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Author Topic: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...  (Read 5690 times)

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Offline National AcrobatTopic starter

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Alright, I've never understood why people say being against illegal immigration makes you a racist. I disagree strongly, as the laws are not discriminatory against any 'race', 'creed' or 'nationality'. If you are in a nation illegally, in violation of the laws of the nation, then you're breaking the law. Whether you are from Mars, Alpha Centauri, Mexico, China, Zimbabwe, et al. it still doesn't matter.

I've got several friends whose parents emigrated to America and did things the right way, and even though most of them consider themselves Democrats, they back enforcing the laws because they feel that everyone who comes to America needs to pay their dues and follow the rules just as their parents did on their path to legal citizenship.

It just perturbs me that people immediately brand someone in this country who simply wants the laws enforced as a 'racist'.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2007, 12:21:18 PM by National Acrobat »

Online RubySlippers

Re: Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2007, 12:15:24 PM »
Here, here! Why for example when a local town enforces the laws they get sued for violation of their authority by the ACLU and other groups. I just don't get that they are not determining immigration status that is already done if they don't have their legal papers  they are here illegally as in against the law. Why do immigrants have a problem with local authorites enforcing the laws of the land?

If a person is here without permission and they have trouble getting a place to live or work due to a local ordinances then that is not the community being racist- they are in violation of the law already and the community is respecting the laws of the land.

I have a good friend who was a Mexican citizen, joined our military and after serving was given his papers and citizenship with the help of the US Army. But anyone that fights for this nation and follows the law deserves citizenship in my opinion. There are legal avenues.

Offline Elvi

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2007, 03:59:43 PM »
I have always been a firm believer that if you are in a country, either as a resident or a visiter, then you abide by that countries laws.

However I have a problem actually 'ticking a box'.

B applies most certainly, however, C is also a deffinate in my books.

It is all so easy to look at a certain race and because of how they look, point the finger.
Back in the '70's and early '80's there was a problem with illegal imigrants and 'false' assylam seakers here in the UK.
It was very easy for the BNP (British Nationalist Party), then named the NF (National Front), to point the fingure at the 'coons', 'niggers' and 'Pakis' and forget the large illegal white population predominantly from South Africa and Australia.
Infact at the time there were more 'white' illegals then there were 'black'.

So yes.....an illegal immigrant is what they are and should be treated accordingly as long as there is no hidden agenda when dealing with those people.


 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2007, 04:02:00 PM by Elvi »

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2007, 05:07:55 PM »
I don't think that it's racist to prosecute illegal immigrants.
I do think that right now in USA, a significant group of people calling for strict treatment of immigrants happen to be members of racist groups.

Some Americans could maybe even be discouraged from voicing their support for tightening the immigration laws, because they don't want to be seen agreeing on something with white supremacists or other fringe groups.

Offline National AcrobatTopic starter

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Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2007, 07:37:56 PM »
I don't think that it's racist to prosecute illegal immigrants.
I do think that right now in USA, a significant group of people calling for strict treatment of immigrants happen to be members of racist groups.

Some Americans could maybe even be discouraged from voicing their support for tightening the immigration laws, because they don't want to be seen agreeing on something with white supremacists or other fringe groups.


You might be right, and while I certainly don't condone their actions, in fact I abhor what fringe elements do, people are just going to have to ignore it. The financial drain on communities, states and the Federal Government is enormous because of this issue, and in some places, my own home county included, it is straining the relations between the State/Local Governments and the Federal Government. It's getting a bit absurd.

This is one issue where the politicians in this country are totally disconnected from the general population, and in a big way.

Online Jefepato

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2007, 08:06:23 PM »
Could be racist, but not automatically.

The trouble is, illegal immigrants are sometimes better Americans than the Americans.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2007, 09:32:41 PM »
Well ideally the government could enforce its own immigration laws without the stigma of racism, though that is simply not the case.  The media is responsible, in large part, for people's view of Latin Americans as illegal immigrants.  Nightly a viewer can watch people crossing that border with a newscaster reading off that Latin Americans are the fastest growing minority.  This then prompts severe action which does target those immigrants specifically.  A great deal of the border patrol targets only "Mexicans" entering this country, yet nobody patrols the Canadian border at all unless they fear some sort of criminal escape.  Anytime the language debate emerges, Spanish tends to be the hotly contested language and more often than not Latin Americans are featured on most news stories regarding illegal immigration.

The problem is most illegal immigrants are people who have overstayed their VISAs.  Whether student, worker, or otherwise the most abundant population of immigrants are from Europe and Asia.  This of course makes sense as they are the areas most applying for permission to work and become students at American universities.  Also crimes committed by these illegal immigrants are not broadcasted, but tend to be kept quiet.  An example that comes to mind was prompted by an advocate for Latin American Immigration when she said that a German illegal immigrant stole a car, was driving recklessly on the highway, killed someone and the event was not brought into the debate.  Those are not the illegals making news, but rather the Mexican farm worker or the construction worker who makes the news. 

Demanding that laws be enforced is not inherently racist, but care needs to be shown when examining why that law was brought into effect and how well is that law being enforced over the spectrum.  Even among the Latin American group, dark skinned immigrants are harrassed more (whether illegal or not) and deported more often.

Offline robitusinz

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Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2007, 05:07:13 PM »
I think the problem with the illegal immigration issue is that it's based too much on ideals and not enough on reality.  Look, the reality is that there's a bunch of illegals in the US already, regardless of where they're from.  It's going to be very difficult to just kick them out of the country, as beautiful a plan as that may seem.  Consider the manpower necessary to do that, even if were just as simple as picking them up and throwing them on a bus.

What should be done is have a way for illegals to legally assimilate.  Increase border policing, and strengthen immigration policies.  Take care of the people that are here now...and by "take care", I don't mean that in a nice way.  I need more people to pay taxes and put cash into social security...the fuckers here just aren't breeding fast enough to make legal cash cows...errr, citizens.  I hope to retire someday and live off someone else's backs, and I could care less if the 21 year old McDonald's manager is named Scott, Roy, Ryan, LeRoy, Jethro, Juan, Miguel, Mustafa, Habib, Ivan, Seamus, or Nb'egda (with a little click sound in the middle somewhere), as long as he's paying up to Uncle Sam.

Frankly, illegal immigration is an issue because people way over our heads want it to be an issue.  There's a need for seasonal migrant workers to work in strawberry fields, we like being able to pay $10 for a car wash (inside too!), or $10 to have our lawns cut.  As much as we hate the idea of Chinese sweatshops, we've got'em in the US too, you just don't hear about them.

I hate to be so bold, but the illegal immigrant of today is the slave of yesteryear.  The Daddy Warbuckses don't wanna give up their cheap source of labor.

Offline Brittlby

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2007, 05:13:50 PM »
Whoa whoa... you're going to compare illegal immigration with slavery? There's a keen difference, being that of choice. Reduced cost to labor, exploitation of migrant workers, all of that I'll give you. But slaves? I don't think so.

Offline robitusinz

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Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2007, 05:22:24 PM »
Some middle-class dude:  "Hey, why don't we actually find a way of assimilating illegal immigrants so that they can pay taxes and have actual rights?"

Some rich dude:  "Uh...yeah...well...first they have to uh...speak the language (nevermind that money speaks enough for them)...and...uh...yeah...no, no, we have to stick with our laws!"  as an aside:  "C'mon, man, you're killing me here...do you really wanna give up all this cheap labor we've got now just to give some wetbacks a few rights?  Geez...I may have to raise the price on wheat on you a few cents if I can't get enough of these Mexicans to harvest it at $3 an hour!"

You fail to realize the pathetic conditions most of these people live in.  There are currently 12 people living in one apartment in my building, and I know because they spend most of the day with their front door open and their kids running around.  Sure, nobody's whipping them, but they're still being exploited to all hell, and it's very similar to slavery in that fashion.

As for choice...pfft...please...it's either starve in your home country with no chance for anything better (i.e. akin to serfs or peasants in feudal times), or starve in the US, but at least give your kids a chance to a better life.  So either way, someone's not eating.  :D

Offline Brittlby

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2007, 05:53:33 PM »
So... you're making the claim that being torn from your native country and forced to work without rights, suffering the burden of being little more then a commodity with little to no representation in court is comparable to struggling to come to America to eek out a living in the hopes that it will present opportunities for you and your children, while also providing better health care, sanitation, and scholastics?

I do NOT fail to realize the conditions some (not most) of "these people" live in. I LIVE in Texas. I've lived next to that family with 12 mouths under one roof. I've eaten with them. And a large chunk of what they make goes back to Mexico to the family they left behind. They didn't WANT to be citizens of this country!

It was a means to an end, and they were proud to be Guatamalan. Not Latin American. We DO have a means of applying for citizenship in place. It's long, arduous, and expensive, yes. But it's in place. No, we do NOT have the sweeping amnesty package that has been sought in recent years. Maybe we will, but not in the near future. Irregardless, they AREN'T being crushed under the weight of Jim Crow laws.

You make a number of good points, but comparing immigration to slavery is not one of them. It's not even defensible. They are completely seperate issues. Immigration, there WAS a choice. You illustrate that in many cases it's a shitty choice, but they're the ones making it, hoping for a better life.

Offline robitusinz

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Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2007, 06:18:04 PM »
You make a number of good points, but comparing immigration to slavery is not one of them. It's not even defensible. They are completely seperate issues. Immigration, there WAS a choice. You illustrate that in many cases it's a shitty choice, but they're the ones making it, hoping for a better life.

How about we meet in the middle?  Perhaps the force emigration doesn't apply to the US' illegals, but they are being exploited as if they were "non-persons".

And yes, we do have a long, and drawn-out process for legal immigration, but the point is that these people are here NOW.  I would like them to be actual productive members of society...that is, i want to see them pay taxes and chip in for social security.  I'm all for controlling our borders better, though, and staving off the massive illegal influx into this country, but we gotta deal with the ones that are already here.

If the choice boils down to amnesty (a term I find rather silly in this case...it's just a personal thing), or moving the inefficient mass that is the US government into action to prison and deport these individuals, then I go for amnesty.  In my opinion, the IRS is the most efficient government agency...Uncle Sam may slack off in some areas, but you ARE paying that fucker his due, no matter WHAT!  So let it become an IRS issue.  Screw it.  :D

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2007, 07:54:46 PM »
"In order for Satan to establish his 'New World Order' and destroy the freedom of all people as predicted in the Scriptures, he must first destroy the U.S.," his resolution states. "The mostly quiet and unspectacular invasion of illegal immigrants does not focus the attention of the nations the way open warfare does, but is all the more insidious for its stealth and innocuousness." by Don Larsen, a Republican Chairman for Provo County Utah.

While looking for information on this particular subject, I ran across this quote and just thought it rather funny.  So just a bit of humor while I go off doing more research.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2007, 04:26:52 AM »
I do believe Mr. Larsen needs his tinfoil hat adjusted.  Then the evil radiations from Xenu and his Mexican lackeys will no longer interfere with his brainwaves, and all will be right with the world...or at least the world of Mr. Larsen.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2007, 07:12:27 PM »
 Remember, be civil.

Offline Tobias Drake

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2007, 07:08:14 PM »
I'm going to make this short and sweet. I have no problem with immigration. A person or persons leaving their country to live in another country is fine. However, what gets me is the "illegal" aspect. This isn't about immigration being bad; it's about illegal being illegal; illegal is illegal is illegal.

For good, bad, or ugly, I believe it is the responsibility of people who enforce the law to enforce the law. That's not to say that the law is always right and never wrong, simply that this is the difference between being an enforcer of the law and...I dunno...a superhero or something; choosing to enforce the law means, for good or ill, that you need to enforce the law. At least, that's how I see it.

Offline Ryvaken

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2007, 11:40:44 PM »
You can't use the law as an excuse, however. Civil disobedience to racist laws is a necessity of all people. This is not to say that laws regulating immigration are racist, but rather that the potential exists for such abuse.

At the same time, no society can exist without rules, and they need to be enforced fairly, equitably, whenever possible. Immigration laws are no exception.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2007, 02:07:46 AM »
You can't use the law as an excuse, however. Civil disobedience to racist laws is a necessity of all people. This is not to say that laws regulating immigration are racist, but rather that the potential exists for such abuse.

At the same time, no society can exist without rules, and they need to be enforced fairly, equitably, whenever possible. Immigration laws are no exception.

 And the law is not being enforced as it should be. The law is blind. Not taking into account skin color, race or creed. Being for the enforcement of the immigration laws is no reason to call someone racist. Ever.

Offline Elvi

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2007, 03:19:36 AM »
While I agree with what you say Zakharra, I am at a loss as to what you have said relates to the quote you have put with it.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2007, 03:26:43 AM »
Well, I suppose one could say the law is blind.  The enforcement of a law though is never blind nor are the people who wrote out the law.  Simply look at the measures taken in the effort of controlling illegal immigration.  There is no massive push to fluff the ranks of the people in charge of investigating overstayed VISAs or enforce their deportation, but there is a drive for more border security guards.  European and Asian immigrants are not seeking a church for aslyum so that they can stay with their child and last time I checked we were trying to build a wall between us and Mexico.  Seems kind of one sided.

Offline Brittlby

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2007, 10:03:20 AM »
Possibly. But then let's also look at the numbers. As we share a border with Mexico what's the ratio of Latino immigrants to Asian and European? I suspect this is akin to Al Sharpton claiming Howard Dean, the governor of Vermont was racist based on the evidence of "There are no blacks in your Cabinet!" Which isn't really shocking if you consider Vermont has half of one percent that's African american.

Due to our physical proximity to Mexico, there's a great many more immigrating then there are from across the Atlantic. So while it may seem one sided and racist, it's just common sense to focus on the Latin American issue with greater stringency.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2007, 11:35:22 AM »
Well, I suppose one could say the law is blind.  The enforcement of a law though is never blind nor are the people who wrote out the law.  Simply look at the measures taken in the effort of controlling illegal immigration.  There is no massive push to fluff the ranks of the people in charge of investigating overstayed VISAs or enforce their deportation, but there is a drive for more border security guards.  European and Asian immigrants are not seeking a church for aslyum so that they can stay with their child and last time I checked we were trying to build a wall between us and Mexico.  Seems kind of one sided.

 We have a border with Mexico, that means that many people come across from there. The fact that Mexico is a  nation of Latins means nothing. Putting the fnece up only makes sense. It does have a deterring effect, it helps slow down the easiest way to get into the nation.

 
While I agree with what you say Zakharra, I am at a loss as to what you have said relates to the quote you have put with it.

  Elvi, I don't always say things clearly  ::)  I meant to say that the law is being called racist, when it is not. The fact that most of the people who come over the border are of a certain ethnicity means nothing and people who want the border enforced, by people and a wall, something that Mexico uses on it's own borders, should not be called racist unless they are against the people of that race.

Quote
last time I checked we were trying to build a wall between us and Mexico.  Seems kind of one sided.

 Because Mexico is next door. It needs to be built. The latest estimate that I saw say that roughly 10% of Mexico's population is in the US.

 Which the vast majority are not. Border security is something that people on both sided

Offline National AcrobatTopic starter

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Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2007, 01:08:27 PM »
Possibly. But then let's also look at the numbers. As we share a border with Mexico what's the ratio of Latino immigrants to Asian and European? I suspect this is akin to Al Sharpton claiming Howard Dean, the governor of Vermont was racist based on the evidence of "There are no blacks in your Cabinet!" Which isn't really shocking if you consider Vermont has half of one percent that's African american.

Due to our physical proximity to Mexico, there's a great many more immigrating then there are from across the Atlantic. So while it may seem one sided and racist, it's just common sense to focus on the Latin American issue with greater stringency.

I agree with this 100%, and so does my stepfather, who is Canadien. He has said the same, that if it were Canada where the majority of them came from, he'd expect the wall to be built along the canadien border, and he'd have no problem with it.

I am not against immigration either, but illegal is illegal. I've got friends who are from families that emigrated (Cuba, Mexico and Russia) and they agree. They came the legal way and paid their dues, and they are incensed because people want a free ride.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2007, 09:28:45 PM »
One problem you can point to with Canada in comparison to Mexico is that we are far more likely to accept their citizens to work here, without their immigration to this country.  To be fair we also have quite a few people they drive to their area in order to work, but our relationship with that country is far more benign than Mexico.  So perhaps if we offered as much leeway in worker programs for Mexicans and made it easier for them to arrive here and seek employment, there might not be as large a probem with border crossing.  Taking into account the type of jobs that Canadians would be interested in taking in the United States and it becomes more peculiar that there are not as many laws preventing their worker entrance to this country.  In truth a wall is not really feasible with Canada, since all they would have to do is drive through the relatively untouched border between and even if stopped they would most likely have nothing to worry over.  Mexicans are crossing the border in order to find better work and often send the money back.  Instead of the United States pushing for a compromise in the situation, the general feeling seems to involve a wall and people with weapons.

Now as for illegal is illegal, that is well and good to say when the person stating such does not believe themselves in violation of a law.  Were every police force in the United States to start rigidly enforcing traffic laws, people would be in an uproar.  In truth if a person was stopped for going 66 in a 65 speed zone, they would be msot livid.  There is also the question of companies being reprimanded to the full extent of the law, which runs the risk of shutting them down.  For instance when Wal-Mart was found to have the illegal immigrant janitors, they did not suffer severe consequences even though law enforcement had recordings of the executives aware of their treatment.  Some of the treatment included locking those employees in the store, effectively imprisoning them.  No criminal charges were brought to those managers.

Illegal immigrants have told federal agents about neglectful conditions, harsh treatment, lack of pay, and have even said that often their citzenship was known at the time of hiring.  Border Patrol agents have sent internal memos to their managers regarding the condition of prisoners about to be deported and more than a few of those were then brought up on charges of housing an illegal immigrant.  Now if the government went after each and every employer without a mind for their wealth, race, and status then perhaps that would not be a problem.  Of course if the government did that, our agriculture industry would come to a grinding hault.  The small buisness construction companies, especially along Texas and California, would be crushed and alot of people would be put out of buisness.  The Guld Coast region would be taking painfully longer to rebuild itself and far more money would be spent for that labor.  So our enforcement of the law seems to be stricter at the illegal immigrant end of the bargain, than at the more well to do end of the spectrum.

Offline kongming

Re: Enforcing the Laws when Dealing with Illegal Immigration is...
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2007, 05:33:12 PM »
I recall someone once telling a friend "But they have to come here to Australia, to escape the harsh conditions of where they come from." as why we shouldn't arrest illegal immigrants. The friend pointed out that the majority of illegal immigrants in AU are from England and Ireland, overstaying their VISAs. Can someone from the UK tell me if it's really so bad that they need to escape to here? I know the weather is shite, but surely that's no reason to run off.

That being said, there have been a large number of cases of "target people who you might describe as 'ethnic'." - those from the Middle East, each copper allowed to interpret "Middle East" as whatever they like. Sometimes not even worrying about making sure they are in fact illegal. But those are cases of the law not being properly enforced. The law itself is just fine. "Get into Australia through the correct, legitimate channels and we will welcome you with open arms.*"

*Unless you're in Sydney and could be described as 'ethnic', in which case stay away from the drunk skin-heads.