Topic: Prostitute Paladins

[Dreamy]

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=743409 is a forum thread in the mature part of WotCs DnD forums where they began to discuss the sexuality of Paladins - a fairly interesting debate, until it came to a few highlights. (Beginning with post #34 on page 2, and lasting the rest of the page.)



"On the other hand, I wonder if the townsfolk might look down upon a paladin who spreads her legs often or actually works at the local brothel on the side (hey, fighting evil can get expensive!)"


"A paladin who provides sexual favours in exchange for material gains would soon find herself slipping towards Neutral alignment, with all the consequences that it entails for her class powers.  That's another thing that you can say about paladins, in addition to their unfailing honesty - they won't sleep with you unless there's some genuine feeling involved. "Have you been naughty today? Are you in need of some...smiting?"  "


"It's not for her /own/ material gain. There might be an evil brewing somewhere and she needs gold FAST in order to fight it, and working at the brothel was the fastest way she could think of. Thousands of lives may depends on her getting that gold quickly 

Besides, she's not hurting anyone. the people going to brothels don't WANT emotional feelings and such anyways. I guess she could refuse to sleep with married men."


Then came the nicest pro-post, in response to a comment that a Paladin selling sex would become neutral.

"What is your justification here?

Is there some rule saying a Paladin can't earn money by means other than being a Paladin?

Most Paladins will go questing after evil and being a prostitute would for the most part interfere with this. However, I don't think a Paladin *MUST* quest after evil. I see nothing inherently wrong with a Paladin that acts as the defender of a town or something--if there's nobody else that can take up the burden and the defense is needed then it's the only right thing to do. Thus you have a Paladin who stays put and needs a source of income.

Lets see what the Paladin can do to make money:

A skilled profession in town? I doubt it--the Paladin is going to be spending their skill points on Paladin-type tasks, not mundane things.

A farmer? No--what happens when the monsters raid during harvest season. A Paladin needs a job that can be dropped at a moment's notice without causing problems. That also precludes basically any supervisory position (something they would otherwise be good at due to charisma & diplomacy.)

About all that's available is some sort of general labor--not a good profession.

But wait....

The Paladin is a spellcaster. That means reliable contraception. I think the BoEF got it wrong, the basic contraceptive spell should be 0-level and at 1st level it should either be 1 day or 1 day/level.

The Paladin is immune to disease.

The Paladin is good at dealing with people.

Everyone knows they will be treated honestly by a Paladin.

What's the one good-paying profession that would benefit from these strong points? Prostitute.

I do not think a Paladin would ever be a streetwalker or the like, they're going to be high class.

Assuming they are unmarried and their deity doesn't object to casual sex it seems all but ideal given the situation.

Yes, there's a chance the alarm is sounded and the Paladin dashes off in the middle. The customer need not worry, he can be sure of getting his money back or a replacement session in compensation."


So..

Anyway, I haven't though through this very far yet but it felt like an interesting thing to build a game around somehow..

[RubySlippers]

I hate people that think ALL paladin have to be like a shining knight errant with a holy symbol and no life. I ran a viking-like bellowing paladin of stocky build that loved to drink and wench. She was noble born such was pretty much expected in her culture and she had rights to pretty much any commoner so could take one or more to bed. What good is vanquishing a ogre-magi and his horde and not celebrate with the grateful local women afterwords? lol

So a prostitute well most paladins would be supported by their fighting order or ruler, some might hold law enforcement jobs especially gnomes and the like. I would say if the local culture accepted prostitution as an honest trade and the paladin obeyed obligations of her faith I don't see the problem. Of course one should have some ranks in Courtesan at least as a profession. 

[Jefepato]

The proper term is "smite evil," not "bump uglies."

...anyway.  This sort of game could be interesting, depending on the form it took.

[Praxis]

Clerics maybe...

but Paladins are soldiers...warriors...nothing else.

They are the right hand of their god/goddess that lays waste to those before them.

Clerics are far less specialized.

If you want to roleplay "holy hookers" , why not just use clerics?

Just because an internet discussion was mature and polite,doesn't make it correct.

Not to snub your game idea.  Have at 'er if it turns your crank, but trying to make a sound argument that paladins should be nailing people to advance their holy agenda...bah.

Paladins beat shit down...they don't beat shit off.

[Praxis]

ALthough I suppose this should be in the rants section so if RS wants to go ten rounds, start the thread and let's roll.

[Jefepato]

Clerics are far less specialized.

...and still better at fighting than paladins, too.

But in any case, nothing about the paladin code particularly prohibits prostitution, although I would agree that it's certainly odd, nor does it require paladins to be running around smiting evil 24/7.  To say that paladins are "nothing else" other than warriors is misleading; that's all that their class abilities are (and even that's debatable), but not all that they are in general.

[Praxis]

...and still better at fighting than paladins, too.

But in any case, nothing about the paladin code particularly prohibits prostitution, although I would agree that it's certainly odd, nor does it require paladins to be running around smiting evil 24/7.  To say that paladins are "nothing else" other than warriors is misleading; that's all that their class abilities are (and even that's debatable), but not all that they are in general.

What do you mean, they're better at fighting?

Has WOTC changed the rules again.  Clerics have better TO HIT targets than Paladins now?

[Jefepato]

What do you mean, they're better at fighting?

Has WOTC changed the rules again.  Clerics have better TO HIT targets than Paladins now?

Divine power and righteous might make fighters cry.

Clerics and druids are just about the most powerful classes in D&D.  It's in the nature of the beast that is D&D for casters to surpass fighters from mid-levels on, but clerics happen to also have spells that make them insanely good at fighting, too.  Some cleric players just never realize how good they have it, because they end up using all their spells as healing batteries.

[RubySlippers]

The summoning spells alone are scary a holy cleric calling up a powerful celestial is pretty well assured its favor. Forget a Conjurer wizard specialist with the right feats you can sit there and have various angelic beings kicking evil ass as they sit there and sip tea. Not to mention Necromancer clerics by the dark gods and goddesses they can be a nightmare with the right feats. Then there is Miracle enough said on that one in many ways its more powerful than a Wish spell. Add to that any armor, shield and can train in any weapon they can be rather dangerous in basic melee as well.

And Druids get innate power to BECOME an Elemental at high level can you say smack down the hurt.

[WarDragon]

Actually, summoning spells (except the BEYOND-BROKEN gate) are kind of sad, and the Druid's real strength is casting all those animal-only buffs on himself.... but, back on topic, this could indeed be interesting, but it would be kind of a one-trick party.  Perhaps everyone's gestalt, and one side has to be paladin?  It would make the most sense if they all worshiped the same deity, like FR's Sune, or Eros/Cupid.

Or... maybe it's set in a less-than-virtuous kingdom, and the prostitution is a cover for a paladin-led revolt against the corrupt authority, or some such?  Just an idea.

[Jefepato]

the Druid's real strength is casting all those animal-only buffs on himself....

But he can't.  As per the latest errata, wild shape works like the "alternate form" ability, which does not change the user's type.

It sucks, but I find that druids are still impressive even without being able to animal-buff themselves.  (Plus, unlike summon monster, summon nature's ally is actually useful.)

[LordAnubis]

Personally I find the idea of prostitute paladin's amusing, it isn't something you hear around your average gaming table.  Cutting past any personaly biases one way or another,  all that is required for the paladin to pursue that profession is that it isn't illegal in the city, isn't cheating anyone, and that their code of conduct doesn't expressly forbid premartial sex/casual sex there isn't any reason they shoudln't be able to be prostitutes. 

Public service, people leave happy, if high enough level can remove diseases from clients on a week to week baisis and is a trustworthy person. 

This is a rather large step away from the original view of the paladin, but lets face it, who hasn't had at least one character that was way off what they normally should be?  Who hasn't had a rogue who was OD'ing the Fighters to embrassing degrees at mid level, mine did it once without sneak attack.

It's my two cents on the subject and as for the game, intriguing idea.  Probably don't have the time to play but I'd most definatly be reading.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Hmmm, I agree that ther eis no where on Code of Conduct mentioend that paladin cannot do prostitution so long it is LEGAL to do so. The code of conduct only ask follow basic virtues (which are bravery, honesty, kindness and justice and perhaps few more but celibacy I am sure was not involved) and follow codes of law and good and not associate whit evil characthers knowingly.

I would be intrested try concept of paladin, and I think somesort setting where paladins where kinda forced to go into this sort profession as cover against corrupt ruler who have taked over a kingdom and put former 'paladins of justice' into executioner log would be intresting background story for such paladins. After all nto many would expect that the pridefull high ranked paladins would become runners of a brothel . So they used this trick only get a good cover but they go long lenghts ensure that they none break their paladin vows anyway whit their otherwise legal work (like accidentally sleep whit married man or man who is evil).

[Praxis]

It's not about a code of conduct, but moreso the mind set.  Paladins strike me as laser beams.  Focused on expanding the pantheon of their deity.  They do it through their actions, and generally their actions involve combat.  When they are not fighting, they are training, or worshipping.  That's it.  It's possible that they have sex, but the discussion was regarding prostitution.  Would a paladin have sex for coin?  Taking into account that in the "realms", prostitution might very well not be a big deal, but does a paladin have TIME for it?  They're busy.  Unlike the other classes that are generally focused on one aspect that takes up their time.  Warriors train, and then have sex.  Thieves sneak around and then have sex.  Clerics worship their deity and then have sex.  Bards are gay and then have sex...Paladins have training, THEN worship their deity, and then have sex.  They have one more responsibility that the other classes don't.

Clerics are the the ones that have a number of different roles in the "D&D clergy".  They are the ones that have the time and opportunity to divide their interests in a number of different ways; sex being one of those ways.

I suppose I'm still old school D&D where Paladins smashed more, and Clerics were the jack of all trades, and masters of none types.  Even moreso than bards because bards are just gay. :)  You can throw jongleur, and blade kits at me till the cows come home...bards are teh g4y.

When 2nd edition rolled out Clerics became a bit broken.  There were two clerics in our party and they became a huge obstacle for our DM at the time, simply because of the spells that they had available to them.  The party pounded through fights that we never should have attempted, solely because of the spell set of the clerics we had in our party.

Fun...but broken.

Where was I?

Oh...like I said earlier.  Have fun with your paladin orgy...seriously...please do.  Something inside me kinda snaps when people try to actually justify outlandish ideas.  Embrace the outlandish.

Have a three peckered paladin having a threesome with a ghostly japanese school girl and a tentacle god.  Have five cat girls cheerleading on the side.

Just don't try to rationalize it.

[Jefepato]

It's not about a code of conduct, but moreso the mind set.  Paladins strike me as laser beams.  Focused on expanding the pantheon of their deity.  They do it through their actions, and generally their actions involve combat.  When they are not fighting, they are training, or worshipping.  That's it.

That is purely your interpretation, and not particularly supported by anything in the books.  Nothing in any D&D book (well, nothing in any 3.0 or 3.5 book -- 2e paladins were deranged) indicates that paladins can't do anything but fight, train, or worship, or that they are held to any mindset beyond what their alignment and code of conduct (and their deity, if they have one, which is not required) specify.

Have a three peckered paladin having a threesome with a ghostly japanese school girl and a tentacle god.  Have five cat girls cheerleading on the side.

Hey, cool idea.  Anyone up for this game?

[Elvi]

Oh.....This is a game discussion?
I thought it had been put here by mistake.....

But just to add my outlook.

Paladins of Good.
Paragons of virtue, upholders of justice.
I see 'good' Paladins as very righteous and virginal, (both male and female), who would not even think of the 'sins' of the flesh as it would divert their attention away from their true calling.

Paladins of Evil.
Corrupt to the bone.
Will do anything and everything to spread hatred and fear and will stoop to any level to achieve their goals, however still focussed upon the furtherment of their 'god/goddess' wishes.

Would either of these prostitute themselves for money?
I really can't see that.
They are the black and white backbone of any game, the rest ambling around the middle in various shades of grey.

Surely a Paladin of good would live off the generocity of others (as in Budhist monks) and a Paladin of Evil would simply just take what they needed anyway?



But....as Ender says.....
If you want to have a game where 'your' Paladins are forced into prostitution, then stop disecting the idea and just go for it.....

[Dreamy]

Well, I didn't see any place for 'game ideas and suggestions' but I'm pretty much blind anyway  8)

It did start out as a general prod for interest in a game, but also as a question for how such a game could look and how it should be played, since I just liked the idea of a high-cha warrioress normally known for 'stick-in-the-ass-attitude' spreading her legs (silly me)

[Elvi]

And not "high-cha warriors normally known for 'stick-in-the-ass-attitude'", whipping it out for the odd copper?

[Dreamy]

Naah, any warrior I would go shopping for would charge in platinum

[Elvi]

Well...surely if they were as poor and destitude as is being made out they would be, surely they would give it up for a crust of bread?

[Dreamy]

Why? Anyone that could only afford to pay a piece of bread should get it for free, while those wealthy enough to pay more should, no?

And one of the setups was a Paladin needing plenty of money in a short time to save lives. (Come up with a reason - maybe they needed to liberate slaves but could not do it by force, thus needing cash to buy their freedom with )

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, it is easy imaigne paladins as good lovers because there is specific paladin orders, examply in Faerun there is Sunite paladins who take whole doghma. But question would be would they take money of the 'service' offered? Not if it is for anyway selfish purposes but I would think some paladins would do it like once in occassion if their god's temple needs funding but not as full timed long term career. Also some cases devoted paladin could disguise itself as prostitute if some local prostitutes are harassed by demon who hunts such kind of prey (placing themselves as victim so that they can confront the demon then directly when their skills are not enough track it other means).

[NikitaFirestar]

*Yawns and peeks* Someone call for a sexy paladin? *Giggles*

[Praxis]

Well, it is easy imaigne paladins as good lovers because there is specific paladin orders, examply in Faerun there is Sunite paladins who take whole doghma. But question would be would they take money of the 'service' offered? Not if it is for anyway selfish purposes but I would think some paladins would do it like once in occassion if their god's temple needs funding but not as full timed long term career. Also some cases devoted paladin could disguise itself as prostitute if some local prostitutes are harassed by demon who hunts such kind of prey (placing themselves as victim so that they can confront the demon then directly when their skills are not enough track it other means).

Sune is beauty, love and passion...not sex.  If anyone is about to say passion equates to sex, they'd be wrong.  I'm passionate about alot of things that have nothing to do with sex.  I'm passionate about this topic involving the illogical use of paladins and the need to justify doing something wrong when you could just do it instead.  Yep...I'm passionate about this topic, but it doesn't mean I wanna have sex with this topic.



You want sex, look for the demi-god Sharess.

Disguising yourself as a prostitute and being a prostitute can be QUITE a big difference as well.

Also, for a while at least in the Forgotten Realms, you needed to belong to a specific religion to be a paladin, otherwise you were stuck to being a priest albeit one of the specialized ones if you wished.

Basically there weren't any paladins of Sune, or Shar dilly-dallying about.

But that's just F.R.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, I think WotC do not list sex as one of her domains but I am sure of it sexuality also is part of Sune's portfolio (and so is love and love and love making come in hand to hand I think) while I think Sharess is a pure lust based sex, more instictive expression of it.

Altough we can argue that only role what 'Rose Paladinhood' do is only 'protect/defend beauty' but in my opinion Sunite paladins crosses often into areas where paladin of Tyr would think is indecent but truth to be said the Sunite paladins remain faithfull to the ideals of their chosen patron goddess and so keep their paladin abilities (despite Lawfull vs Chaos anxis).

Also I am sure there are situations where Paladin would have no choice than use love making as tool against evil (like break a curse via sex because curse specifically says that pure hearted champion of good must lay whit the invidual). Also some paladins could argue that instead using force paladin should use compassion, even love, as better sword than smiting evil whit steel (altough physicall exercises would be still encouraged towards evil which cannot be turned back to good).

I may think too much Eberron setting lense about the alignment issue but I think it is more of personall view and belief of paladin how he views the code of paladin hood. Some (and most) paladins could see black and white only because it is 'easiest' route how to keep vigilant in paladin's code but in truth they can cross borders of standard paladin behavior and still remain paladins but it is much more harder thing to do in 'unsusual' circumstances like working as prostitute (and not all mortals cannot bear complicated their already stirct lives whit further rule thinking).

Exalted Deeds haves alot talk of variant of paladins; Some keep their paladin's code even when they are nearly mosntrous in their pratices towards evil guys and others keep it even when they are very diplomatic and civil. But these kind of issues each paladin player must think and measure each decision carefully and think 'is this right?'.

In my opinion paladin can do anything so long it does nto break law, nor cause harm or do evil generally (also not associate whit evil characthers knowingly) and also does not interfere on any god's doghmas. So far as I can tell no where it reads on paladin's description they must be virginal warriors until married. Only old rule is that any material wealthed rewards or gains beyond what normal humble living would ask must be donated to the church (many forget this ironically) expect rewards gived by god or by the church what paladin serves.

It no where reads what profession paladin may or may not pratice, so I get picture paladin can be a blacksmith, baker, wine maker, farmer or other such in little free time or time of peace what paladin haves and it can include also prostitution so long paladin gives most of the earned gold to the church and church haves no portfolio or moral issues whit chosen profession.