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Author Topic: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Basically Full)  (Read 17630 times)

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Offline ulthakptah

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #100 on: August 05, 2010, 10:22:01 PM »
The landlord feat says that multiple people can pull the resources together, so do we all just want to all own a huge castle together?

Offline PhantomPistoleer

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #101 on: August 05, 2010, 10:22:47 PM »
 
So, you made a factotum with a good Will save progression. Well, factotums are nice. :)

(Unless your cohort's an artificer...then manufacture all sorts of esoteric stacking bonuses to Truespeech and actually be able to use your class abilities. ;D)

You always build me up to knock me down.

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #102 on: August 05, 2010, 10:26:09 PM »
Sorry, anything but the truenamer, I'd applaud, because Factotum is that awesome...but I do adhere to the Tier scale, and Truenamer is infamous for being the only Tier N/A class as literally unplayable by RAW without houserules or serious optimization. If you really crank on the cheese, it can be effective, but it's not easy.

Offline Katina Tarask

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #103 on: August 05, 2010, 10:29:47 PM »
... Truenamer?  I won't say no, but please don't.  Even with Factotum (which can only add its level to any given skill once per day), that class just does not work.  It's the biggest trainwreck of a class WotC's ever put out.  Even, say, Warlock would work better even with the truenaming flavor.

But if you insist on going this route, just don't take it lightly and don't assume that Factutum makes you able to actually use Truespeak.  Unless you can consistently make at least a DC50 Truespeak check, it's a very bad idea.


Ulthak: You can pool your resources if you want, or have your own separate domains, though there'll be some houserules regarding the stronghold, essentially rolling it together with your stronghold, so I need some time to get that together and simple.

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #104 on: August 05, 2010, 10:39:32 PM »
... Truenamer?  I won't say no, but please don't.  Even with Factotum (which can only add its level to any given skill once per day), that class just does not work.  It's the biggest trainwreck of a class WotC's ever put out.  Even, say, Warlock would work better even with the truenaming flavor.

But if you insist on going this route, just don't take it lightly and don't assume that Factutum makes you able to actually use Truespeak.  Unless you can consistently make at least a DC50 Truespeak check, it's a very bad idea.


Ulthak: You can pool your resources if you want, or have your own separate domains, though there'll be some houserules regarding the stronghold, essentially rolling it together with your stronghold, so I need some time to get that together and simple.

Like I said, it's not easy.
Level 10 = +13 ranks.
Int 22min = +6 bonus.
Skill Focus and Greater Skill Focus (Truespeech) = +6 bonus.
Amulet of the Silver Tongue = +10 enhancement, costs 10,000GP.
Custom Item of +10 competence to Truespeech (a Ring likely) = 10,000 GP
Universal Aptitude utterance on yourself  = untyped +5, a limited # of times per day
That's a +45/+50 to the check for 20K minus crafting discounts for having your cohort make it, and 2 feats.  It can go further, but that involves the real hardcore cheese, like being a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold and abusing the passage in Draconomicon that makes Dragonwrought Kobolds eligible for Epic feats, then taking Epic Skill Focus (Truespeech). Then there's Item Familiar, but that's just as bad.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 10:45:01 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline PhantomPistoleer

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #105 on: August 05, 2010, 10:43:14 PM »
Hmm.

Well, I don't want a martial adept...  so, it's down to Archivist, Binder or... well, are there any other classes that mesh well with the factotum?  I might just go with wizard/loremaster... :/

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #106 on: August 05, 2010, 10:47:02 PM »
Anything that likes Int goes well with Factotum. Swashbucklers like Int if you want to be a melee fighter. Any sort of caster loooooves Factotum 8+ for Cunning Surge and its ubernova capabilities - Wizard or Archivist primarily. Artificers like Int as well, be a mobile item factory and have our entire party be obscenely over WBL. :)

Offline Katina Tarask

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #107 on: August 05, 2010, 10:53:15 PM »
There's always Artificer.  Totemist is an effective non-martial-adept melee class.  Paizo's new Witch (which isn't gender-specific) or Alchemist could be a nice way to mix things up and are both intelligence-based.

Swashbuckler's really not something you take more than a few levels in, but if you follow up with a shiny PrC, it could be a nice addition.

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #108 on: August 05, 2010, 11:05:50 PM »
Totemist is fun, and as a CON-dependent class, it synergizes with basically everything.

Offline Aether

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #109 on: August 05, 2010, 11:16:16 PM »
This has become an uber power munchkining story, eh?

I almost feel if my character cant absorb all very and most possible ways to tweak and make himself ultimate cheese...

Good gods...

Gestalt say to go with passive attributes in one character, arrayed by active abilities on the other side.

That means warblades combined with a passive INT based class, or barbarians, fighters, paladins, rangers...

To be quite honest, I have poured through several boards on ultimate combos and my brain is flooded.

What would you all join with a warblade and a swordsage respectively?

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #110 on: August 05, 2010, 11:22:43 PM »
We're not all munchkining, but part of Gestalt is finding synergies - since you only get one set of stats, you want to pick two classes that like having the same stats high, so one of them isn't wasted.

The "ultimate cheese' was just for when PP wanted to be a Truenamer, which is bar none the most atrociously weak, badly designed, and utterly horrific class ever made by WotC. It's unplayable unless you cheese, but he gave up the idea.

Warblade and Swordsage could work, but it's a bit wasteful of potential, since they're both "active" classes. You might get overwhelmed by the sheer number of maneuvers you had and which half of your progression had them. I'd go with full Warblade on one side, a few levels of Swashbuckler for Int-to-damage on the other, then Fighter levels for bonus feats or Barbarian levels for Rage. Fighter and Barbarian are both pretty passive classes in their abilities. Fairly simple, and quite effective for the most part.

Offline PhantomPistoleer

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #111 on: August 05, 2010, 11:24:31 PM »
I think I like the Artificer, but I need a few questions answered first:

What would my total pool for craft points, seeing as to how I never had the opportunity to use any points from previous levels?

How would craft points be treated in this campaign?

Would I start out with action points?

Would I need to roll for any equipment before the game starts?

Do I actually need the Craft: whatever skill to craft these things?  Or do I just do it in general?

Is there any page where costs are broken down specifically for an artificer?

Offline Aether

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #112 on: August 05, 2010, 11:28:45 PM »
lol.

I was not meaning a combo of warblade / swordsage, more of a good combo for them.  Mostly the web suggests ardent/psion/rogue for warblade and there is just a mix for swordsage....  Since Katina has said combat will be mainly dealt with from ToB, I am almost thinking it best to do one or the other and find a good marriage for the SS or WB.

In thinking this may be more manageable for me, I am almost thinking classic monk/cleric, though that is still so one dimensional in my mind.  Monk/wizard is just so book keeping heavy with spells, and I think monk/rogue may be a waste.

There is way too much out there in the ways of PrCs for me to even think straight.

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #113 on: August 05, 2010, 11:36:09 PM »
I'm really torn.  I don't have the knowledge of classes needed to effectively do anything crazy.  I'm thinking of either a Wizard/Psion (Ultimate toolkit PC, plus spells with which to cut down the cost of Stronghold construction.), or maybe a Monk/Psion with Kung Fu Genius.  I don't think there's a Kung Fu Genius equivalent for Unarmed Swordsage, is there?  Because I'd be equally happy with that.  I invite commntary on this - I'm way more interested in being able to do well-rounded out of combat stuff than I am in being super-killy.

Offline Katina Tarask

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #114 on: August 05, 2010, 11:41:29 PM »
Aether: I'd say for Warblade, number one would be Warblade//Artificer, if you're willing to keep up with the bookkeeping.  More gear is good, though that's starting to step on PP's toes.  So would Factotum, my next suggestion.  Then comes Psion, Rogue, Bard, any number of things.

For Swordsage, I'd say Swordsage//Ardent (complete psionic).  Ardent's a wisdom-based manifester that can get you some great buffs.  Doesn't do much for your skeleton, though.  Something with full BAB may be nice, too.

I'd also be willing to let you spend a feat to swap a casting stat, so you could get a wisdom-based Psion (which would be simpler) for psychometabolic fun on your Swordsage.  Use powers more for buffs, swift actions, and utility either way.

Also, I didn't mean that combat would be mainly ToB, but that it would be the standard for melee.  A melee NPC's either going to be using magic or ToB unless it's a giant or something (which is just a sack of meat anyways).

PP:
I'll let you use the "wasted" craft points however you please in character creation.

Craft points are treated as normal, replacing XP, and any XP not covered are charged at 5gp a pop rather than actually using XP as a currency.

No action points.

I'll let you take 10 on UMD to craft during character creation, even if you don't have that class ability yet.

Craft: Whatever is not necessary, but it's fun to have.  If you're making homunculi and you can't craft their bodies yourself, though, you'll need to buy the bodies (of course, you do the enchanting yourself).

I know of no such page, but crafting a magic item generally costs half its market price in gp and one 25th its market price in XP (which is, again, converted to 5gp each, subject to XP cost reductions, but not subject to gp cost reductions).

Wyzard:
I'd let there be a Kung Fu Genius equivalent for Unarmed Swordsage.

Offline ulthakptah

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #115 on: August 05, 2010, 11:55:54 PM »
I'm making a Half Minotaur Illumian Duskblade 10||LA +1/Fighter 4/War Hulk 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1 Little weird I know. I hope its ok, if you want to check out the parts Illumians are from races of destiny, Half Minotaur template is from dragon magazine 313, and War Hulk is from miniatures handbook.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 11:58:19 PM by ulthakptah »

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #116 on: August 05, 2010, 11:59:45 PM »
I'm annoyed...Thrallherd is a Cha-centric PrC based in an Int-centric base class...and for some stupid reason, it requires the Inquisitor feat as a prerequisite, which needs Wis 13 to obtain. Grumbling ensues...grumble grumble. Though, on the bright side, that's also necessary for Psionic Meditation, so meh.

Kat: Any chance you'll throw a few bonus skill points our way to spend on Sexual Prowess, if we're using the GUCK rules? It'd be nice to have at least some basic proficiency in gettin' in on, and not everyone can afford good Cha modifiers.


As for my character...the cohort's more thought out than I am at this point. I can't really think of anything that fits effectively with the character, since I had to spread my point buy around a bit more than I'd like. I'm going Psion 6/??? 4//??? 5/Thrallherd 5, to keep 10th-level manifesting abilities - but that leaves a total of 4 early levels and 5 later levels I don't know what to do with, that'd benefit somewhat from decent Int and Cha scores.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 12:04:28 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Katina Tarask

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #117 on: August 06, 2010, 12:08:49 AM »
Glyph, I did mention I'd let you spend a feat to switch casting stats, so you can make charisma your casting stat as a Psion.  However, no extra skill points.  If you wanna be awesome in bed, ya gotta pay for it.
I'm making a Half Minotaur Illumian Duskblade 10||LA +1/Fighter 4/War Hulk 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1 Little weird I know. I hope its ok, if you want to check out the parts Illumians are from races of destiny, Half Minotaur template is from dragon magazine 313, and War Hulk is from miniatures handbook.
...and the character behind this is...?

Half-minotaur, I'm okay with if you have a decent character behind it, but War Hulk is out for any number of reasons.

Do keep in mind, you're supposed to be a leader.  Irrevocable retardation as a class feature is not conducive to leadership.  Also, this being E, I would prefer the characters be at least somewhat charming and attractive, rather than bizarre monstrous freaks.  A mechanically solid character is good, but it's irrelevant without a solid person behind the numbers.  There's gonna be some heavy RP going on in place of developed domain management, with politicking and such, and this guy is just seems way out of place unless you can back it up.

Also, you can't have a War Hulk/Exotic Weapon Master.  Retardation means you can't get ranks in Craft.

Online TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #118 on: August 06, 2010, 12:25:41 AM »
That's not really the problem. I'm cool with splitting my point buy between Int and Cha, it's the big-lipped alligator moment of needing Wis 13 for a feat I'll never use and which has no relation whatsoever to the theme or mechanical benefits of the prestige class that annoys me. WoTC is stupid sometimes...there's so many more logical things to put there - Psionic Endowment, or heck, even Persuasive would make more sense. It's not like your believers can lie to you or anything...ah well.

Offline ulthakptah

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #119 on: August 06, 2010, 12:36:47 AM »
Glyph, I did mention I'd let you spend a feat to switch casting stats, so you can make charisma your casting stat as a Psion.  However, no extra skill points.  If you wanna be awesome in bed, ya gotta pay for it....and the character behind this is...?

Half-minotaur, I'm okay with if you have a decent character behind it, but War Hulk is out for any number of reasons.

Do keep in mind, you're supposed to be a leader.  Irrevocable retardation as a class feature is not conducive to leadership.  Also, this being E, I would prefer the characters be at least somewhat charming and attractive, rather than bizarre monstrous freaks.  A mechanically solid character is good, but it's irrelevant without a solid person behind the numbers.  There's gonna be some heavy RP going on in place of developed domain management, with politicking and such, and this guy is just seems way out of place unless you can back it up.

Also, you can't have a War Hulk/Exotic Weapon Master.  Retardation means you can't get ranks in Craft.
The feature is actually called "No Time to Think" and it just treats the mental skills as if they have 0 ranks in it, so one could have 3 ranks in craft just if he were to use it to make something no skill points would be added to his roll. As for the character I was hoping the Illumian, and half minotaur would balance each other out into a tall gruff humanoid that would be moderately attractive. I mean he won't be pretty like an elf, and he'll have horns, but devils have horns, and lots of people find them charming. Also with leadership not everyone uses flowery words to lead, and Intimidate is unaffected by No Time to Think. Anyway the only reason I wanted the half minotaur was for the warhulk, so if warhulk is out I'll just make something else.

Offline Aether

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #120 on: August 06, 2010, 12:52:41 AM »
I am leaning on you all greatly....

Mantles for Ardents.  Suggestions and why.  This is based on choosing and Ardent opposite the Swordsage.  Also, the powers at 1-9 are equivalent to spell level, buy psionic power, correct?

Did I hear you correctly, Katina, that we could choose any skill known and that we are not restricted by our chosen classes?

Offline PhantomPistoleer

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #121 on: August 06, 2010, 01:02:32 AM »
Brief clarification before I proceed:

Say that I would like to build a Mithral Fullplate of Moderate Fortification +3.  According to the rules, I only need to have the appropriate CL of the higher rating between the enhancement and the ability;  so, the enhancement being 3, the CL would be 9, and the CL for Moderate Fortification is 12.  I read somewhere that the artificer is treated as having a CL of two higher than his class, but I read that in an online handbook somewhere.

So, given all this, the sum of all of my labor is:  46,650gp, which is then halved because I'm crafting and then halved again because two of my feats subtract 25% from the market price.

This means that I end up paying 11662.5 gp.

I then take a 1/25th of the market price, then multiply it by .75 since I deduct 25% from xp, and voila.  I pay 1399.5 in xp, or craft points.

Does this sound right?

Offline Katina Tarask

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #122 on: August 06, 2010, 01:16:37 AM »
Aether: I'm going to bed shortly, so I can't dig through mantles right now, but yes, you can ignore class skills.  If you think it makes sense for your Fighter/Barbarian to take full ranks in Perform (Accordion), go for it.
The feature is actually called "No Time to Think" and it just treats the mental skills as if they have 0 ranks in it, so one could have 3 ranks in craft just if he were to use it to make something no skill points would be added to his roll. As for the character I was hoping the Illumian, and half minotaur would balance each other out into a tall gruff humanoid that would be moderately attractive. I mean he won't be pretty like an elf, and he'll have horns, but devils have horns, and lots of people find them charming. Also with leadership not everyone uses flowery words to lead, and Intimidate is unaffected by No Time to Think. Anyway the only reason I wanted the half minotaur was for the warhulk, so if warhulk is out I'll just make something else.
No Time To Think is very clear.  You are considered to have no ranks in intelligence-based skills.  So, for qualifying for Exotic Weapon Master, you are considered to have zero ranks in craft and thus cannot get in.  However, War Hulk is out either way.

And I don't require elf-beautiful (I don't even like elves all that much), but... there's a limit.  War Hulk is past it.

Do note that all you've given me so far is "Giant brute with a neon sign over his head," which is really worrying without additional qualification and explanation as to what the Hell this thing is beyond those numbers.

PP:
Artificer is treated as 2 higher (mostly; check the limitations in the class), so a 10th-level Artificer could make a 12th-level ability.

However, the CL of a piece of equipment is equal to three times its effective enhancement bonus.  A +3 enhancement with moderate fortification (a +3 ability) comes out to +6, which requires a CL of 18.

Also, if you want to make what is effectively a +6 suit of mithral armor, you're not actually making a +6 suit of mithral armor.  You're taking a preexisting suit of masterwork mithral armor (the price of which is outside of your benefits, unless you make it yourself, in which case it would be a separate nonmagical item), then enchanting it with your +6-equivalent enchantments (which you can't actually pull off just yet, you're limited to +4-equivalent for now, but moving on...)

So, the market price of the enchantment would be 36,000gp.  Halve that for making it yourself, for 18,000 gp.

However, it sounds like you're using both Magical Artisan and Extraordinary (or whatever the gp one is) Artisan.  If that's the case, I can't allow that, since it's stacking the same effect across settings.  If it's something else, lemme know.

As for how cost reductions stack?  Two -25% reductions would not be -50%.  25% off of 18k is 13500.  25% off 13500 is 10125gp, on top of whatever the physical armor itself cost.

For XP, 18k/25 is 720 XP.  25% off that is 540.  That can come out of craft points, but as a houserule, I'm not letting XP be treated as a currency; instead, you pay five times the remainder in gp (your other gp reductions don't apply).  So, if you spent 200 craft points, there'd be 340 XP left, which becomes 1700 gp, which you add to your 10125 gp plus whatever the original armor cost.

Offline ff

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #123 on: August 06, 2010, 01:24:33 AM »
Aww, I was going to haul a half-dozen or so around, they're so useful! Scouts, pack mules, trap detectors, trail rations.... ;D

Going to build my cohortthrall as a bodyguard though, if that's okay. I'd sort of feel obligated to take an artificer if the cohort also has to stay behind, because it's a class feature for me instead of a free bonus feat.


EDIT: In another game I'm playing, the DM gave us extra skill points to spend on Sexual Prowess from GUCK, any chance you'll do the same?

I've never done followers, but my feeling was always that what would should do is, have them learn some good debuff spell (like Hideous Laughter, Blindness, or later instant death stuff). No matter how low their DCs are, non-immune* enemies will have a 1/20 chance of failing each one, so with a few score followers you have a good chance...

...preferably a Long range spell, so the BBEG can't nuke 'em all with one fireball/breath.

* Mix up the spells in each volley to cover various immunities.  Also, ability damage effects (although some can't reduce the score below 1).

Offline PhantomPistoleer

Re: Mid-to-high level D&D 3.5? (Hunting GM)
« Reply #124 on: August 06, 2010, 01:25:34 AM »
Thanks, K!  I think I got it now!