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Author Topic: Scott Walker, Union Buster  (Read 26759 times)

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Offline Trieste

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Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #250 on: March 09, 2011, 09:52:16 PM »
Sorry, it must have been drowned out by the media channels, most of which exonerating them for their "honorable deeds."

I meant earlier in the topic.

The problem with "two wrongs don't make a right" sentiment is that by bypassing procedural protocol, the precedent is set that bypassing is the only way either side is going to win. It's more or less cheaters vs. cheaters.

The thing is that they started out pretty much telling the Dems, "We will outvote you, whether you like it or not." whereas on the healthcare reform (I assume you're still talking about healthcare reform when you refer to both sides bypassing procedural protocol, since you mentioned it before) there was at least some semblance of, "Give us some ideas instead of shouting NO NO NO NO NO NO NO and we will see what we can come up with". The GOP turned around and bitched about the length of the bill, for chrissake. They finally threatened reconciliation rules as a last resort. Even given that, I was very uncomfortable with the move, though I'm not all that liberal by Dem standards, so that's probably no surprise.

What the Dems in WI did was outright wrong. What they did was sympathetic and understandable and a gamble, but it was wrong. What the GOP is doing in WI is also wrong. Putting the union issues aside - that is, setting aside my feelings on unions and expecting you to do the same, Lyell, for the purposes of this thread (there is another thread to discuss unions, after all) - what the GOP has done, spearheaded by Walker, is wrong. As much as I would love to say, "Well, Wisconsin, you voted a bunch of Republicans into office and you kinda made your own bed", I can't do that. Right now, the people who voted for Democrat reps are being screwed over, sure, but the people who voted for the GOP folks currently in office are also being screwed. Scott Walker, for example, ran on a platform of "moar jobs!". That was his schtick. It was kind of like Scott Brown and his truck. (Scott Brown's campaign was based on cutting spending and keeping it simple in Washington.) To turn around and do something totally different than what you were voted into office for is essentially taking advantage of the trust put in you by the voting system. And it damages our political process. Can you imagine what a different country we would be if politicians actually kept campaign promises? I think elections would be easier.

So yeah, two wrongs don't make a right, but one thing can be more wrong than the other. And what Scott Walker is doing is way, way, way fuckin' wrong.

Offline Lyell

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #251 on: March 09, 2011, 10:47:08 PM »
Where in my last post did I mention the health care bill? Everyone keeps telling me to limit my perspective to this issue and the conditions surrounding it specifically and I did just that. The people voted in a republican majority into the senate -those who voted atleast. Walker had the odds stacked in his favor and decided to propose a controversial bill under conditions where he knew it would pass. The precedent for dirty politics was set when the democrats fled the state to freeze state fiscal proceedings, not by the healthcare bill. Despite the loopholes available to Congress, republican representatives staunchly defied democrats' healthcare reform bill within the bounds available to them, not by fleeing. Comparing the two situations is inaccurate. Perhaps if the democrat representatives had stayed but expressed their dissent, it would be comparable.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #252 on: March 09, 2011, 11:46:02 PM »
Sorry, it must have been drowned out by the media channels, most of which exonerating them for their "honorable deeds."

Would these be the media channels owned by multinational conglomerates (NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, Fox, etc.)?  Or are we talking Al-Jazeera?

Offline Lyell

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #253 on: March 10, 2011, 12:01:23 AM »
Would these be the media channels owned by multinational conglomerates (NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, Fox, etc.)?  Or are we talking Al-Jazeera?

Multinational conglomerates.

Oh, and you don't have to post all of the so-called lies. Just the ones that refute the points you want to dismiss. :)

So I actually read the post linked to Scott Walker claiming to have campaigned on curtailing collective bargaining. It seems to me, despite complete lack of specific, direct, public announcement Politifact is acknowledging a lack of capacity to read between the lines.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #254 on: March 10, 2011, 12:15:44 AM »
Really?

You're saying that despite the fact he didn't once say anything during his campaign (publically at least) we're supposed to have read 'between' the lines to spot it?


Offline Lyell

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #255 on: March 10, 2011, 12:24:49 AM »
"He gave one example: a Walker proposal in July, 2010 to allow local units of government to switch from health plans that have high premiums to the stateís lower cost employee health plan.

Walkerís camp said at the time that the switch would not have to be negotiated with unions; Walker would move to take the choice out of the collective bargaining process, they said. Labor officials disagreed and said they would fight attempts to change the collective bargaining law.

Werwie also pointed to a campaign flier circulated by the American Federation of Teachers-Wisconsin, a union representing 17,000 public employees in the state.

In addition to criticizing Walker comments on benefit cuts, the AFT flier notes a Walker comment about freeing up local governments from being "strangled" by mediation. And it points out his comment on the health plan switch he proposed in July --the one that would take the choice of health plans off the table for unions."

"He told the Appleton Post-Crescent in a lengthy question and answer session in 2009 that "you've got to free up local government officials to not be strangled by things like mediation and arbitration." As his website made clear, he was talking about a specific, significant change in teacherís union arbitration."

"In October, as Walker held a steady lead in opinion polls over his Democratic opponent, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, rumors circulated in union circles about Walker favoring a major power grab from unions.

Thatís according to Richard Abelson, who heads District Council 48 of the American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees, which had negotiated with Walker for eight years in his position as Milwaukee County executive.

Abelson, whose union endorsed Barrett, said: 'We heard rumors he would remove pension and health as mandatory subjects of bargaining.'"

"Jeff Stone, a Republican state representative from Greendale, was the source of the notion, Abelson said. The two had a meeting as Stone laid the groundwork for a run for Walkerís soon-to-be-vacant county job.

Stone confirmed for us that he told Abelson before the election he thought Walker might propose the bolder course. He said Walker told him nothing; he guessed it from Walkerís emphasis on cost cutting and the deficits plaguing the state budget. "This was the only way I could see he could do it," Stone said about balancing the state budget.

But the sweep of Walkerís eventual proposal caught even Stone off guard. "Yeah, I was a little surprised (he put it all in)," Stone said. "But I also understand if you donít control those things you will have trouble controlling costs."

Abelson, the union leader, said Walkerís February announcement of his plan "went far beyond what anybody thought he would do. He didnít talk about it during the campaign. If he had said that, some people who supported him would have had some second thoughts."

So yeah, it sounds like the dots weren't just connected, but were done so by union heads AND fellow republicans who didn't think Walker had the balls to pass that kind of legislation. Why they would dismiss something so sensitive? I do not know. 

Offline Jude

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #256 on: March 10, 2011, 12:50:47 AM »
I'm disappointed in both sides and don't understand what the point is in asking which is worse.  They've all made a mockery of the Democratic process with their actions, it doesn't matter who did it more.  Walker, every Republican who colluded with him, and all of the Democrats who are hiding out in Illinois should never, ever be voted into office again.  It doesn't matter who cheated first, fighting fire with fire is still arson.  If we don't demand more of our elected officials, we'll never get it.  Wrong is wrong, the only excuse for circumventing the rule of law and the spirit of our Democratic Republic is a real State of Emergency.

There's no shortage of principled people who could step into their place and represent the same ideals that they do while playing fair.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 12:53:52 AM by Jude »

Offline Lyell

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #257 on: March 10, 2011, 12:59:33 AM »
Interesting tidbit, the vote to pass law to allow seizure (actually, I'm pretty sure seizure is limited to property, not sure what the legalese is regarding people) of the democrats hiding out in Illinois passed 19-0, but the altered proposal that separated the fiscal language from the union busting passed with a vote of 18-1. 

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #258 on: March 10, 2011, 01:36:26 AM »
Multinational conglomerates.

Then I'm sure you understand why I view the perspective that the media has a liberal, working-class bias with a healthy degree of skepticism.

Offline Lyell

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #259 on: March 10, 2011, 01:46:14 AM »
Then I'm sure you understand why I view the perspective that the media has a liberal, working-class bias with a healthy degree of skepticism.

Oops! Misworded that. I meant to type that media outlets were reporting that the senators who fled were being regaled as heroes.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #260 on: March 10, 2011, 01:50:26 AM »
Oops! Misworded that. I meant to type that media outlets were reporting that the senators who fled were being regaled as heroes.

Ah...that makes more sense.  Thanks for clarifying.

Offline ValerianTopic starter

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #261 on: March 10, 2011, 06:59:23 AM »
Despite the loopholes available to Congress, republican representatives staunchly defied democrats' healthcare reform bill within the bounds available to them, not by fleeing. Comparing the two situations is inaccurate.
Yes, it is inaccurate, because if the Republicans had left, it wouldn't have accomplished anything.  The Democrats would still have had a quorum and would simply have passed the legislation without them.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #262 on: March 10, 2011, 07:22:27 AM »
Also, the one voting against was Schultz - who had said he would not vote for the legislation, I believe.

Offline ValerianTopic starter

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #263 on: March 10, 2011, 07:46:45 AM »
Yes, Dale Schultz, the Republican who proposed a compromise version of the bill that would limit collective bargaining for two years (the length of the next budget), said he wouldn't vote for Walker's version, and has apparently kept to that.

Offline ValerianTopic starter

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #264 on: March 10, 2011, 10:26:07 AM »
Apologies for the double post.  I just ran across some numbers for the recall effort currently underway against some of the Republican senators. 

Quote
Graeme Zielinski, a spokesman for the party, tells me that activists working on the recall push already collected over the weekend 15 percent of the total necessary signatures needed to force recalls in all eight of the GOP districts Dems are targeting. He says that the party -- which is helping to coordinate and keeping track of outside efforts to gather signatures -- set itself a goal of 10,000 signatures for the weekend, and has already exceeded it by 35 percent.

Zielinski also claims that recall forces over the weekend put more than 2,000 volunteers on the street to collect signatures. He also says volunteers have collected 26 percent of the signatures required in one district, and 20 percent in another, though he wouldn't say which ones, because Dems want GOP senators to fret that they are the ones in question.
...
In case you're tempted to regard these numbers with skepticism, given the source, keep in mind that they could be easily disproved -- and Wisconsin Dems caught inflating numbers -- if organizers were to end up falling well short of the required signatures.

As an example, the highest number of signatures needed for any of the Republican senators is 20,973 for Mary Lazich of New Berlin, which is 25% of the people who voted in the election that put her into office.  Organizers have 60 days to collect enough signatures, a time frame which began on 3 March, when the papers were filed.

I've tried to find specific numbers as to how many signatures the Walker supporters have gathered in their efforts to recall the Democratic senators, but no luck.  All I've got is the quote below, which I found on this blog.

Quote
By contrast, Juston Johnson, a GOP operative who is helping the Wisconsin GOP coordinate the recall efforts tells POLITICO, "While the State Party is assisting the local grassroots organizations that are circulating petitions to recall the Democrat Senators hiding in Illinois, we're respecting the wishes of the local organizers not to divulge their information."

Amusingly, Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald started musing yesterday about whether or not Wisconsin's recall laws were truly fair.  It is unusual to have recall laws -- only 18 states do -- so I can certainly understand wanting to take a look at them again once in a while; but like the legislation against prank phone calls, the timing on this is suspicious.

Offline Rhys

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #265 on: March 10, 2011, 10:55:15 AM »
The capital has just been locked down as Walker and company continue ramming the union busting down our throats.

The more I see of this the more I worry that its only a matter of time before the powder keg's set off and we see violence in Madison. I know the protesters have prided themselves on being civil but I hear a growing contingent saying things along the lines of 'When civil protest is ignored, the only option is to get uncivil." And frankly, if that happens, Walker only has himself to blame. One day they're saying there's now room for compromise and the next they pull this crap? Way to prove everything the protesters have been saying since day 1.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #266 on: March 10, 2011, 11:41:24 AM »
I am genuinely curious to see how fast the ink will dry on this law before it's in the courts. Hours or days?

Honestly you can't really expect with this much attention for it to stand. Of course things will be really fun if now that he has EVERYONE'S attention if Governor Walker continues the plans he's announced. Like the sell off, by closed bid, of the public utilities.

That looks to be a really stupid move given how things are going. I mean what is the first thing a private interest is going to do when they take them over. Lay off MORE workers and look for ways to raise rates to recoup their investment.

Offline ValerianTopic starter

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #267 on: March 10, 2011, 11:46:24 AM »
The Wisconsin State Journal is saying that one entrance to the building is now open, with anyone who enters being screened for weapons.  At least 100 or so protesters were dragged out, but apparently no one was arrested.

They're supposed to be in session now, but even legislators are having trouble getting in.
Quote
Rep. David Cullen, D-Milwaukee, said he had to climb through a window in the office of Sen. Chris Larson, D-Milwaukee.

They're also saying that several of the absent Democratic senators are returning, though not all of them are bothering, since with the truncated bill passed, there's no longer much to be done from their end; and at this point there's only one day left of the current session anyway.  Sessions open again on 5 April.

State law says that 24 hours' notice has to be given for a committee meeting, so that's probably where the legal action is going to come from -- this committee was called with just two hours' notice.  It will likely be harder to deal with the fiscal-not fiscal chameleon aspects of the bill, so I'm not surprised they're not tackling that right away.

I'm worried about the tensions, too.  It only takes one person (on either side) to decide on tougher action for things to go horribly wrong.  Walker isn't helping to calm things down -- he's basically hiding at this point, which even his fellow Republicans think is the wrong thing to do.  He's leaving his allies exposed to take the heat, and making the Democrats and the protesters feel even more ignored.  I can't help thinking something's going to snap.  :(

Offline Lyell

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #268 on: March 10, 2011, 03:08:59 PM »
"Elections have consequences." -Barack Obama

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #269 on: March 10, 2011, 03:24:53 PM »
"Elections have consequences." -Barack Obama

So does doing something so blatantly stupid as to be called 'Political Suicide'.

I initially didn't like the Dem's move when they left the state. But given the chronic lack of cooperation/communication and such I don't know what I'd do differently.  This is clearly NOT a budgetary issue.  There are some elements of Walker's repair bill I support.

-Tuition for the children of Illegal Immigrants? That should never have been passed. Sorry.
-Early Release program cancelled. Half an Half on that. Depends on the type of the offender type. It could lighten the states load OR dump problems back on the state. (Of the last 470 something released.. 14 are already back in the system. That's what.. 2.9% in something like 2 weeks? needs revistiting.)

-A tuition program for Wisconson students who sign a pledge to be good students/citizens. They meet the requirements they get into college and get some tuition aid. (This one is on hold if I'm reading it right). It could be changed a little to up the requirements, maybe do some civil service/volunteer work. Could be good/could be bad. Don't know.

-The axing of access to contraception and elimination of funding to Planned Parenthood. That, while clearly part of Walker's supporters agenda, seems very counter-intuitive in the long run. You eliminate reproductive choices from the folks who need them, you're going to wind up with more babies.

His anti-union agenda has made it hard for me to look past that part. Some of his moves are sensible, some are clearly agenda/partisan, and some are 'what the hell is he thinking'? to me.

Cutting education as heavily as he did though, that won't be good in the long run.

Offline Lyell

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #270 on: March 10, 2011, 03:38:29 PM »
The more I see of this the more I worry that its only a matter of time before the powder keg's set off and we see violence in Madison. I know the protesters have prided themselves on being civil but I hear a growing contingent saying things along the lines of 'When civil protest is ignored, the only option is to get uncivil."

We're not going to get our way being peaceful, so let's get violent instead!

Apologies for the double post.  I just ran across some numbers for the recall effort currently underway against some of the Republican senators. 

As an example, the highest number of signatures needed for any of the Republican senators is 20,973 for Mary Lazich of New Berlin, which is 25% of the people who voted in the election that put her into office.  Organizers have 60 days to collect enough signatures, a time frame which began on 3 March, when the papers were filed.

I've tried to find specific numbers as to how many signatures the Walker supporters have gathered in their efforts to recall the Democratic senators, but no luck.  All I've got is the quote below, which I found on this blog.

Amusingly, Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald started musing yesterday about whether or not Wisconsin's recall laws were truly fair.  It is unusual to have recall laws -- only 18 states do -- so I can certainly understand wanting to take a look at them again once in a while; but like the legislation against prank phone calls, the timing on this is suspicious.

Since we can be pretty certain anyone in a union in WI is going to be signing that for one reason or another, can't we already assume a certain number?

Offline Trieste

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Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #271 on: March 10, 2011, 03:40:36 PM »
Lyell, do you have a point? Because the snipes and the attempts at pithiness are getting pretty old, and were never even close to funny.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #272 on: March 10, 2011, 03:46:50 PM »
We're not going to get our way being peaceful, so let's get violent instead!

What choice is Walker giving the other side? He refuses to even acknowledge them. The fact that there hasn't been any violence SO FAR tells me that the  protesters have astonishing resolve.

If you refuse to mediate, negotiate or even acknowledge the other side and do everything can to curtail their legal options what can you expect?

Just because you're in control of the state house AND the governor's mansion doesn't give you the right to ignore the dissenting side. It's poor political planning.

Offline Lyell

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #273 on: March 10, 2011, 08:21:39 PM »
Uh, core principal of democracy; majority rules. Unions use this principal when they initiate secret ballots in businesses where unions don't exist. If those opposed are in the minority, one happens anyways. Acknowledgement doesn't require bending to accept terms not found acceptable. I'm pretty sure they know opposition exists.

Offline itsbeenfun2000

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #274 on: March 10, 2011, 08:23:07 PM »
It wasn't the anger that should be worrying the state republicans when they showed raw footage of them leaving the capitol building last night and the protesters booing. It was at the end when they started chanting strike, strike, strike. Most strikes our out of principle with public employees not over wages and benefits. If the state goes on strike what next? The national guard can't teach.