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Author Topic: The fate of our country, Take heed America!  (Read 2530 times)

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Offline sartrackerTopic starter

The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« on: August 13, 2010, 02:05:06 PM »
HOW DID JEFFERSON KNOW?

Especially: Read the last quote from 1802.




When we get piled
upon one another in large cities, as in Europe,
we shall become as corrupt as Europe .
Thomas Jefferson


The democracy will cease to exist
when you take away from those
who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson


It is incumbent on every
generation to pay its own debts as it goes.
A principle which if acted on would save
one-half the wars of the world.
Thomas Jefferson


I predict future happiness for
Americans if they can prevent the government
from wasting the labors of the people under the
pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson   


My reading of history convinces me
that most bad government results from too much
government.
Thomas Jefferson


No free man shall ever be debarred
the use of arms.
Thomas Jefferson


The strongest reason for the
people to retain the right to keep and bear arms
is, as a last resort, to protect themselves
against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson


The tree of liberty must be
refreshed from time to time with the blood of
patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson


To compel a man to subsidize with
his taxes the propagation of ideas which he
disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson


Thomas  Jefferson said in 1802:
'I believe that
banking institutions are more dangerous to
our liberties than standing armies.
If the American people ever allow
private banks to control the issue of their
currency, first by inflation, then by
deflation, the banks and corporations that will
grow up around the banks will deprive the people
of all property - until their children
wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers
conquered.'

 

 

 

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Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2010, 02:08:18 PM »

Offline Jude

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2010, 03:13:55 PM »
Thomas Jefferson wouldn't have even approved of the industrial revolution.  He believed in a small-government, agrarian society where families owned farms and essentially were self-sufficient.  The man was about as libertarian as they come.

As far as the right to bear arms quotes, he certainly didn't foresee the way technology has evolved, because it makes no sense to argue that you need access to handguns and hunting rifles, at this day and age, in order to protect against the potential tyranny of government.  Good luck shooting a 9mm at an Apache helicopter or an Aircraft Carrier.  If you want a chance to stand up against the government you're going to need stinger missiles.  Do you think we should legalize those?

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2010, 03:53:33 PM »
No you don't guerilla warfare and sheer numbers can overcome technology, and your assuming the military would side with the government when ordered to shoot Americans you know and I know many might refuse and fight for the people.

But there is a far moredangerous weapon - the vote. It can destroy a government peacefully and hand power to another the American People just have to use it.

Offline sartrackerTopic starter

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2010, 03:56:13 PM »
Good Afternoon Jude,
I am not that radical yet, and I agree things have changed and Hunting rifles and handguns are no match for modern weaponry. My  intention wasn't to start a discussion on gun control vs the right to bear arms. I am more fearful of the direction are country is headed. the things our founding fathers wrote into the constitution and the bill of rights, What they feared would happen by protecting our rights, is happening now. Government wants whats ours to be theirs. My opinions are not popular, but that's the way I think.
Thank You for responding,
Sar

Offline Jude

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2010, 04:24:30 PM »
"Government" doesn't want anything.  "Government" is a label slapped onto bureaucracies made of humans; it has no will, no thoughts, no opinions, no needs, no desires.  This idea of monolithic government is a fallacy of reification.  It feeds into paranoia that somehow federal authority is usurping rights and privileges at an unprecedented level, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

Is a good portion of the country legally enslaved, and such property rights enshrined in law?  No.  Are there internment camps set up for racial minorities by executive order?  No.  Is the government forcing seceding states to remain a part of the country by use of lethal and deadly force resulting in the murder of millions of US citizens?  No.  Is the government weeding out people by Draconian loyalty tests and persecuting suspected Communists, Gays, and Socialists?  No.  What about waging wars to stop communism under the myth of it being a monolithic entity and rallying the populace into a frightened frenzy?  Nope...

There have been far more egregious abuses of governmental power in the name of stopping socialism than there have been in the name of socialism.  Government taking control of key industries is a temporary thing; a lot of the institutions which were government owned (such as GM) have since returned to being completely private again.  Those steps are temporary; unless you can point to concrete ways in which things have permanently changed, I have to wonder how much of what you're saying is simply parroting the words of the modern day (and diametrically opposed) Father Coughlins.

EDIT:  I feel in retrospect that my post may come off as a bit harsh.  I really appreciate your tone, you seem like a cool guy, welcome to E, and I hope you have a good time debating on P&R.  I don't mean to denigrate you or your point of view, my argument was a bit forceful, and I don't mean anything personal by it.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 04:28:02 PM by Jude »

Offline sartrackerTopic starter

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2010, 04:47:56 PM »
Jude,
I am glad I have sparked some enthusiasm, I am glad you en-gauged me in conversation. It is my wish that we as Americans engage each other and at list try to make a difference. We need change in America! I do not take anything personal my friend,

Offline MasterMischief

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2010, 08:23:05 PM »
Jefferson certainly had an interesting point of view.  Take his Bible, for example.

And the sky has been falling since...well...since I have been young enough to hear politicians tell me that it is.

Offline Serephino

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2010, 10:45:07 PM »
There are lots of things happening that worry me.  George Washington warned against forming a party system before he left office, and I believe him to be a very wise man.  Some may argue that it makes the election process easier, but look at the mess it's created.  Every issue ends up becoming left wing versus right wing. 

Nothing is getting done because neither side wants to give into the other.  The Republicans are the worst offenders I think because they and their President Bush got blamed for this mess, and they're trying to make the Democrats fail at fixing anything and crying out 'see, it wasn't us!  give us power back and we'll fix it!'. 

People like Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Pailin have said outright they want President Obama to fail.  Granted, those two are on the more extreme side of things, but the rest of their party seems to be falling behind them.  The only thing getting done is finger pointing.  The only thing our representatives care about is getting re-elected and getting as many members of their party elected so they can do whatever the hell they want to and fuck the other party. 

Banks bother me too.  My boyfriend and I are currently getting very screwed over by ours.  He somehow overdraws, for whatever reason, and the charge comes in, but they conveniently don't finish processing it until he makes a deposit.  Then, even though the money is there when the transaction is complete, they slap him with an overdraft fee; and because it doesn't give him a negative balance they don't have to notify him, and they don't.  So they'll take out as much as $90 in fees and he has no idea and thinks the money is there.  So of course he overdraws again, and again they don't finish processing it until the money is there and they don't have to notify him.  This snowballs until he's -$200. 

I know, we should find a new bank, but it seems the same everywhere.  The bank we used before this one randomly had large sums of money going poof for no reason but their records always showed it was our fault even though we went over our records with a fine tooth comb and never found any errors. 

Anyway, banks are big, and only care about making money.  I just declared bankruptcy, but was told I would have no problem getting more credit cards.  Why?  Because I can't file again for 6 years, and they're hoping I haven't learned my lesson.  If I ring myself up again then I'm a cash cow for them for 6 years at least. 

Greed is rampant.  In this capitalistic society everything is a business, including things that shouldn't be like health care.  People are more productive when they aren't sick.  Maybe if I had gotten proper psychiatric care way back when I would've had an easier time working and would be contributing to society instead of taking from it. 

I know people are worried that if doctors get paid less then there might be a shortage.  But the way I see it is in that case the only people who become doctors would be the ones that truly care.  You wouldn't have guys like that fucking surgeon who was quite content to let me suffer with a gallstone until I could cough up his outrageous fee, or the ER doctor who when I had blood in my stool and really bad abdominal pain checked for a kidney infection, and when that wasn't it just sent me home.

I know most of this has been ranting, but yeah, things need to change.  People need to start getting involved.  I don't know what the solution would be, but I know the current system isn't it.     

Offline Lyell

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2010, 11:34:32 PM »
The only thing getting done is finger pointing. 


This is where I should be linking every clip of Obama pointing fingers at the bush administration.

Offline Serephino

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2010, 11:39:10 PM »
I never said both sides weren't doing it.  It doesn't matter who it is, it makes me wish it were legal to shoot politicians as long as it isn't fatal.  Maybe then they'd care more about the people, because if they don't, they'll get shot!

Offline Jude

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2010, 11:58:19 PM »
I think the problem we're facing now can be summed up in a word:  Populism.

The average person in the United States thinks altogether too much of themself.  People are opinionated, confident, and uninformed:  a dangerous trio when the right to vote is included.  We have decisions being made on the basis of what the voters think they want, but the demands that voters make are unrealistic.

Lower taxes is a popular concept (amongst everyone who pays taxes anyway, though there certainly are a lot of people who don't pay taxes who unfortunately can vote and vote like government finances are irrelevant because they don't have to foot the bill), but everyone has their pet programs they want expanded and empowered.  Conservatives support nearly unfettered military expenditure ("peace through strength"), expensive shows of force in the name of defense (Afganistan, Iraq, potentially someday Iran), unfinanced tax cuts (Bush Tax Cuts), and increased enforcement of law in costly areas (Immigration, Drugs).  Where Liberals support increased social programs, regulation, expanding governmental budgets, and somehow, greater respect for and increased Civil Rights (which apparently the massive bureaucracy they envision will not impede upon).

Both points of view have become diametrically opposed, calling for cuts where the other side calls for expansion.  The one thing everyone can agree on is the need for a healthy economy, but again, people fight tooth and nail over what path we should take to get there (often whipping the proverbial car back and forth constantly from road to road in the process).  Neither philosophy really works because there's a serious lack of balance which results in regimes that rubberband back and forth from extreme to extreme, constantly undoing each others' achievements in the process.  And each ideology is sort of failed and contradictory on its own.  Large institutions don't have a good track record when it comes to respecting personal rights (Democrats) and you can't have small government when you're trying to impose traditionalism on the country as a whole by way of law.

Everyone seems to have their mind made up and set on their particular brand of politics, so sure that the things they believe are correct.  It seems like every administration today does such an excellent job of shoving their agenda down the other side's throat that there's an almost immediate resurgence of political willpower which destroys them.  Remember how the media kept discussing, rightly so, the implosion of the Republican Party not 2 years ago?  So much for that; you can thank the Democrats for giving them CPR by passing so many large pieces of legislation and ratcheting up the debt exactly as was predicted.

What's most infuriating of all is that while the Democrats may have made the right decisions overall (though I don't think they're infallible by any stretch of the imagination -- they've certainly made a lot of mistakes too), it doesn't matter.  We can no longer agree on fact anymore in this country because everyone thinks they're an expert.  We've become too individualistic and impressed by our own abilities to think and reason; arrogance and self-confidence of thought has reached epidemic proportions, and it's beginning to manifest itself in all things.

Until someone makes the voters take a hard look at their demands, I don't think our country is going anywhere but down.  Of course, no one will do that, because the second that anyone says anything against the masses, they're pushed out of office and rendered politically irrelevant.  I don't know what the solution, but somehow, as a country, we need to realize that we don't have all of the answers and our political outlooks are just opinions.

We need to get realistic.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 12:00:08 AM by Jude »

Online itsbeenfun2000

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2010, 04:23:16 AM »
I would like to point out that my parents all my life said that our country was going to hell in a hand basket. It rights itself because people care and make a difference. By the way I heard them say that for about 40 years

Offline cassia

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2010, 10:45:09 PM »
Every generation sees things getting worse. It's hard to tell how much of this is because the situation is worse and how much of it is because we didn't see the darker side of society back then. Glancing at the birthday list, I would guess that a large majority of the members here were too young to get a good look at American society as a whole and make well-informed opinions on it until the 1990s, at the earliest. I include myself in this despite being a little older than the average - I graduated from high school in 1996. A sixth-grader, such as myself 20 years ago, is not going to have the same grasp on political concepts that an informed adult would have, even if she can watch a news program and understand what is being said.

The slide into being trapped under an ineffective but bloated government and losing our liberties while entranced by shiny things in stores and on television is real, but it's not happening as quickly as we would be led to believe. That means there's hope for reversing or at least stopping the process.

Offline Jude

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2010, 12:27:53 AM »
I don't think age leads to wisdom on this subject, because the opinions you form from age are subject to biased interpretation and perspective.  A clear study of history certainly lends clarity; and a very different viewpoint from those offered for mass consumption.

Offline Darius

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2010, 12:37:50 AM »
In Jefferson's time they still thought leaching was a viable treatment for most illnesses. Be careful when you consider their words and put them in the context of today.

Speaking for myself, I think the country took a wrong turn back in the 80's. It was the beginning of 'trickle down economics' and every economic indicator since then has been unfavorable to the common person. It was about that time that the rhetoric during elections turned extremely viperish, and it seems as though its only gotten worse since them

We have a nutbar here in NV running against Harry Reid. Her entire platform is based upon "No." Unless it comes to distorting the truth, or discounting the intelligence of her base. In one of her ads, they lament that house prices have fallen over 50%, then do the math so people will understand that if their house was worth 300K, its now only worth about 150K.

Somewhere along the line being smart and having a good education has become a bad thing. You're labeled 'elite'. Well this indie voter wants the smartest person on the fracking continent running things. If that makes them elite, then by all means label me an elitist.

And just to keep things honest, a little link to show that I'm not kidding about all the economic indicators turning down. Well except for the period when Clinton was in office.

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010062415/reagan-revolution-home-roost-charts

"Ignorance and Arrogance should not be used as a basis for policy decisions."

Offline Xanatos

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2010, 01:14:39 AM »
Actually, Scientists are going back to using Leeches in some cases... Scientists are actually realizing many older remedies work better than their modern medicines, fewer side effects for one thing.

http://www.leeches.biz/

Also, ignoring history means one is doomed to repeat it; so passing off the words of a man who lived over 300 years ago is not always a wise thing; just because he did not live in the now, does not mean his words cannot still have meaning and impact on the present. Only the foolish ignore wise words.

If you look back at history, the same forms of government (with exceptions), have been around for thousands of years; so to say his words are not timeless, to say Jefferson's words have no basis in reality, to say they have no solid foundation in the present is clearly showing a lack of understanding concerning history and how little forms of government have changed in human history. Basically it means his words are timeless and can apply to any age of man, no matter how far into the future we go.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 01:16:11 AM by Xanatos »

Offline Jude

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2010, 01:37:10 AM »
I'm... pretty sure that leech link is incredibly dubious and false.  For one, those people are selling them.  There's no scientific evidence there, and I've heard zilch about that being a resurgent medical technique.  Gonna have to call BS on this one unless you can show some peer reviewed evidence.

EDIT:  Besides, you're saying that because that concept may possibly have resurgent use, we should consider all forms of "historical wisdom" to have a nugget of truth, instead of considering that a coincident fluke.  There are plenty other examples, such as the theory of humors, where the past was just wrong.

EDIT2:  I'm not saying it's wise to outright dismiss what people in the past have said, but don't put it on a pedestal.  They made their judgments based on the knowledge available to them at the time just as we do today; they didn't have some grandiose perspective that we're lacking.  In fact, people today have more knowledge than people did 100 years ago without a doubt.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 01:47:08 AM by Jude »

Offline Oniya

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Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2010, 01:53:29 AM »
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13816033  (M. Derganc and F. Zdravic - British Journal of Plastic Surgery, 1960)

Searches on "Leech therapy" in quotes gives 4 free full text articles on actual procedures, and 2 free full text articles on medicinal leeches themselves.  If you have a strong stomach, do a search there on maggot debridement therapy (maggots only eat dead tissue, which makes them far more precise than mechanical debridement methods.)

Offline Jude

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2010, 01:56:49 AM »
Awesome, I stand corrected. :D

EDIT:  1960?  ... little olllllld.

Something a bit more current:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20585793
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 01:59:41 AM by Jude »

Offline Oniya

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Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2010, 02:06:16 AM »
That was the source of the original 'resurgence' - and why I included the bit about the other four, much more recent articles :)  (*loves the Discovery Health Channel*)

Offline Zakharra

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2010, 09:07:40 AM »
And just to keep things honest, a little link to show that I'm not kidding about all the economic indicators turning down. Well except for the period when Clinton was in office.

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010062415/reagan-revolution-home-roost-charts

"Ignorance and Arrogance should not be used as a basis for policy decisions."

 Uumm.. didn't the economy also bomb at the end of the Clinton years. From the Dot-com bubble bursting? I believe the President got caught manipulating/lying about the economic numbers to hide that fact.  I also remember then  new President Bush being blamed for 'destroying' the 10 year budget 'surplus'* even before he was a full year in office.

 *  That surplus always made me laugh when it was a projected income out over 10 years at the Clinton adimistration's 'official' income stream.  No budget income is ever steady from one year to the next.

Offline sartrackerTopic starter

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2010, 10:21:13 AM »
Good Morning Everyone,
I want to thank everyone who has read and responded to this thread. It was my hope that it would generate some discussion, from those equally concerned with the state of the union.. The conversation about the leeches was interesting also. I won't start talking about how maggots are used to eat dead tissue from burn victim's. I wish I had the answers to the problems we all face. Like Nevada , the housing & job markets/ are down the shitter in California too.. Both of my sons work in construction, and both are out of work. The oldest has as four daughters. It looks like everybody is coming home to live with us for a while. For the unemployed the is still some hope, that things will pick up. I am hopeful we Americans  can turn things around
Thank you again
Sar 

Offline fallen paradise

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2010, 01:57:58 PM »
Awesome, I stand corrected. :D

EDIT:  1960?  ... little olllllld.

Something a bit more current:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20585793
I was going to say - leeches are used is modern medicine, though they are not used in the same sense and for the same reasons they used to be used. They've also found that maggots are very useful for removing necrotic flesh since the maggots only eat the rot and not the healthy flesh. Both of these are WAY off topic.

ON TOPIC:
Old ways are not the best ways, new ways are not the best ways. Smart ways are not the best ways, dumb ways are not the best ways. I definitely feel that part of our problem is an uninformed and influential electorate. In some ways I both love and abhor the "Rock the Vote" movement. Yes, we should encourage younger generations to vote (I still count myself among the younger generation - especially within my party of choice) but at the same time do I really want a stoned out college student choosing the next president on the basis of his "coolness" as opposed to his policy? (note, this is not a comment about the previous election but really applies to any election in the past 20 years or so)

One thing that I'd love to see for local elections - randomize candidate name order and do not list party affiliation next to the candidate. If someone is going to vote for person X because they are a Republican or a Democrat then I don't really want that person voting. Working the polls it used to piss me off when someone would come in (back when we had the lever machines) and ask "Which switch do I use to vote for all of the [insert political party here]."

My other soapbox? More people need to become involved in local politics. I'm on the Town Committee for my party and a lot of the people on both Town Committees for the political parties are sheep or dispassionate about being there. So the same people get put up for election again and again, regardless of whether or not they are competent and then nothing changes. Depending on your town and state it is EASY to become involved in and influence local politics. Have a group of 10 or 15 friends who are local and dedicated on bringing about change? You can do it. But most people don't seem to care at all.

The original post brought up a lot of other issues - gun control, welfare, taxation - and I could have a lengthy debate on any of those issues, but to respond to the general theme of "The country is going to hell." I definitely agree it could be, but fortunately for us Democracy moves slowly, bureaucracy is not nimble. I think it is a check and balance that the Founding Fathers never intended on. But if you are fearful of change get involved actively at the local level, change can be built from the bottom up.

Offline Darius

Re: The fate of our country, Take heed America!
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2010, 04:49:44 PM »
Actually, I do know they are using leeches and maggots in some cases to work with burn victims, but they're not seen as a cure-all nor do we now think that health issues are from 'bad blood'.

I don't think I ever said not to listen to the words of the founding fathers, what I said was to apply their lessons to world of today.

Fundamentally, we need to raise taxes on everyone including businesses to say a nice flat 15% for a few decades to pay off our debts, but to do so would mean that whoever is elected would have to exercise some fiscal restraint during that time.