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Author Topic: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"  (Read 2717 times)

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Offline WolfyTopic starter

Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« on: June 20, 2010, 02:05:25 AM »
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/101440-U-S-Government-Proposes-Internet-Kill-Switch

....This has got to be the stupidest idea I have ever heard in my life. >_> Yes, Shut down the LARGEST INFORMATION SOURCE EVER.

That's a damn fine plan when Information during war times is VITAL.

I'm all for protecting the country, but honestly, shutting down the internet isn't the way to do it. >_>
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 02:29:31 AM by Vekseid »

Offline Vekseid

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2010, 02:30:49 AM »
Fixed the title. Seriously, it's started by one narcissistic nutjob in the Senate, he owns it.

Offline Revolverman

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2010, 03:19:33 AM »
Because the entire internet goes though one place that can be cut, amiright?

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2010, 04:09:39 AM »
Because the entire internet goes though one place that can be cut, amiright?

Well, their talking about somehow creating a switch that can Sever America from the rest of the World through the internet...Which would mean a switch that essentially shuts down all Internet Service providers in America at once.


Ya know what I say? Instead of putting forth a bull-shit idea like this, they should do something productive. Somehow Get 4chan/Anonymous to Protect America...have you see how organized those people are when they have a goal? It's almost scary. O-o

Offline Brandon

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2010, 04:12:50 AM »
*Ponders* does he not know that all military information classified as classified and above is required to either be in written format, locked away in a vault or on a computer that lacks a connection to the internet?

I do not see this bill as anything except an attempt to regulate what kind of information normal US citizens can see. Which makes propaganda more easily implimented in our society.

Offline GeekFury

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2010, 04:44:53 AM »
This would just cut the internet to the US right? If not what gives the US the right to cut the internet for the entire world? Time of crisis or not.

I know the new joke around the world is America now owns the world, but I did'nt relise it was true.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2010, 05:10:38 AM »
It was actually possible up until a decade or so ago. Now a majority of infrastructure is located outside of the US... though it would still be incredibly disruptive.

Offline Revolverman

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2010, 08:04:19 AM »
It was actually possible up until a decade or so ago. Now a majority of infrastructure is located outside of the US... though it would still be incredibly disruptive.

That's just it. The rest of the world will just build around the cut off US systems and resources. In the end it will only hurt the US. Economically, technologically, politically, and culturally. Never mind the millions that will still drill holes in whatever the Governments thinks it can do to control a decentralized communications network. Its like saying your going to turn off rain.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2010, 09:24:27 AM »
There may be a few reasons to consider doing this like a massive cyber attack on our civilian network by a hostile foreign nation or something like to minimize any major damage and allow us to recover faster, the switch would need to be hub based to keep an enemy from using this trick on us though.

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2010, 11:48:21 AM »
There may be a few reasons to consider doing this like a massive cyber attack on our civilian network by a hostile foreign nation or something like to minimize any major damage and allow us to recover faster, the switch would need to be hub based to keep an enemy from using this trick on us though.

As I said, get the guys from 4chan/Anonymous onto the government pay roll.

Best. Security. Ever. o3o

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2010, 12:38:50 PM »
Thing is.. you take a BIG chunk of the internet offline like that it will cripple and ruin all sorts of economic interests.  Infowar/Cyberattacks aside, consider how much buisness is interlaced on the international level.

FYI.. not everything secure is offline and unlinked, I've used the military's secure internet connections from time to time.

Offline GeekFury

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2010, 01:47:55 PM »
As I said, get the guys from 4chan/Anonymous onto the government pay roll.

Best. Security. Ever. o3o

Only problem is if the /b/'s get in, there will be many lulz, trolls and CP on the internet then.

Offline Asuras

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2010, 03:36:41 PM »
Yeah...it looks like this is just supposed to be used in the event of a "massive cyber-attack" of some kind. On 9/11 for instance the US grounded all civilian aircraft in US airspace, so this seems kind of analogous.

And the language in the bill is not "kill switch," it says that ISPs would have to comply with "emergency measures or actions," which presumably could be something more useful like filtering out traffic from certain countries, protocols, IP ranges, whatever.

Offline grovercjuk

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2010, 04:42:23 PM »
Is it just me or is there a trend developing? You see more and more stories about how WE the authorities need to control the Internet. Various reasons are put forward, terrorism, child pornography, cyber attacks etc.

         But always it comes down to WE need to have control over the Internet. For the reasons given or is it more that WE object to their being a flow of information over which we have no control.

Offline Synecdoche17

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2010, 04:54:00 PM »
As I said, get the guys from 4chan/Anonymous onto the government pay roll.

Best. Security. Ever. o3o
I followed the news about Project Chanology for a while - apparently, they actually succeeded in getting the Church of Scientology to shut down a branch in this area, which is more than anyone else has ever done against those blackmailers.

I think this bill is being blown out of proportion - like Asuras says, it's not weird to make ISPs comply with emergency measures, especially in light of the Chinese testing cyber attacks against the U.S. gov't.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2010, 05:07:56 PM »
Yeah...it looks like this is just supposed to be used in the event of a "massive cyber-attack" of some kind. On 9/11 for instance the US grounded all civilian aircraft in US airspace, so this seems kind of analogous.

And the language in the bill is not "kill switch," it says that ISPs would have to comply with "emergency measures or actions," which presumably could be something more useful like filtering out traffic from certain countries, protocols, IP ranges, whatever.

We already have that in the form of de-peering.

It would be more valuable to have a more thorough discussion and implementation of security audits across the nation.

Offline Asuras

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2010, 11:24:44 PM »
Quote from: Vekseid
We already have that in the form of de-peering.

Does the government have emergency powers to enforce that on ISPs?

I also don't think that depeering includes selectively filtering traffic out on the basis of the protocol used, or a lot of other finer grained things based on the actual data that's passed around.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2010, 01:20:18 AM »
Does the government have emergency powers to enforce that on ISPs?

IP Networks, and yes. The government hasn't gotten involved for a long time, but if this wasn't possible the Internet wouldn't work.

Quote
I also don't think that depeering includes selectively filtering traffic out on the basis of the protocol used, or a lot of other finer grained things based on the actual data that's passed around.

Actually it looks like the bill doesn't quite say what the article says it does.  The article claims the government would be able to take over Elliquiy's servers, for example, while the bill itself says it can only enforce security standards. If they're well designed, I'm perfectly fine with that.

There are privacy, qualification and reasonableness concerns with what is termed 'critical information infrastructure', though.

Offline Asuras

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2010, 02:14:43 AM »
Quote from: Vekseid
IP Networks, and yes. The government hasn't gotten involved for a long time, but if this wasn't possible the Internet wouldn't work.

Can you cite the legislation? I understand that the government is already involved in this area, but the main point made by Lieberman & co. is that the government's powers aren't well-defined to issue emergency declarations.

Quote from: Vekseid
Actually it looks like the bill doesn't quite say what the article says it does.

I do think the sensationalism attached to it is exaggerated.

Quote from: Vekseid
The article claims the government would be able to take over Elliquiy's servers, for example, while the bill itself says it can only enforce security standards. If they're well designed, I'm perfectly fine with that.

Very good.

Quote from: Vekseid
There are privacy, qualification and reasonableness concerns with what is termed 'critical information infrastructure', though.

And yet, as this is a matter of emergency powers, I wonder whether or not meaningful definitions of privacy, qualification, and reasonableness can be enshrined in law in that context. The whole purpose of the legislation is to provide a contingency against an extreme, dangerous, extraordinary and unanticipated event after all.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2010, 03:26:09 AM »
Can you cite the legislation? I understand that the government is already involved in this area, but the main point made by Lieberman & co. is that the government's powers aren't well-defined to issue emergency declarations.

There isn't, cutting off another country requires soft power at this point. The primary use of cutting off an ISP is what we already use it for. Legislation won't help matters.

Quote
And yet, as this is a matter of emergency powers, I wonder whether or not meaningful definitions of privacy, qualification, and reasonableness can be enshrined in law in that context. The whole purpose of the legislation is to provide a contingency against an extreme, dangerous, extraordinary and unanticipated event after all.

Certainly at least qualification as critical infrastructure can, as well as privacy limitations. You can set hard limits on what gets defined as 'critical'. Elliquiy isn't, but imagine that Wikipedia or Facebook might be. That should likewise not necessarily permit the government access to any and all communications.

Reasonableness just needs stating. Any security implementation needs to have a defense in depth structure anyway.

Offline Asuras

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2010, 04:05:45 AM »
Quote from: Vekseid
There isn't, cutting off another country requires soft power at this point. The primary use of cutting off an ISP is what we already use it for. Legislation won't help matters.

Completely cutting off another country would require participation of foreign countries, but I think we can at least get domestic ISPs to perform a substantial amount of filtering by themselves - and in the event of a putative "massive cyber-attack" (I'm not thrilled about the concept but there it is) a substantial reduction in harmful traffic can be consequential. And legislation is helpful on that point because the government can coordinate exactly what kind of filtering needs to be performed.

Quote from: Vekseid
Certainly at least qualification as critical infrastructure can, as well as privacy limitations. You can set hard limits on what gets defined as 'critical'. Elliquiy isn't, but imagine that Wikipedia or Facebook might be. That should likewise not necessarily permit the government access to any and all communications.

This is speculative, but I don't think implausible:

Say that 1000 accounts on this server have been acquired or hacked by some group ( a particular foreign country, a cartel, mob, whatever). They are used to transmit messages not over e-mails but over your own private servers. Do you not suppose that it might be of a national interest (in this situation) that the otherwise private information on your server be examined?

Offline Vekseid

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2010, 03:06:32 PM »
Completely cutting off another country would require participation of foreign countries, but I think we can at least get domestic ISPs to perform a substantial amount of filtering by themselves - and in the event of a putative "massive cyber-attack" (I'm not thrilled about the concept but there it is) a substantial reduction in harmful traffic can be consequential. And legislation is helpful on that point because the government can coordinate exactly what kind of filtering needs to be performed.

I suspect Lieberman's goal is to put this under his jurisdiction, under the auspices of formalizing and streamlining what is already a technical reality, under the spurious belief that his reign as senator will last past 2012.

Quote
This is speculative, but I don't think implausible:

Say that 1000 accounts on this server have been acquired or hacked by some group ( a particular foreign country, a cartel, mob, whatever). They are used to transmit messages not over e-mails but over your own private servers. Do you not suppose that it might be of a national interest (in this situation) that the otherwise private information on your server be examined?

Elliquiy's pm system generates the better part of a million words per day, right now. Even ignoring this would be a landmine akin to wiretapping the private conversations of couples magnified immensely, if they can't trust me (or whomever I'm paying to run the server at that point if a thousand compromised accounts is escaping my notice) to apply appropriate filters, they've already lost.

- We already take quiet note of who accesses Elliquiy via proxy or tor for detecting ban evasion.
- I already take action to prevent stagnant accounts from getting compromised when their e-mail is hijacked.
- I certainly know better than they do what regular behavior looks like. Especially on a roleplaying forum.

So they are either capable of telling me what they are looking for, or do not have a genuinely legitimate claim.

Offline SuperHans

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2010, 02:03:25 AM »
Quote
"For all of its 'user-friendly' allure, the internet can also be a dangerous place with electronic pipelines that run directly into everything from our personal bank accounts to key infrastructure to government and industrial secrets," Lieberman said. "Our economic security, national security and public safety are now all at risk from new kinds of enemies - cyber-warriors, cyber-spies, cyber-terrorists and cyber-criminals."

Ah, the classic Orwellian pincer...have a free information source the government can't contol,  but can't touch it due to popular support? Do some fearmongering!

Offline WolfyTopic starter

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2010, 06:27:28 AM »
I do love how he uses the word "Cyber" alot...especially if you know it's other meaning...<_<>_>

Offline SuperHans

Re: Joe Lieberman Proposes "Internet Kill Switch"
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2010, 12:01:44 PM »
I do love how he uses the word "Cyber" alot...especially if you know it's other meaning...<_<>_>

Probably wants to use the kill switch to delete his internet history without being noticed...