You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 07, 2016, 10:30:31 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Ya know...with all this talk of Gay marriage and stuff, and it not being legal,  (Read 2092 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

At least not nationwide, I mean.

I find it kind of sad that, while these people, who love each other enough to make that kind of commitment, can't get married,

Yet,

There is an advertisement on TV for a website that says, nay, Promises, as far as I can understand from the Ad, to find You, oh married person, a person outside your marriage to F*** and date.

I wish I was making that up. There is a website that literally advertises to find you someone to fool around with behind your spouses back.

( I choose not to say the name, in case that's against the rules in some way, though if someone tells me it's ok, I'll gladly give the name of the website. )



..Now..I don't think it takes a genius to see what is wrong with this picture. >_<

(Also, I figured this would belong here, as it deals with a political issue..but if you think it goes somewhere else, or deserves to be deleted, please feel free to do so....I just thought I would speak my mind on the issue. o-o Sorry if it sounds confrontational..If it does, I didn't mean it to be. o-o)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 01:00:57 AM by Wolfy »

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
While there are relationships that allow for that, I rather suspect that the website in question is promising a 'discreet' or 'confidential' service - and probably for a fee - for people who don't have that kind of arrangement.  It probably also advertises really late at night so that it can target the people who are sitting up watching TV instead of sleeping next to their spouse.

It's dirty pool, and I never trust anything that is advertised between 2 and 7 in the morning.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

While there are relationships that allow for that, I rather suspect that the website in question is promising a 'discreet' or 'confidential' service - and probably for a fee - for people who don't have that kind of arrangement.  It probably also advertises really late at night so that it can target the people who are sitting up watching TV instead of sleeping next to their spouse.

It's dirty pool, and I never trust anything that is advertised between 2 and 7 in the morning.

Yes..but there's still the problem that it exists.

So...According to their advertisement, it's alright to cheat on your spouse if you are bored with your marriage...O-o

I just..don't understand, really. I know the whole issue with Gay Marriage is complicated (Mostly by Religion, as I understand it...probably understanding it wrong, though) but still...it just..rubs me the wrong way that these kinds of websites can exist, yet Gay people who would remain faithful to each other and make such a large commitment, can't get married...Ya know what I mean?

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Oh definitely.  But ever since human society has made rules, there have been people who have made a 'business' out of breaking the rules and not getting caught. 

Offline Florence

Aye, I've seen and raged about this already xD

It's just a marketing gimmick to be honest, and most people who use their service clearly already have the idea in their heads. That said, yes, it is very disgusting, and if there is a hell, I'm sure the owners will be burning in it.

That's pretty much all I have to say on the issue xD

Offline fallen paradise

Monogamy is an odd thing. I'm one of those weird people who don't equate love to sex or sex to love, to me sex is just a pleasurable physical activity two people can engage in, similar to a brisk hike or a fun jog. I don't think I have ever had an emotional reaction to the physical intimacy of sex. Cuddling, sure, being together with someone, yes. But to me sex carries about as much emotional investment as a ham sandwich.

In the past my reaction to partners 'cheating' on me was more "Gee, why didn't you just tell me, I'd have no problem with it" than "You betrayed me, how dare you sully our love!" I don't think that someone having sex with  me makes them love me any more, nor does my having sex with other people make me love my emotional partner any less.

That said, I know that I'm the odd duck in this sense and that normal society doesn't agree with my views on the matter. I too find those types of advertisements annoying because they are telling people to engage in behavior they know is illegal. It's the same as people selling "body purification" beverage that eliminate drug traces for drug tests, radar detectors so you can beat speed traps, and a whole list of other things. I will say though, the sex ones don't incense me any more than the others.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
In the past my reaction to partners 'cheating' on me was more "Gee, why didn't you just tell me, I'd have no problem with it" than "You betrayed me, how dare you sully our love!" I don't think that someone having sex with  me makes them love me any more, nor does my having sex with other people make me love my emotional partner any less.

In the circles I run in (including Elliquiy to some extent), non-monogamists are at the very least, not intimidated into silence.  My approach is that 'cheating' is defined as 'breaking the rules'.  When you're playing Monopoly, some people use 'house rules', like whether or not you can bond out of jail or how much money you can get for passing Go - the important thing is that everyone who is playing agrees to those rules.  When the average person gets married, they go through the whole 'forsaking all others ... till death do us part' thing - and that's supposed to be the rules.

The rules can be negotiated, and many people do in the form of divorce - but again, it requires that people agree (or in the case of divorce lawyers, bring in a 'referee' to come to an agreement) to change the rules.

Websites and 'services' that Wolfy mentioned are just encouragement to break the rules.  If people weren't looking to break the rules to begin with, they'd go out of business like a shot.

Offline Florence

I was engaged in a poly-amorous relationship for quite a while, and the thing is, we always had rules and boundaries. See, I can see sex and romance as separate to a degree, but the thing is, oddly enough, society's own insistence that it's a romantic activity has ingrained that notion into our minds. On top of that, we all like to feel special, and sex, being a very pleasurable activity, makes us feel special for being able to make our partner that happy. We don't like thinking of the possibility that someone else is capable of bringing them as much, or more pleasure, so we tend to like being the only ones to have sex with them.

That said, I admit, I can be possessive and jealous, so maybe it's good I'm not in a relationship like that anymore, because I do enjoy having... exclusive rights to that activity, shall we say. The big thing though is trust. Even if you're okay with sharing your partner, most people would still be at least a bit upset if their partner went and slept with someone else before even asking if they were okay with it. In that case, it's more about trust. Even more than that exclusivity, we like to feel like we can trust our partners. That's one of the whole points. We live in a world that can be scary and depressing, and we like to think that our partner will be there for us, and that we can trust them with all our hearts, and it hurts a lot to have that trust betrayed by the other partner acting in disregard to our feelings.

Offline Torch

  • Pay no attention to the woman behind the curtain/Trieste's sarcasm buddy
  • Suspended
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2009
  • Location: USA
  • Gender: Female
  • "Soul meets soul on lovers' lips." P.B. Shelley
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
It's hypocrisy at it's finest. If the right wing is worried about the state of marriage in the US, why is it no one bats an eye when Rush Limbaugh marches down the aisle for the third time? I don't see anyone throwing a hissy fit over the fact that Rush probably keeps a divorce attorney on retainer.

Offline RubySlippers

What I don't get is Christians that oppose Gay Marriage don't really seem to mind adultry all that much in their churches, which if one reads Leviticus isn't that also a stoning offense actually its worse if your two men as lovers its JUST an abomination. I'm not sure but that didn't demand they be executed and Talmudic Teachers through the ages seemed to treat it as less of an offense than adultery.

I won't get into the finer points but this seems inconsistant shouldn't they clean up their houses before pointing fingers at Gays? And do I need to mention divorce rates and Jesus frowned on that to so shouldn't they be working on that first?

Offline Hunter

What I don't get is Christians that oppose Gay Marriage don't really seem to mind adultry all that much in their churches, which if one reads Leviticus isn't that also a stoning offense

Yes and if you also look, masterbation is also a no, no. (i.e. spilling one's seed)

Offline fallen paradise

It's hypocrisy at it's finest. If the right wing is worried about the state of marriage in the US, why is it no one bats an eye when Rush Limbaugh marches down the aisle for the third time? I don't see anyone throwing a hissy fit over the fact that Rush probably keeps a divorce attorney on retainer.

It isn't hypocrisy really, and here is why. The dogma of Christianity is love the sinner, hate the sin. Yes, it is bad (in the mind of a Christian) that someone commits adultery. Yes, it is bad (in the mind of a Christian) when someone gets divorced. However, with forgiveness that person has a chance to do right again. Gay marriage, on the other hand, is condoning a relationship that in and off itself violates the dogma of the Church (or at least the dogma as interpreted by certain branches of Christianity.) So it really is not a case of hypocrisy.

I am not saying that I agree with the dogma, but within the framework of the dogma there is no hypocrisy in what you are describing.

As a side note: you later critiqued someone for "stirring the pot" by bringing up irrelevant issues, so just a few things I have to mention. Trying to paint this issue as a "right wing" vs. "left wing" issue is inflammatory and inaccurate. While it may be that more members of the "right wing" oppose gay marriage there are members who support it. While there may be more members of the "left wing" who support gay marriage there are plenty who do not. Using such black and white terms on such an issue is insulting and needlessly confrontational. Secondly, "divorce" is a completely separate issue from "gay marriage". If you would like people to refrain from bringing up other unrelated topics you might want to avoid it yourself. I'll admit that "divorce" is more related to the topic than the other case of hypocrisy mentioned, but really, your post wasn't contributing to the commentary on gay marriage or monogamy (which was actually the original topic, not gay marriage).

Offline Jude

I don't agree with the argument that Gay Marriage isn't left wing vs. right wing, at least in the Republican and Democrat sense.  Are there people on either side who disagree with the party's stance?  Yes.  But the same can be said of several issues.  If the overwhelming majority supports a certain issue (or rejects it) that's part of the party platform, and thus right and left wing deserve to be labeled as such on particular issues.  If you're not happy being grouped in with certain parties, then don't be right wing or left wing: be independent.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 01:16:14 PM by Jude »

Offline fallen paradise

I don't agree with the argument that Gay Marriage isn't left wing vs. right wing, at least in the Republican and Democrat issue.  Are there people on either side who disagree with the party's stance?  Yes.  But the same can be said of several issues.  If the overwhelming majority supports a certain issue (or rejects it) that's part of the party platform, and thus right and left wing deserve to be labeled as such on particular issues.  If you're not happy being grouped in with certain parties, then don't be right wing or left wing: be independent.

Look at the DOMA passed into Law by President Clinton. It was passed overwhelmingly in the House and Senate. In the House it was 342-67, in the Senate it was 84-14. Even most recently President Obama campaigned against DOMA but in 2009 his DoJ defended the laws Constitutionality. And when you look at Civil Union Laws and Same Sex Marriage laws in various states. They have had supporters and detractors on both sides of the aisle.  You may not personally agree that it isn't a right vs. left issue, but the simple votes bear out that it isn't. Furthermore, by painting it as a right vs. left issue you erode the support from the right leaning independents and from the Republicans who support it. It detracts from the issue all around when you try to make it "us vs. them" rather than trying to talk about the issue itself as an issue.

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Yes and if you also look, masterbation is also a no, no. (i.e. spilling one's seed)

Yeah, that one always puzzled me. IIRC the issue there was disobeying a direct order (go get your dead brothers wife pregnant) ... you'd think the lesson there would be don't disobey he boss, rather than no jerking off.

Offline Jude

Hahaha, you got me, I surrender.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Yeah, that one always puzzled me. IIRC the issue there was disobeying a direct order (go get your dead brothers wife pregnant) ... you'd think the lesson there would be don't disobey he boss, rather than no jerking off.

You do recall correctly (the man in question was named Onan).  Also, the 'spilling of seed' wasn't through masturbation, but through coitus interruptus - he would have sex with her and then pull out to 'spill his seed on the ground'.  This is one of those laws (like many in Leviticus) that was very critical to maintaining a small nomadic population, under the 'every sperm is sacred' mindset.  It's much less critical in the overpopulated world we live in.

Offline sartracker

OK, here is my spin on things regarding Gay Marriage,
I have never understood, homophobia, I never understood what the attraction was between those of the same sex. I do understand love though! I also believe that  love between two people regardless of the sexual orientation is just as strong as those of opposite sex, I might even go a step further as say maybe even stronger. I believe their love might be stronger simply because , their love for each other is not as accepted as those of opposite sexes. There for together they have have more commonalities than those relationships between opposite sexes. I am all for gays having those right afforded to me as a straight person. I am of the opinion there is no reasonable argument to be made against us. I believe in God, but I don't believe he hates gays. The old testament was written and re written only God knows what was originally said. It is my hope that equality for gays becomes something that is accepted by everyone. I have and unfortunately had many great gay friends. What give me the right to say " your not equal to me?" Bottom Line! I am all for it   

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
I should point out that gay relationships can be just as fragile as heterosexual relationships.  I've sat with a gay friend as he read the 'Dear John' email that his lover in Michigan had sent to him while he (my friend) was on vacation in Maryland, and didn't receive until he was in the DC area preparing to go 'home' - a home that no longer existed.

Still, for all the fragility, love is precious and should be nurtured, not condemned.

Offline sartracker

I agree with you!  Oniya

Offline Jude

OK, here is my spin on things regarding Gay Marriage,
I have never understood, homophobia, I never understood what the attraction was between those of the same sex. I do understand love though! I also believe that  love between two people regardless of the sexual orientation is just as strong as those of opposite sex, I might even go a step further as say maybe even stronger. I believe their love might be stronger simply because , their love for each other is not as accepted as those of opposite sexes. There for together they have have more commonalities than those relationships between opposite sexes. I am all for gays having those right afforded to me as a straight person. I am of the opinion there is no reasonable argument to be made against us. I believe in God, but I don't believe he hates gays. The old testament was written and re written only God knows what was originally said. It is my hope that equality for gays becomes something that is accepted by everyone. I have and unfortunately had many great gay friends. What give me the right to say " your not equal to me?" Bottom Line! I am all for it   

...so you believe in superiority of homosexual relationships?

Also, opposition to gay marriage is not equatable to homophobia.  You can oppose something without being irrationally afraid of it.  Are some people against gay marriage because they're homophobic?  Yes.  Are all?  No, that's slandering a diverse mixture of people by discounting principled objection as phobia.

I agree that gays should be allowed to marry, but extremism like that gives me pause.

EDIT:  I'm also tired of people talking about love, as if somehow being unable to marry means homosexuals are being denied the privilege to love.  What is being denied is government recognition of your marriage as legitimate, and thus the benefits that come along with such.  It's still wrong, but it's not quite as extreme as people love to put it.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 03:35:39 PM by Jude »

Offline fallen paradise

OK, here is my spin on things regarding Gay Marriage,
I have never understood, homophobia, I never understood what the attraction was between those of the same sex. I do understand love though! I also believe that  love between two people regardless of the sexual orientation is just as strong as those of opposite sex, I might even go a step further as say maybe even stronger. I believe their love might be stronger simply because , their love for each other is not as accepted as those of opposite sexes. There for together they have have more commonalities than those relationships between opposite sexes. I am all for gays having those right afforded to me as a straight person. I am of the opinion there is no reasonable argument to be made against us. I believe in God, but I don't believe he hates gays. The old testament was written and re written only God knows what was originally said. It is my hope that equality for gays becomes something that is accepted by everyone. I have and unfortunately had many great gay friends. What give me the right to say " your not equal to me?" Bottom Line! I am all for it   


I can agree with all of this, but playing Devil's Advocate is fun, so here we go.

One argument I often see for gay marriage is that "Marriage is Love." Bull. Marriage is nothing about love, marriage under the eyes of the church is a religious bond that has (in many cases) very little to do with love and more with procreation. From a civil standpoint marriage has even less to do with love and is more about inheritance and property rights. Historically under the religious modality homosexuality and marriage was bad because you had less people producing more people. If you are a small nomadic tribe you would much rather have your men and women in heterosexual sham relationships pumping out babies then being happy and with someone they "love". Love doesn't matter, survival does.

In a historic sense there wasn't much need for a civil same sex marriage status because without offspring there are less concerns such as child care, inheritance, and so forth. So for a while really, there was no need for same sex marriage because predominantly laws around marriage, such as who could get married to whom, were concerned more with (again) procreation.

Now, the civic arguments break down in the modern world. With invitrofertalization and adoption you now have many same sex unions who have offspring and need the protections for the children of those union. Also, as our country developed a more complex tax code there were financial benefits to being married, such a easier estate handling, access to retirement funds, health care, etc. The sticky widget was the fact that marriage has two lives as a term, the secular civic definition and the religious ceremonial definition. If we can just break the connection of the terms, either by coming up with a new term for civic of civil unions we might be able to progress in a way that doesn't piss everyone off.

The benefit of arguing for civil unions is that you really can identify the people who are incensed due to homophobic tendencies then, as opposed to people who may have trouble with the secular and sacred duality of the term marriage. Case in point, I have never heard a single argument against civil unions from either side, except that many times the rights aren't 100% equal, that are convincing. I see no problem with either establishing civil unions as a true equal to marriage, or abolishing marriage completely and calling it call civil unions.

((Basically what Jude said, but in a longer more rambling sense))

Offline sartracker

I guess I should have just said "I am for"

Offline fallen paradise

Sartracker, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. The love argument is a valid reason the religions should recognize gay marriage, at least if that particular faith believes that love is the important bond of marriage. But as a legal argument it is kinda tepid at best, the government, in general, doesn't care if you love your spouse or not. Hell, my gay uncle married my straight aunt. Why? Because they have lived together for decades and when one of them dies they want to make it easy for the other person to get their money/property. I'm sure they "love" each other, but that is certainly not why they got married.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Speaking of Marriage benefits, I seem to recall an old story...I wish I could remember the names of the people involved, but:

There was a man, and his gay lover. Said Lover owned their house, and everything inside. The two weren't married, because of course it's not allowed. The lover dies, without leaving a will. His family takes EVERYTHING from the man that loved him. House and everything inside it, Everything goes to them instead of him.


o-o There are truly some evil people in this world.