amazing how they try to slip stuff like that in all the time, they tried to do something that was definitely saying 'fuck the line' in Michigan involving calling an area a crisis area and sending in a government representative (didn't even have to be a of the government, merely someone they chose) who came in and would have full control. Of course the stipulation was that the area was declared a crisis area by...you guessed it, the government. (Need source, will do so after sleep)

Either way I just keep watching all these things keep trying to happen and I keep wondering where this country is headed, and if it remains stagnant like it is, nowhere good. Yet people are putting up more of a fuss than usual about all kinds of things (which Europe of course is still waiting for our people to put up a real fight like they do, I'm sure) so perhaps there is hope. I'm curious to see what they'll try next if this fails and where the hell this country is going.

[Haloriel]

I second that statement, Braioch.  It isn't the least bit surprising, and I often sigh at people that give opinions without any understanding of facts or understanding of United States History at least.  News website commentary especially makes me want to stick my head in the sand.  I feel politicians do not think enough about the provisions they are endorsing - as if the further restrictions could never affect -their- families.

Yet - I am one always to keep in mind that we have greater freedoms than many countries.

[Callie Del Noire]

Not with a roar.. but a whimper do our freedoms die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_7mwP5Di5NE#!

I have concerns about the editing of the speech, but apparently the content of what the president is said is clear. 'Prolonged Detention' is coming.

I don't support terrorism.. but giving up freedoms, even for those we are in conflict with, gives the Terrorists what they want.

[NotoriusBEN]

Should Obama just get the papermate liquid paper and a black robe and just start saying "something something darkside, something something complete."  ?

[Iniquitous]

Not with a roar.. but a whimper do our freedoms die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_7mwP5Di5NE#!

I have concerns about the editing of the speech, but apparently the content of what the president is said is clear. 'Prolonged Detention' is coming.

I don't support terrorism.. but giving up freedoms, even for those we are in conflict with, gives the Terrorists what they want.

Anyone that is familiar with Alex Jones knows that he has been saying for years now that the government was preparing for this. He's done videos of the FEMA "death" camps, the enormous quantities of containers that he says will hold the bodies of those that die in the FEMA camps. It's worrying to see this coming.

[Braioch]

Not with a roar.. but a whimper do our freedoms die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_7mwP5Di5NE#!

I have concerns about the editing of the speech, but apparently the content of what the president is said is clear. 'Prolonged Detention' is coming.

I don't support terrorism.. but giving up freedoms, even for those we are in conflict with, gives the Terrorists what they want.

That video is defined by me as simply this: "Fuck. Me."

I'm not a paranoid individual in regards to the government, and certainly not a 'slippery slope' kind of guy. Yet this makes me so uneasy I can't help but shifty eye the groups for this and wonder what the hell they're after. The conspiracy nuts are looking a little less nuts when the government whips this kind of shit out of their pants.

I loathe to think as to where this is going to lead.

[VuurMeester]

Not with a roar.. but a whimper do our freedoms die.

I have seen this video before. Close to a year ago. Whether or not Obama approves of this new legislation, this video and thus speech, was made long before it was proposed.

Obama Justifies FEMA imprisonment of civilians!

[Oniya]

More than a year ago.  I found a video dated 2009. 

Obamas Preventative/Prolonged Detention Plan


I'm looking for the full text of the speech.  Edit: Looks like it's here. I'm basing this due to date proximity to the oldest video, and I suspect that we might be looking at clever editing.

[VuurMeester]

I'm pretty sure we are looking at creative editing. That entire video screams political propaganda to me. Not only are they making very selective cuts of what is almost definitely a long speech, they are comparing it to orwellian scenarios AND making leaps of logics from what he said to something that he almost definitely didn't mean.

[Callie Del Noire]

I'm pretty sure we are looking at creative editing. That entire video screams political propaganda to me. Not only are they making very selective cuts of what is almost definitely a long speech, they are comparing it to orwellian scenarios AND making leaps of logics from what he said to something that he almost definitely didn't mean.

Thank you. My google fu isn't the best but given the current issues coming up with the new National Defense Authorization I had to wonder. It seemed to be in step with what that act was trying to do.

[Haloriel]

Yes.  The whole speech is rather different, I must say, after I read through it.  Thank you, Oniya.     I think I actually remember that speech, come to think of it.