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Author Topic: Dream Act  (Read 2977 times)

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Online ZeitgeistTopic starter

Dream Act
« on: December 18, 2010, 10:07:12 AM »
I want people to succeed, I really do. If a young person, whoever they are and from wherever they come, are genuinely driven to improve themselves and want to contribute to society, then I'm all for that.

That said, there are some significant problems with this bill, or at least the idea behind it. One it puts the cart before the horse. It completely ignores the larger issue of illegal immigration. The fact that there are people here as a result of their parents bringing them over the border is symptomatic of the larger problem. We are addressing the symptom rather than the real problem. Its politically expedient to vote for this measure because it's a "feel good" gesture that ignores the larger problem. It is indeed immature to argue for its passage while ignoring what's really going on.

Secondly, how in the hell are we supposed to verify the age of participants at the time when they were brought here, after the fact? They came over illegally and are undocumented. Are we supposed to just take their word? Isn't that naive? And won't this only encourage people to migrant here in larger numbers, more often than not illegally?

No, what this is is a means for Democrats to secure votes from Hispanics in future elections. Says something doesn't when a political party has to turn to foreign immigrants for their base votes.

Opposition to this bill doesn't mean someone is cruel and uncaring about the plight of innocent young people. There are some real and practical problems with the idea. To vote for and pass a bill like this solely on the idea it feels good is irresponsible. And yes, of course there are benefits one can imagine down the line, a more educated populous is less likely to turn to crime and drugs. I get that, but you can't ignore all the practical problems there are with implementing the program either.

Offline Jude

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2010, 12:23:01 PM »
Even though I feel like we'd have a largely differing opinion on Immigration, I completely agree with your assessment of this bill.  It doesn't solve the real issue, and it's just the Democrat's last-ditch effort on pleasing their base in hopes of an electoral rebound in the future.

If it gets passed it certainly won't be the end of the world, but it's far too open to exploitation in order to justify the marginal level of good it will do.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2010, 01:01:34 PM »
Most went to our public or private schools, so we can figure if they entered Kindergarden at 6 years old at the oldest and graduated high school they were here the majority of their lives. If born here there would be a proof of birth the signed and registered birth certificate.

My problem here is simple they make allowances for the college bound that get a degree, for those entering the military but what about those of adult age that are gainfully employed with no criminal record or attend a trade school or vocational two-year degree. I consider anyone productive who lived here all their lives or most of their lives as someone we should let stay. Just bar them from helping anyone else but a child of their own get into or stay in the US. But I don't understand the military demand they already let non-nationals that serve become citizens and give a strong benefit to immediate family under existing programs.

Online ZeitgeistTopic starter

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2010, 02:03:47 PM »
Most went to our public or private schools, so we can figure if they entered Kindergarden at 6 years old at the oldest and graduated high school they were here the majority of their lives. If born here there would be a proof of birth the signed and registered birth certificate.

That's a good point, I hadn't considered that. On the face of it I like the idea, it promotes good citizenship and combats crime and gang activity. I just don't have a whole lot of faith in the government's ability to manage a program like this competently and with an ability to minimize abuse of the program.

I wonder too, if by participating in this program someone isn't 'outing' their parents as illegal immigrants? And if the bill forbids such follow up, doesn't this support the amnesty argument?

Offline Noelle

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2010, 04:02:08 PM »
Quote
Says something doesn't when a political party has to turn to foreign immigrants for their base votes.

Are you confusing "foreign immigrants" with "illegal immigrants"? I really hope so, because stigmatizing immigrants alone as unworthy of our attention and "below" the average natural-born citizen is, to say the least, a very unrealistic and frankly kind of disgusting attitude. Even marginalizing illegal immigrants and referring to them in ways that make them less than human and ignoring the greater problem is disturbing on its own.

But really, I don't know -- What does it say about a political party that is doing things to benefit a group of people that comprise a significant number of our population and continue to drive, influence, and shape the present AND future of our country's demographics and workforce whether or not we like it? Do tell.

Online ZeitgeistTopic starter

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2010, 04:48:46 PM »
Are you confusing "foreign immigrants" with "illegal immigrants"? I really hope so, because stigmatizing immigrants alone as unworthy of our attention and "below" the average natural-born citizen is, to say the least, a very unrealistic and frankly kind of disgusting attitude. Even marginalizing illegal immigrants and referring to them in ways that make them less than human and ignoring the greater problem is disturbing on its own.

But really, I don't know -- What does it say about a political party that is doing things to benefit a group of people that comprise a significant number of our population and continue to drive, influence, and shape the present AND future of our country's demographics and workforce whether or not we like it? Do tell.

How about foreign illegal immigrant? Last time I checked Mexico is a foreign country. And yes, if a political party has to turn to appealing and appeasing an immigrant population for votes, that's pathetic. Their first and foremost concern should be the natural born, legal citizens they were voted to represent.

I'm not suggesting they be discarded out of hand, but if that is where you go to get the lion's share of your votes and support, who the hell do you represent anyway?

If you think illegal Mexican immigrants are on par with other legal citizens, well then perhaps we should just merge the whole country of Mexico in as a state and appoint them representatives and senators. At least then it would be legitimate.

Offline Jude

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2010, 05:03:38 PM »
You seem to think that natural born citizens deserve more consideration from your posts.  Are you saying we should treat foreign-born citizens like second class citizens then?  That's the jist of your comments, but I want to be sure I'm not taking you out of context.

Online ZeitgeistTopic starter

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2010, 05:47:02 PM »
You seem to think that natural born citizens deserve more consideration from your posts.  Are you saying we should treat foreign-born citizens like second class citizens then?  That's the jist of your comments, but I want to be sure I'm not taking you out of context.

If they've come here by illegal means, I'm not so sure they should automatically be presumed to have all the same rights, and privileges as people who are here legally, be they natural born or or otherwise legal citizens.

The responsible and humane thing to do would be to properly secure the borders, as well as reform (enforce) employment laws. Many of these immigrants are used, abused and otherwise taken advantage of along the border crossings and border towns.

Offline Noelle

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2010, 08:26:16 PM »
How about foreign illegal immigrant? Last time I checked Mexico is a foreign country. And yes, if a political party has to turn to appealing and appeasing an immigrant population for votes, that's pathetic. Their first and foremost concern should be the natural born, legal citizens they were voted to represent.

I'm not suggesting they be discarded out of hand, but if that is where you go to get the lion's share of your votes and support, who the hell do you represent anyway?

If you think illegal Mexican immigrants are on par with other legal citizens, well then perhaps we should just merge the whole country of Mexico in as a state and appoint them representatives and senators. At least then it would be legitimate.

No, I was making the distinction because "foreign immigrant" and "illegal immigrant" are not interchangeable terms. By its very nature, the word 'immigrant' tends to be synonymous with 'foreign', and the absence of the word 'illegal' would probably suggest that they are green-card-holding citizens. I cannot with good conscience say that we need to create some kind of socio-political hierarchy of which American citizen is better than the other based on whether they were born here or were naturalized and given a green card. There's a reason that naturalized citizens with a legal green card have all the same rights as you or me -- it's because they have been granted equal status as you or me and not any kind of skewed notion of "separate but equal". Take your castes elsewhere.

Is it okay to pander to the religious and fear-monger for your votes, but target immigrants who can legally vote and it's sad? Terrible logic.  And what kind of "lion's share" are we talking? The Hispanic population is by no means the majority in the country and you have to also take into account how many of them actually go out and vote when it counts, which further cuts their minority figures. If neither party represents them, then do tell, who will?

All of this isn't even touching on illegal immigrants. I'm not suggesting that they be given the same rights as a natural-born or card-holding citizen, I couldn't agree to that at all, and I even agree that there should be steps taken to not only reduce the amount of illegal crossings, but to make the legal method easier and more accessible -- but there's a big, glaring hole in your 'concern' for their well-being. Yes, you talk about "responsible and humane" and how they're "taken advantage of", but then you shove distaste on those who are trying to represent them. Who do you think is going to if it's dirty and distasteful for politicians to?  The reality of it is, rounding up the millions who are already here is impossible, impractical, and frankly unhealthy for the state of our economy. If you want to talk about basic responsibility and showing some humanity, I would first suggest considering the worth of the individuals who have already established a life here and have contributed positively instead of dehumanizing them.

Acting in the interest of the minority has never been pathetic -- in fact, it's exactly one of the reasons that America does so well as a place of diversity not just in race, but in orientation, financial status, basic beliefs, etc. I don't agree with all of the ideas Democrats have had, I am certainly with you that they need to ensure that any loopholes in bills like this are sealed so they can't be exploited, but speaking on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves is a far more compassionate and responsible and realistic and humane thing to do than to pretend that you can build a wall or give people more guns or round them up in a giant truck and send them back. Illegals probably aren't voting -- and neither are the homeless, those deeply in poverty, the unborn, or animals, but there are still parties trying to act in their interest to create a more stable, responsible, and humane society.

Offline Jude

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2010, 08:53:07 PM »
I wasn't asking about illegal immigrants.  I was asking about foreign born citizens, and your statements seem to imply that you feel that foreign born citizens should not be given equal importance as natural born citizens.  I don't feel like you've answered my question.

Offline mystictiger

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2010, 08:59:47 PM »
Maybe I'm just splitting hairs, but surely imigrant already includes the word foreign? As in - you can't have a domestic imigrant.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2010, 09:36:55 PM »
A better set of terms would probably be 'legal immigrant' - those who are seeking to become naturalized citizens through the existing channels, 'illegal immigrants' - those who have chosen to bypass the existing channels, but want to remain permanent residents, and 'foreign nationals' - those who are in the country for legitimate reasons (school, employment, etc.) but have not gone through the process of becoming naturalized citizens, and may decide not to.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2010, 11:43:10 PM »
Socio-political hierarchy.  Yeah, no thanks.  I'm a Canadian born immigrant who came to the U.S. when I was five and have lived here ever since.  I am a green card carrying member who has been trying to get citizenship for ten years solid.  The system and the bureaucracy is so choked and full of red tape, let alone incredibly expensive, that becoming a citizen through the legal methods is amazingly awkward.  I honestly quit trying after they lost my paperwork for the third time.

I don't care to be labeled a second class citizen just because I was born in another country.  I pay my taxes, I do my civil duties, and I contribute to society positively.  What you are saying about immigrants as a whole is both a rash generalization of the multitude of cultures and people coming into the U.S. in search of a better life and unfairly inhumane.  People are people, folks.  We need to find a better system so people can be make the leap to citizenship legally instead of having to come here illegal.  Do I support illegal immigration?  No.  Not at all.  I just think we need to offer more avenues to people of other nationalities before throwing a fence around our borders.

Perhaps we should focus on fixing the system first before just trying to slap another band aid on it.  That's really what seems to be happening here.


Online ZeitgeistTopic starter

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2010, 11:46:41 AM »
I wasn't asking about illegal immigrants.  I was asking about foreign born citizens, and your statements seem to imply that you feel that foreign born citizens should not be given equal importance as natural born citizens.  I don't feel like you've answered my question.

No, I wouldn't suggest foreign born citizens here legally be treated any differently than a natural born citizen of the US.

But if you are here illegally, i.e. a Mexican immigrant who crossed the border, you should not be given the right to vote or state resident tuition rates, for example. The issue is obviously rather complex and out of control, so there are very few good solutions. I'm all for diversity and our country as a melting pot, I just think it needs to be above board.

Noelle - I don't know if we are as far off from one another as it may seem. For sure we want to protect and look after minorities and people at disadvantage. Insofar as immigrants, illegal ones, I just don't think it is an unreasonable position that we insist people come here in an orderly and legal fashion. The realities of the situation, as I say above, is complex and out of control, so it's going to be a generational process and no one bill out of Congress will resolve this.

Offline Jude

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 12:23:47 PM »
I'm confused as to why you expressed these two opinions then:
Quote
No, what this is is a means for Democrats to secure votes from Hispanics in future elections. Says something doesn't when a political party has to turn to foreign immigrants for their base votes.
Quote
And yes, if a political party has to turn to appealing and appeasing an immigrant population for votes, that's pathetic. Their first and foremost concern should be the natural born, legal citizens they were voted to represent.
Why include the bit of "natural-born" if you don't consider natural born citizens superior.  You seem to generally resent immigrants, legal or not.  Illegal immigrants can't vote, so...

Online ZeitgeistTopic starter

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2010, 12:34:07 PM »
I'm confused as to why you expressed these two opinions then:Why include the bit of "natural-born" if you don't consider natural born citizens superior.  You seem to generally resent immigrants, legal or not.  Illegal immigrants can't vote, so...

Perhaps I've failed in expressing myself with the 'correct' terms, contributing to confusion.

1. If you're here legally, regardless of your birth place, I have no problems or issues with them or those politicians who might champion their causes.

2. If you are here illegally, while recognizing the complexities of the issues, I don't believe you should be given the same rights (i.e. voting and such) as legal citizens.

3. If you're a politician, and the lion's share of your support and votes comes from illegal immigrants, I believe that is problematic.

I hope that's clear. I muddied the waters up a bit not being specific enough.

And I should emphasize further, I've never suggested these people be corralled up in buses and shipped back. Nor have I suggested their plight be completely ignored. I recognize the complexities and nuances of the illegal immigration issues. Problem is, we keep punting the issue down the road. The Dream Act in part does this, it 'feels good' and sounds warm and fuzzy, but doesn't address the larger issue.

Offline Jude

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2010, 12:44:32 PM »
How exactly would an illegal immigrant vote and support candidates?  They tend to be very poor, they can't legally vote, etc.  I'm sure there are a few cases of voter fraud, but your use of "the lion's share" makes me think you believe that there are candidates who are largely supported by illegal immigrants.  What do you believe the mechanism behind that is?

Online ZeitgeistTopic starter

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2010, 12:50:43 PM »
How exactly would an illegal immigrant vote and support candidates?  They tend to be very poor, they can't legally vote, etc.  I'm sure there are a few cases of voter fraud, but your use of "the lion's share" makes me think you believe that there are candidates who are largely supported by illegal immigrants.  What do you believe the mechanism behind that is?

Harry Reid for example, his causes and his support comes from largely illegal and legal Hispanic immigrants. You don't think illegal immigrants who have settled here, melded into society aren't voting? I suspect they are, especially in the Southwest. Am I just completely off base for thinking that?

Offline Jude

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2010, 12:52:52 PM »
I don't know, what makes you think that is happening?  I haven't seen any statistics that make me inclined to agree that such a thing is happening.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2010, 01:00:25 PM »
Well, if legal Hispanic immigrants are voting for the politicianís cause then these people are exercising their rights as citizens of the United States.  Claiming that their rights and ability to vote are somehow less important or less trustworthy than anyone else is kind of off base.  I would have a hard time believing that any votes made illegally are in a sweeping majority for this manís political base, let alone the political base of the Democratic Party. 

Online ZeitgeistTopic starter

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2010, 01:04:16 PM »
I don't know, what makes you think that is happening?  I haven't seen any statistics that make me inclined to agree that such a thing is happening.

I doubt there would be statistics on illegal immigrants voting. Which of course undermines my own position, I recognize that. I just think it's likely happening. Do states, namely Nevada, require proof of US citizenship to get a driver's license? Do all voting stations require more identification other than a utility bill with an address that falls within the district?

Online ZeitgeistTopic starter

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2010, 01:05:35 PM »
Well, if legal Hispanic immigrants are voting for the politicianís cause then these people are exercising their rights as citizens of the United States.  Claiming that their rights and ability to vote are somehow less important or less trustworthy than anyone else is kind of off base.  I would have a hard time believing that any votes made illegally are in a sweeping majority for this manís political base, let alone the political base of the Democratic Party.

Not what I'm saying (bold), please read my clarification.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2010, 01:06:29 PM »
Harry Reid for example, his causes and his support comes from largely illegal and legal Hispanic immigrants. You don't think illegal immigrants who have settled here, melded into society aren't voting? I suspect they are, especially in the Southwest. Am I just completely off base for thinking that?

Then be more clear on your meaning.

Online ZeitgeistTopic starter

Re: Dream Act
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2010, 01:11:03 PM »
Then be more clear on your meaning.

Already have. And I'm tiring of this game of semantics.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2010, 01:13:07 PM »
How are illegal immigrants voting?  The voting system is pretty iron clad (well, for the most part...) when it comes to who can vote and who can't.  No voter card?  No voting.  No ID showing you are a legal citizen?  No voting.  Yes, these things can be faked but I doubt it's in the numbers where it would make any sort of difference.  You seem to be standing on false data that is only spurred on by paranoid conservative voices who think that the illegal aliens are everywhere and are controlling everything.

Seems kind of silly to me.