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Author Topic: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage  (Read 1502 times)

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Offline auroraChloeTopic starter

... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« on: December 01, 2011, 08:19:41 AM »
ran across this and wanted to share.....     
(from feb 2011, so it might be old news to some)

Zach Wahls Speaks About Family

Offline Zakharra

Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2011, 08:32:03 AM »
 That's good. He's a very well spoken young man.

Offline Caela

Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2011, 09:27:41 AM »
You can just tell listening to him that being raised by a gay couple was entirely detrimental to his social, emotional, and educational development! What were they thinking!!! /end sarcasm

He is a very articulate young man who clearly loves and is loyal to his family. This is the type of young person most parents strive to raise and so many fail to hit the bar on. I think his mother's did an excellent job raising him. Good for them on the job they did with him, and good for him in being confident enough to get up in front of his state congress and speak out so openly.

Offline Envious

Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2011, 11:13:12 AM »
He laid it on thick- I love it.

Offline Serephino

Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2011, 07:04:21 PM »
I really liked his speech.  He's well spoken and has done well for himself.  Of course, there will always be people who claim he's an exception to the rule to cling onto their archaic and misguided beliefs, but one can hope this guy will reach at least a few people. 

Offline Jude

Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2011, 07:33:51 PM »
I like this guy and he's a good counterexample to the idea of "children raised in same sex marriages cannot be functioning members of society."  Unfortunately, he's broadening the conclusion to "same-sex are every bit as good as straight parents" which is a fallacy of argument from final consequences.  His status in no way affirms the premise.  It's like walking through a field, looking down at your legs, and saying "they're still here, so there must be no mines buried there."  It could be the path he took, maybe a mine did go off and didn't affect him in an obvious way, etc.

Now, the evidence as far as I'm aware of it, actually does indicate that there isn't serious harm done by same sex parenting.  I support full adoption rights for gay couples and don't think they should be discriminated against for their orientation, but I also think it's important to point out arguments that are at their core illogical even if they promote things you believe to be positive.

Offline Oniya

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Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2011, 09:59:50 PM »
...  Can you tell me at what point he turns it from a specific case into a general case?  I'm not hearing it.

Offline auroraChloeTopic starter

Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2011, 01:30:56 PM »
debate jargon aside, i am impressed with the kid regardless of who his parents are.  to see such well adjusted son in this day and age is nearly a miracle in ANY family.

Offline Oniya

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Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2011, 01:35:35 PM »
So true.

Offline Trieste

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Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2011, 03:47:20 PM »
...  Can you tell me at what point he turns it from a specific case into a general case?  I'm not hearing it.

I would like to know this as well.

Offline Jude

Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 09:04:55 PM »
...  Can you tell me at what point he turns it from a specific case into a general case?  I'm not hearing it.
Given he's speaking during a hearing about a general rule, I don't think it's a stretch to assume he's trying to make a general point.  If you disagree with that assumption, fine, you're within your rights, but I don't know what to tell you.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 09:06:30 PM by Jude »

Offline Trieste

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Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2011, 09:16:12 PM »
So you're talking about an assumption that you've made about what he's saying about his family, and you're trying to invalidate his point using a logical fallacy based on that assumption.

Do I have that correct?

Offline Jude

Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2011, 10:49:54 PM »
Well, no, I would be invalidating a point he wasn't making, not his point.  It would only be invalidating his point if he made it.

Offline Trieste

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Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 10:56:37 PM »
Okay, so without having made the point that you're assuming he's making, can his speech really be fallacious as you stated? That's the part I'm trying to understand, quoted for emphasis below.

Unfortunately, he's broadening the conclusion to "same-sex are every bit as good as straight parents" which is a fallacy of argument from final consequences.

His concluding line that the sexual orientation of his parents has nothing to do with the content of his character seems to contradict this.

Offline Jude

Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2011, 11:03:30 PM »
That quote is presumptive and fallacious too however.  He has no way of knowing if his parent's sexual orientation changed the content of his character for better or for worse or not at all, because there is not another one of him wandering around out there in the world where, all things equal, he had straight parents to act as a point of comparison.

That's the point I'm trying to make -- his arguments are emotionally satisfying but they are anecdotal and not empirically sound.

Offline Trieste

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Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 05:45:36 AM »
If you would like to call his final sentence fallacious, okay, but that's not what you originally posited. The original fallacy you brought up was argument from final consequences because he was applying his results to the wider population base. Oniya asked, and I would also like to know, specifically what brought you to that conclusion.

Offline Envious

Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2011, 12:37:34 PM »
Well, the way I perceived Jude's comment was that the speaker is saying: I was raised by a gay couple and I came out fine. He is using himself as a standard of measure for children who are raised by same-sex couples and because he came out fine, the rest will.

Offline Saffron

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Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2011, 09:01:25 PM »
Would it not be true then, that because I was raised by straight parents, all children raised by straight parents will turn out just fine?

We know that's not the case. There are good people and bad people of all sexualities and their are good parents and bad parents of all sexualities as well. I don't think he's trying to use himself as a standard, but simply showing that sexuality does not make or break a person's ability or inability to parent. If there's a good case, there's a bad one too, and this can be applied to all types of families, not just ones with homosexual parents.

I really liked this video and was going to share it in the good and cuddly but Caeli had beaten me to it. He's a nice young man and I hope his point did not fall on deaf ears.

Offline auroraChloeTopic starter

Re: ... and he's so well spoken too. #LGBT #family #marriage
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2011, 09:25:35 AM »
I don't think he's trying to use himself as a standard, but simply showing that sexuality does not make or break a person's ability or inability to parent.

that's pretty much what i took away from it.  thanks for putting it so well, Saffron.