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Author Topic: Religion...and SCIENCE! (Nee - Re: Oh..those people at westboro baptist are at it again! o3o)  (Read 13320 times)

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Offline Lord DrakeTopic starter

Unfortunately nothing will ever stop them until their natural deaths. Phelps is a sick, twisted bitter old man... who has one hell of a shady past (just check out his wikipedia page for a good overview) and a true zealot... and he also has (often misused) sources to back up what he says. I've listened/seen a few debates he's been involved with and his bible knowledge (at least on this topic) is incredible. What that gives him is a framework and a base to cling to that means he'll never be convinced of the fault in his arguments. Hopefully when he passes he family fades away and no more children are indoctrinate

I will only mention (ONLY mention because this would risk hijacking the thread) that actual literal Bible-quoting (especially the old testament) should not be the way a Christian upholds his religion/convictions. At least, in the modern view of many of us.

The problem with those zealots is that they give an extremely intolerant interpretation on something that has been actually been written more than two thousand years ago. I am not sure I could not debate with this Phelps guy myself... I probably would, although I do not think I would obtain any effect.

Offline HairyHeretic

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The problem is that you can cherry pick quotes from the bible to justify pretty much any viewpoint. Guess who tend to pick the more extreme ones?

Offline MasterMischief

The problem is that you can cherry pick quotes from the bible to justify pretty much any viewpoint.

...and claim it as the absolute truth.  That is what I find dangerous.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Not a viewpoint entirely restricted to religion, but knowing with absolute certainty that you're right, everyone else is wrong, because your holy writ says so does add a certain something to a fanatics viewpoint.

Offline MasterMischief

Not a viewpoint entirely restricted to religion...

Oh, yes, a very good point.  Agreed.

Offline Lord DrakeTopic starter

The problem is that you can cherry pick quotes from the bible to justify pretty much any viewpoint. Guess who tend to pick the more extreme ones?

The problem here is that given a sufficiently big book (or more than one) that contains interesting and suitably epic quotations, one can cherry pick things from there too! It is just a literary exercise... I am sure that there are quotations in the SILMARILLION that can be used against comic fans (you are DOOMED, I say DOOMED!).

Offline MasterMischief

At the risk of drawing HH's wrath again, we are talking about quotes that come from The Man himself...or at least one of his representatives.  It is not just a big book.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Well, it's quality of just a book kinda depends on whether its your holy book or not, doesn't it?

Offline Lord DrakeTopic starter

At the risk of drawing HH's wrath again, we are talking about quotes that come from The Man himself...or at least one of his representatives.  It is not just a big book.

Sure but "cherry picking quotes" from there is not the way to go.

Explaing which is (my opinion at least) the true meaning of the Bible and pointing a couple places in the new testament where it seems that cheesy following of the laws is NOT the way to go would be a very interesting thing but it would hijack this thread completely.

Maybe I'll open a thread someday. If anyone is interested, I am open to PMs too.

^^

Offline MasterMischief

I do not believe anyone here was advocating that.  In fact, I am pretty sure we are all speaking against 'cherry picking'.

Offline Lord DrakeTopic starter

I do not believe anyone here was advocating that.  In fact, I am pretty sure we are all speaking against 'cherry picking'.

Sure. ^^

The one who IS advocating that is Mr. Zealot Phelps. It was to him that was directed my rant (ok I know he will not probably be able to read that but...).

Offline HairyHeretic

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Yep. Wot he said.

With the right quotes, the bible can be used to justify misogyny, slavery, genocide, and lots of other things that we would consider Not Good.

Offline MasterMischief

It was to him that was directed my rant...

Ah, my apologies then.

Offline Jude

Well, if you don't cherry pick, don't you get the worst of everything?  If anything, I think the Westboro Baptist Church adheres to more of the scripture than other Christian sects do.  They don't ignore the ugliness of Leviticus for the sake of convenience.  That isn't to say I think they're better, I just think it's important to have an interpretation of the bible that recognizes setting and doesn't believe in divine inspiration.

You can believe in the "theme" of the bible without believing every single word; recognizing that it was written by people, people who passed their own fallible opinions along with the "good stuff" is the way to a more constructive religious viewpoint while still holding true to the core of the message as it relates to Jesus, forgiveness, and all of the principles that a lot of people associate with being Christ-like.

Of course I don't fall into this category, so my emphasis on this liberal interpretation is probably very self-serving; still I find it troubling that a lot of mainstream organizations still believe in a literal interpretation and are every bit as bad as the Westboro Baptist church.  The difference between them and WBC is level of exposure; WBC is at odd with modern culture and they know it, they don't shy away from it.  Other Christian Denominations play games to try and make themselves seem modern while still holding the same opinions.

I'm not sure that there's much that the Catholic Church disagrees with them on for example.  Both are anti-gay, the Pope is just a lot more nuanced and intelligent than Mr. Phelps.

(That and the Catholic Church does a lot more good in the world, I'm willing to bet--then again they have their own unique faults.  I'm not inclined to judge the worth of an entire religious organization none the less, I don't think I'm qualified and I'm not sure who is.)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 10:21:11 AM by Jude »

Offline MasterMischief

They don't ignore the ugliness of Leviticus for the sake of convenience.

Really?  They are orthodox Jews?

Offline Lord DrakeTopic starter

According from the quoting of consortium11

Quote
There are over 1 billion Catholics in the world—that's one out of every six people alive today—and every single one of them will split Hell wide open when they die—period. And there is nothing they can do about it.

It would look like (to me at least) that it is at least Mr. Phelps the one who disagrees with the other Christian faiths

Also:

I'm not sure that there's much that the Catholic Church disagrees with them on for example.  Both are anti-gay, the Pope is just a lot more nuanced and intelligent than Mr. Phelps.

I fail to see the connection between being gay and being a comic fan.

Ok sorry for the smartass answer but again, I am not sure if this is on topic. Actually believing the "letter" of the scriptures (hence cherry-quoting left and right) is definitely a no-no amongst the historical theology branches.

That said, quoting the scriptures in order to get a generic "message" can be positive. The trick is how you use it.

I will be a bit evil here... one (not necessarily me) may even agree with the generic message that making of comics the center of one's life may not be very healthy for someone and putting them above everything else may not be a good thing.

From this to making a public rumpus and invoke righteous Smiting on people... well...

Offline Sabby

Well yes, Westboro Baptist is so bad that the KKK, the racist nutjobs, Disavow any association with them. O-o

I just find it funny how they're protesting Comic-Con.

Though...45 minutes? Why even bother? o3o

Hey, the KKK has some common courtesy. They have a charter and keep the activities in their own property. If there's guna be any cross burning and harsh words towards brown people, it's in their own time around their own bonfire.

They don't disavow the WBC because of a difference in their beliefs, they just appreciate manners a bit more then they do. You can be a white trash racist AND a good neighbour! =D

Offline Jude

They usually get in trouble for their anti-gay activities (which is why I said that), I don't know how the Pope stands on this particular issue, but I wouldn't be surprised if he frowns on this sort of entertainment, though I'll concede with you that there's no way he'd bring things to this extreme.

As far as the Orthodox Jew comment goes, this idea that somehow the old Testament isn't relevant to Christians is not in the bible, at all.  It's a convenient explanation fabricated out of nothing.  But hey, if I'm wrong, feel free to quote me the passage.

As far as the Historical Theologians being against literal interpretations...  Meet Dr. Paul L. Maeir, Ancient Historian and Second Vice President of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (an Evangelical, Fundamentalist Christian Religious Organization in Missouri).  And that was just pulled from my memory of watching the Penn & Teller:  Bullshit! bible episode where he arguments for biblical literalism.

Offline MasterMischief

Quote from: Jude
As far as the Orthodox Jew comment goes, this idea that somehow the old Testament isn't relevant to Christians is not in the bible, at all.  It's a convenient explanation fabricated out of nothing.  But hey, if I'm wrong, feel free to quote me the passage.

I am not sure I follow your point.  Taken out of context, I would agree that the Old Testament is relevant to Christians.

However, you said they don't ignore the ugliness of Leviticus for the sake of convenience.  The problem is, they do ignore a lot of Leviticus for the sake of convenience and just lift up the part that supports their own ugliness.

Offline Jude

I am not sure I follow your point.  Taken out of context, I would agree that the Old Testament is relevant to Christians.

However, you said they don't ignore the ugliness of Leviticus for the sake of convenience.  The problem is, they do ignore a lot of Leviticus for the sake of convenience and just lift up the part that supports their own ugliness.
Ah, you're right, it'd be more accurate to say that they ignore less of Leviticus than other Christians do.  I certainly don't see them stoning their sons for being disobedient.

Offline Aiden

I totally didn't read the last 3 pages.

I would set up shop next to them and put on a false church to the superheros to piss them off.

"Let us open the book of Stan...and on this day celebrate the word of the apostle Wolverine, for he once said.(insert quote)..Hail Lee!"

Offline Oniya

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Because we all know Stan is 'The Man'.  But shouldn't the response be 'Excelsior!'?

Offline Brandon

The problem is that you can cherry pick quotes from the bible to justify pretty much any viewpoint. Guess who tend to pick the more extreme ones?

I would say the answer is atheists. Often (but not always) to point how corrupt, evil, and destructive religion is as they point out the past. Often using it as a predlude to point out that it will happen again in the future

Even the more zealous catholic and christian friends at best rarely quote from the bible. It just doesnt work for debates because you get a lot of arguments going about religious script and close the minds of those you're debating. However a key debate tactic from atheists when religion or religious influenced stuff is involved is to deny logic and force the use of religious texts/scripts/rituals. Its something I find quite infuriating and a bit demeaning since its obvious that we dont follow the bible to the letter but instead let it influence our lives

Thats another coversation but I felt an alternative view point was needed after that comment


Offline Empyrean

If they're going to crash Comic-con then the G4 cameras might catch them. I'd pay good money to see how the hosts respond to this. :)

Offline Wolfy

Stan Lee can be my god any time.

More creative and kind than the current idea of God in every sense of the word. o3o

He's like the Grandfather everyone wishes they had! o3o