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Author Topic: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Basically Full)  (Read 17674 times)

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Offline Ixy

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2010, 12:09:56 PM »
that is a neat idea-- the rogue class has so much potential for variation, that there's any number of ways to specialize it.  A character might not even be a rogue to be a thief, as evidenced by famous reaver/barbarians of some canonical fictions...

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2010, 12:14:37 PM »
Indeed. ;D And there are plenty of mage-thief possibilities, from the Beguiler to various prestige classes.  I can even think of a way to make a Cleric who's a thief...

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2010, 12:24:45 PM »
Ooh, definite potential here. Who needs stealth to be a thief, just erase your existence from the brains of anyone who looks at you. :)

Offline Ixy

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2010, 12:29:29 PM »
sure-- Gankus, god of the five finger discount...

but in seriousness, that's an interesting idea.  It might be interesting if a cleric's deity had commanded them to infiltrate the thieves' guild and not interfere except to protect or redirect stolen relics.  Wouldn't work for most of the deities, but maybe for a few.... maybe a LE deity demands their followers ascend the power structures of the underground?  It just starts departing, in some ways, from the idea of a cleric when these ideas are thrown out because the role of a thieves' guild member seems to lack the worship/ritual aspect of clerical duties.  But I'm sure you could find a way to make it work.

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2010, 12:33:38 PM »
Olidamarra comes to mind as a viable deity for a Thieves' Guild member.  As does The Traveller for Eberron, and I'm sure there's an appropriate deity in the Realms, as well.

And the idea I had for a thieving cleric build involved multiclassing between Cloistered Cleric and Rogue, so... *shrugs*

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2010, 01:33:19 PM »
Really, any Chaotic Good deity could at least endorse a thieving cleric, and there's got to be at least one god in any setting that actively supports thieves - thieves have to pray to someone after all.

The benefit of a thief-centered game is that it scales fairly well across levels - higher level heists are still heists, it's just the nature of the defenses - you're not dodging Warriors and guard dogs, you're avoiding Dimensional Lock zones and sneaking past Iron Golems. The walls of the bank vault won't be steel, they'll be magically hardened obdurium or permanent Walls of Force. The problem of a thief-centered game is, by definition, it's a PCs-vs.-DM adventure, since the ultimate goal for the PCs is to 'beat' the obstacles and traps in their way....a DM always wins such struggles if they want to, and it's the mark of a higher-grade DM to be able to avoid reflexive actions like that. Banning Teleport spells, for instance, would be a bit ham-handed...but it'd be criminally negligent for any bank or rich merchant to not have their treasure vaults under a Forbiddance or Dimension Lock effect.

Offline ff

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2010, 01:42:52 PM »
Faerun has Mask, God of thievery, and Cyric has many rogues and assassins too. Also Sharess is thematic for charisma based thieves - dancing and wiles/seduction etc. Also Shar, goddess of night, and  there was that elven trickery God.

Most every temple has its agents. I have an FR rogue who worships the Red Knight, (LN), the 'Lady of Strategy'. She likes to surprise and flank.

FR had a rogue-with-divine-abilities PrC in fact, with relic-snathing char concept text quite akin to the ideas being discussed here.

Most dnd is about getting into places uninvited any getting out w some snatching or dispatching in the middle, so such plots need not favor rogues or any other particular class mechanically.

Offline Aether

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2010, 01:55:38 PM »
Mr TheGlyphstone, sir.

I absolutely love role playing systems, and 3.5 is a pretty decent one.  I keep passing these threads by because of the level of interest at the onset is so thick and heavy, and I just dont want to be yet another number past 8 that represents too much too handle for a good gaming thread. 

Are you indeed at or beyond the level of which can be managed sanely?

I love the idea of the Thieving Organization.  I have a perfect character in mind for it.  One of a code orientated individual that adheres to his edicts and his principles, yet can manipulate any regulation to his benefit.  He is trained to go unnoticed, to be a blank in the crowd.  He is skilled at bringing any situation in which he is entangled to a manageable conclusion though benefiting his own purse and interests.  He can fit the bill and be yet another muscle in a well layered plan, or slip in between the shadows and infiltrate the impossibly impregnable keep for the prize...

I am referring to the LE monk, the one whoms organization has its members out for hire to benefit the order, or whoms members moonlight for their own gain.

*shivers*

Yeah, so anyways, I would love to get involved, and at the level of which we speak, the monk is still relatively tame and is just really starting to come into an aspect of reasonableness in the concept of survivability vs ability.

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2010, 02:00:19 PM »
*strongly recommends the Unarmed Swordsage over the Monk class, as the latter is extremely poorly-designed and the former can be made to have the same general flavor and abilities*

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2010, 02:02:54 PM »
*strongly recommends the Unarmed Swordsage over the Monk class, as the latter is extremely poorly-designed and the former can be made to have the same general flavor and abilities*

*seconds this, Unarmed Swordsage is Monk+9000 in every possible way.*

Incidentally...no need to ask me, I'm just a hopeful player. We haven't even found a DM yet.

Offline Aether

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2010, 02:06:16 PM »
I know monks...  *sighs*  Where would i find info on the unarmed swordsage?  I guess i could work any class into a reasonable identity with a thieving guild.

Anyhoos, I am so interested.

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2010, 02:12:03 PM »
It's a variant of the Swordsage class from the Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, aka Gygax's Gift To Melee. Made of win and awesome, along with the Warblade and Crusader from the same book.

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2010, 02:13:02 PM »
The benefit of a thief-centered game is that it scales fairly well across levels - higher level heists are still heists, it's just the nature of the defenses - you're not dodging Warriors and guard dogs, you're avoiding Dimensional Lock zones and sneaking past Iron Golems. The walls of the bank vault won't be steel, they'll be magically hardened obdurium or permanent Walls of Force. The problem of a thief-centered game is, by definition, it's a PCs-vs.-DM adventure, since the ultimate goal for the PCs is to 'beat' the obstacles and traps in their way....a DM always wins such struggles if they want to, and it's the mark of a higher-grade DM to be able to avoid reflexive actions like that. Banning Teleport spells, for instance, would be a bit ham-handed...but it'd be criminally negligent for any bank or rich merchant to not have their treasure vaults under a Forbiddance or Dimension Lock effect.

The weird part is the defense/value ration gets deeply out of whack.  That is, the amount of security you need to keep high-level PCs out of your loot ends up equaling a significant portion of the loot you want to secure.

Incidentally, has anyone else here seen Inception?  It might be one of the best heist flicks I've ever seen.  And if I were to play a psion (which I'm inclined to do at the moment, somewhat), we might even be able to do the "heist inside the enemy's mind" thing.

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2010, 02:13:40 PM »
I know monks...  *sighs*  Where would i find info on the unarmed swordsage?  I guess i could work any class into a reasonable identity with a thieving guild.

Anyhoos, I am so interested.

The Swordsage is in the book Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, and the unarmed variant is in the 'Adaptation' section for that class.

If you don't own the book, I might be able to provide a helpful link, though if you can track down a copy, I think you'll be more than happy to own it.  It's basically got the best options for melee classes in 3.5 D&D. ^^;

Offline Aether

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2010, 02:19:07 PM »
*huggles Kunoichi*

Thanks!

I will work on tracking it down!

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2010, 02:24:48 PM »
You're welcome. ^^ Good luck on finding it.

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2010, 02:27:04 PM »
The weird part is the defense/value ration gets deeply out of whack.  That is, the amount of security you need to keep high-level PCs out of your loot ends up equaling a significant portion of the loot you want to secure.

Incidentally, has anyone else here seen Inception?  It might be one of the best heist flicks I've ever seen.  And if I were to play a psion (which I'm inclined to do at the moment, somewhat), we might even be able to do the "heist inside the enemy's mind" thing.

That's a good point - though along those lines, the higher-level you are, the more likely it'll be that the 'loot' isn't something you can easily put a GP value on. Information, artifacts, the sort of "priceless treasures" that really good heist stories are made of.

EDIT: The Hope Diamond is valued at 350 million dollars US...can you imagine how expensive the security around it must be?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 02:35:42 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Katina Tarask

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2010, 02:29:08 PM »
that is a neat idea-- the rogue class has so much potential for variation, that there's any number of ways to specialize it.  A character might not even be a rogue to be a thief, as evidenced by famous reaver/barbarians of some canonical fictions...
Really, 'thief' doesn't even suggest Rogue.  I believe you recall my Cleric stealing a T-Rex from a crowded room.  After all, not everyone needs the stealth/perception/trap/lock suite to be in a thieves' guild.

Though things may be more flexible for a thieves' guild game if, as a houserule, all classes got the stealth skills for free.
and  there was that elven trickery God.
You mean all of them? :P

Such is the way of chaotic races.

Offline PhantomPistoleer

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2010, 02:50:58 PM »
That's an intriguing idea, K!  A thieves' guild campaign.  ::sighs happily::

I'd like to voice my interest myself, but I'm a bit skeptical about a GM stepping up and taking the reins of a high level campaign.

Offline Tom

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2010, 02:55:17 PM »
In light of the comments that have come up, I'm going to withdraw my application for DM. I think a thieves' guild game sounds fun though. Maybe I'll request a game for something along those lines.

Good luck with this one!

Offline Aether

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2010, 03:12:57 PM »
Okay, Kunoichi...

"A swordsage works very well as a supernatural martial artist of almost any school of origin.  To create a monk like character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency."

I have not read everything, but if I am getting this right, the list of maneuvers is going to out weigh the other things a monk has access to, like the armorclass bonuses from wisdom and the monk ac bonus, their increased speed as they level, etc?  Gotta say initially, I dont like the concept of being even more vulnerable than a monk in this respect.

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2010, 03:31:08 PM »
Okay, Kunoichi...

"A swordsage works very well as a supernatural martial artist of almost any school of origin.  To create a monk like character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency."

I have not read everything, but if I am getting this right, the list of maneuvers is going to out weigh the other things a monk has access to, like the armorclass bonuses from wisdom and the monk ac bonus, their increased speed as they level, etc?  Gotta say initially, I dont like the concept of being even more vulnerable than a monk in this respect.

You still get Wisdom to AC, and while it removes your proficiency with light armor, it doesn't change the fact that the Swordsage version of Wis-to-AC works in light armor as well as no armor.  You also technically wind up less-vulnerable than the Monk overall, because the Swordsage has quite a few ways to wind up with miss chances as it goes up in levels.  Lots of the maneuvers and stances from the Shadow Hand school, for example.

You can wind up with a good approximation of the abilities a Monk has by focusing on the Shadow Hand, Setting Sun and Diamond Mind maneuvers, along with the two-weapon-oriented maneuvers from the Tiger Claw school for flurry of blows.

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2010, 03:31:23 PM »
Swordsages get their Wis bonus to AC also - by defaut, when wearing light armor, but with the unarmed variant, when unarmored like a monk. They don't get built-in speed boosts, but several of their mid-range maneuvers include Move-action and eventually Swift-action 50ft. teleports, a bigger one-shot boost than even a 20th level Monk gets with the advantage of bypassing terrain. 

On the plus side, their offensive ability blows any Monk out of the water. Strikes and Boosts allow the 'Sage to move their full speed and still have respectable damage output, where a Monk needs to stand in one place for a full-attack Flurry to get anything approaching worthwhile damage. Maneuvers along outweigh everything a monk can possibly bring to the table in a fight, along with the Swordsage's built-in class features.


EDIT: Ninja'ed by Kuno.

Offline Aether

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2010, 03:33:30 PM »
Okay, I am getting the feel here for why this is an amazing variant of a monk.  I will keep reading and pose more questions later  ^.^

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2010, 03:41:03 PM »
Alright. ^^ I'll be going somewhere soon, though, so you'll have to rely on Glyph for your answers for the rest of  the day.