Author Topic: The Problem of Ons & Offs (Read 3739 times)

Lovelynice · « **on:** May 27, 2006, 03:33:10 PM »

I personally see the Ons/Offs threads and Sigs idea as the best thing about this site. It does make it extremely convenient to find compatible players/writers in a short time, and helps to avoid offence. It's a sign of remarkable honesty and understanding that is exceedingly rare elsewhere.

On the other hand, Elvi has repeatedly pointed out that there are problems with having them.

Rather than messing up someone else's thread in a debate, I post this here in the hope that a solution can be found.

Quote from: Elvi on May 27, 2006, 02:33:08 PM

I have seen another player, trying to help by throwing suggestions at another player, only to be brushed asside because "she should have read their on's and off's before suggesting them".

Well, it's certainly appreciated to at least learn about another person before making suggestions out of the blue, isn't it?
He/she could've picked a nicer & more polite way to say it though.

Quote from: Elvi on May 27, 2006, 02:33:08 PM

Another being told that if they had an on's and off's thread that the other player 'may' take a look and 'may' see if they were suitable to their 'requirements'

People do this sort of thing in dating clubs all the time, and it certainly avoids one of the major hassles online of not being able to tell anything about the other person except username, age , and gender.

Quote from: Elvi on May 27, 2006, 02:33:08 PM

And yourself suggesting that roleplay would be easier if they displayed their wears.

Well, it's true isn't it? And you could've put that another way other than as if they were on shopping rack. Besides, don't you have your Ons/Offs in your own Sig and do the same thing?

Quote from: Elvi on May 27, 2006, 02:33:08 PM

I have seen one player say in his on's and off's thread that he felt pressurised into making one.

This is only real problem that I can see with Ons/Offs. It's going to happen anyway, but this is the tricky one. Instead of demonizing all the other things about Ons/Offs and how they are used in a way that sounds purely subjective, you should have a thread discussion dedicated to just this one problem and see if a solution can be worked out to avoid it, because otherwise Elvi, you will be spending years lecturing & preaching about the problem on threads that have nothing to do with it without ever solving it.

There probably is a very good solution out there besides just going around lecturing & reaching endlessly. Let's at least discuss it on a thread dedicated to finding that solution rather than having the problem rear it's head on every thread where some one mentions Ons/Offs and how convenient they are, and you going into lecture mode. Otherwise Elvi, you'll wear yourself out.

To everyone else, can we have some ideas about this, and how to solve it?

Elvi · « **Reply #1 on:** May 27, 2006, 03:59:10 PM »

As a point of fact Lovely nice, I was the one who pushed for having the on's and off's section in the first place.
However, I don't see it as being used for the reason it was set up for.

This is also the last thing I will say on this thread.
I refuse to have a conversation about something where I am immediately accused of lecturing & preaching and demonising.

Lovelynice · « **Reply #2 on:** May 27, 2006, 04:13:38 PM »

Quote from: Elvi on May 27, 2006, 03:59:10 PM

As a point of fact Lovely nice, I was the one who pushed for having the on's and off's section in the first place.
However, I don't see it as being used for the reason it was set up for.

This is also the last thing I will say on this thread.
I refuse to have a conversation about something where I am immediately accused of lecturing & preaching and demonising.

Fine, then maybe someone else will.

Has anyone else got something POSITIVE to say on this?

Quote from: Lovelynice on May 27, 2006, 03:33:10 PM

Quote
I have seen one player say in his on's and off's thread that he felt pressurised into making one.

This is only real problem that I can see with Ons/Offs. It's going to happen anyway, but this is the tricky one. Instead of demonizing all the other things about Ons/Offs and how they are used in a way that sounds purely subjective, you should have a thread discussion dedicated to just this one problem and see if a solution can be worked out to avoid it, because otherwise Elvi, you will be spending years lecturing & preaching about the problem on threads that have nothing to do with it without ever solving it.

There probably is a very good solution out there besides just going around lecturing & reaching endlessly. Let's at least discuss it on a thread dedicated to finding that solution rather than having the problem rear it's head on every thread where some one mentions Ons/Offs and how convenient they are, and you going into lecture mode. Otherwise Elvi, you'll wear yourself out.

To everyone else, can we have some ideas about this, and how to solve it?

Jefepato · « **Reply #3 on:** May 27, 2006, 04:59:28 PM »

To be honest, I don't see a problem with being pressured into making the ons/offs thread.

If for some reason you're unsure, you can put down what you do know, and fill in the blanks later once you have a better idea where your tastes lie. If someone won't play with you until you have your ons and offs down to the last detail, find someone more reasonable.

GothicFires · « **Reply #4 on:** May 27, 2006, 05:42:42 PM »

I don't think this thread is really needed because there is nothing wrong with the On and Off thread. It it is how people are using it. That you cannot control or fix. I think it is still a good idea. My decision to play a game with someone is based on their writing skills. but the On's/Off's to give a good idea on story subjects or what to avoid.

Ariabella · « **Reply #5 on:** May 27, 2006, 06:41:40 PM »

Which was the point of having the thread, so that like minded players could find writing partners. However, it's not a requirement for being a member, so if the other players could remember that instead of trying to push people into writing the post.

On the other hand, if you don't have an on/off thread, you can't really complain if something happens in a story you're in if you don't like what's been done.

Now, if the problem a lot of members have is not being sure their list is complete, please remember it's not written in stone. You can go add, delete, alter, whatever you need to do.

One thing I have noted in the ons/offs threads that don't belong there is one on one requests. It's only a place to list what you want to write or don't want to write.

Now, if for example, pirates is an on, list them as an on, but don't put in also "looking for a pirate game" and a plotline. That's what the GMs Wanted or Players Wanted threads are for.

Everything in it's place.

kylie · « **Reply #6 on:** May 28, 2006, 10:00:50 AM »

We're all digging for erotic gold in the Tower of Babel. No one really knows quite where it is, but everyone can make their own treasure map. Call those the On/Off lists. But there are different treasures and different languages for various people (oh no! *laugh*)... Not all people are going to use _any_ terms we dream up, either in or about the On/Offs List to mean the exact same things. Perhaps it sounds obvious, but it's like the whole site: people join or avoid each game and each topic for a wide range of possible reasons.

I wouldn't describe it as any question of who is a "good writer." (Is that code, like being a good American "patriot"? I wonder.) It's just a disagreement about process. Reasonable, imaginative people may have different projects in mind and different ideas about _so_ many variables: what should be obvious in an introductory list, what specific images or sensations some categories imply will be described, when and how to update or discuss component terms with a partner further.

Lists have their uses, but your mileage may vary. Adding some quotes because it's all so relative... In cases where we feel like fewer words and "tighter" genres (whatever genres those might be), we can try for "watertight" lists and work or beat out more "focused" themes that we assume are shared. Or, when we want more lengthy negotiation about things we "might" do or "actually meant in a different way" etc., we can do that. Same map, different ways to find the treasure. Either way is perfectly fine, if both people agree to treat the information that way. Nirvana and cotton candy all around.

On the other hand, it's possible to reach an impasse. If one person wants a quick answer on question X (or maybe, doesn't recognize it as important at all) and the other prefers a long discussion on the exact same question then no amount of disclaiming, moderating, or reformatting can solve it. We just have a simple disagreement. Either we can recognize that and do something else, or we can fuss about it at great length for the thrill of the fight. And to receive any prizes or tomatoes the audience cares to throw in.

The map is not the territory. The lists are not all that happens when people get together and start to share. I suspect people are talking past each other about which features of the map are "supposed" to lead them to treasure or not. They may be using the same words and meaning completely different things. What is a "limit", exactly? How much is "hard"? When is "often"? What is "writing" and what is "real"? I doubt a new language would help with these.

Basically, I'm with firegoddess back there... The On/Offs is just a tool, take it as far as it takes you in each situation. It doesn't fix your destiny, and you don't get to write the whole story of other people's treasure hunts.

ZK · « **Reply #7 on:** May 28, 2006, 10:06:23 AM »

Yes, as for someone who doesn't have it [and a goddess too]. It is only a tool, you can choose to use it or not to.

Jefepato · « **Reply #8 on:** May 28, 2006, 11:44:02 AM »

Quote from: Cindy1 on May 27, 2006, 06:41:40 PM

On the other hand, if you don't have an on/off thread, you can't really complain if something happens in a story you're in if you don't like what's been done.

Well, you shouldn't get angry or upset if your partner(s) had no way of knowing you didn't like whatever it was, but you can and should complain.

ZK · « **Reply #9 on:** May 28, 2006, 11:53:27 AM »

Usually when that is the case, you go about your likes and dislikes in private, I know some members prefer to have such things in secrecy, it's why they don't publicly post them.

Elvi · « **Reply #10 on:** May 28, 2006, 12:04:47 PM »

My greatest concern is that the on's and off's are being used as a 'bible' and the art of discussion before entering into a role play is being passed over.

ZK · « **Reply #11 on:** May 28, 2006, 12:07:55 PM »

Which is definately wrong. Just because someone doesn't have it doesn't mean they're bad people. The "bible" thing you're refering to is a stem off of elitism. Elitism is a bad, BAD road to go down on.

Elvi · « **Reply #12 on:** May 28, 2006, 12:18:30 PM »

Yes I agree.
Before we had this on's and off's when a one or one was set up, the peramiters and limits of the game was discussed with the two players.
In a group game it was discussed with the GM and the other players involved.

I often saw GM notes or after discussion on a players thread people agreeing that there would be no on screen rape (for instance) within the game.

Now?
I see players almost demanding that others have the 'magic' thread.
And though I haven't yet had any signs of it happening, I can see players saying "Well you didn't mention it as an off so.........", when a problem arrises.

King_Furby · « **Reply #13 on:** May 28, 2006, 01:40:24 PM »

We are all adults here so people should be able to solve their own problems in a respective manner.

Even if someone did say "well you didn't mention it as an off" would it really be that big of a deal? In my RPing experience if someone does something the other person does not like they tell them and then change the post to something else.

Yes demanding anything of another player is rude but i have not really seen many people doing that. Right now i don't really think its a problem..but there is always the chance that it could be.

Elvi · « **Reply #14 on:** May 28, 2006, 01:58:54 PM »

Unfortunately Furby, we all do not behave as adults.

Unfortunately it is the job of the Goddesses to forsee these problems and try to prevent them from happening.

Hence my concerns.

Brandon · « **Reply #15 on:** May 31, 2006, 06:06:44 AM »

The thing about ons and offs is that it is a two way street when you use them. To take the above example, if it comes down to "Well you didnt mention it in your offs" the player simply has to reply "well Im feeling uncomfortable with it and I want to stop, change something, fade to black, etc." As roleplayers we have several obligations to our RP partners. One of those being not to put them in uncomfortable positions and if uncomfortable positions arise to be respectful and try to steer the sceene away from whatever the uncomfortable element is. Under no circumstances should a person continue to make their partner uncomfortable or say something like "If you dont like it go to another board" as I have been told in the past. On the flip side if your put into an uncomfortable element you shouldnt be shy about it. Tell your roleplay partner immediatly and work it out with them. I can remember a 1 on 1 between me and Elvi where I did wait to see what happened with an element that I was growing uncomfortable with, and soon after our game died.

If you know a person isnt ok with something and you try it anyway your asking for trouble but if you dont know if somethings ok or not you should ask the person. Someone telling me that "Well you didnt mention it in your offs" isnt good enough for me because I expect that anytime someone wants to try something unusual that they ask me if its alright. Some people will agree and others will disagree with that but the point is that is how I feel the system should work

However, Im getting off topic so let me steer this back toward ons and offs. The biggest pro of ons and offs is it is usually pretty easy to find a RP partner that has a similar sexual appatitte as you. You can see what they are into and what they definatly arent into helping you gauge whether that person is the RP partner for you. The biggest con is that people no longer want to do the work required to find great RP partners through talking, experiementation, and interaction because theres nothing there that reflects how great or poor a writer is.

Personally I dont think I will ever place an on and off thread up because people who dont want to do a little work and research into my play style and personality often end up disappointing me to no end when the game begins (this is the norm, but not the rule). This is one reason why Ive listed one of my limits as "no bad writers". On the flip side, when Im looking for a new RP partner I do a great deal of research and find that ons and offs to be a valuable tool but I have to do further research to truely find someone to compliment my style of play and writing. Thankfully Ive found many here on Elliquiy that do just that like Cindy1, Bishrook, Nikitafirestar, Mika, and Gamerjunky to name a few though the list goes on and on and on...these talented writers are people I just love to piecies and I never would have found them if I only used Elliquiy's on and off threads.

Anyway, thats just my 2 cents...

Elvi · « **Reply #16 on:** May 31, 2006, 06:16:36 AM »

Yes, that was a lesson learned Brandon.
Had you said and I known, the outcome would have been different. It was an excellent roleplay gone bad through poor communication.

It is also worth pointing out that it wasn't anything that would have been listed as an on or an off, it was a character 'quirk'.
Which is the whole point that I have been making.
You could have easily looked at my on's and off's and said yeah that's who I want to play with and it would have still gone wrong.
There is nothing on this site at all, that will replace communication.

Jefepato · « **Reply #17 on:** May 31, 2006, 05:56:36 PM »

Quote from: Brandon on May 31, 2006, 06:06:44 AM

If you know a person isnt ok with something and you try it anyway your asking for trouble but if you dont know if somethings ok or not you should ask the person. Someone telling me that "Well you didnt mention it in your offs" isnt good enough for me because I expect that anytime someone wants to try something unusual that they ask me if its alright. Some people will agree and others will disagree with that but the point is that is how I feel the system should work

The trouble with that is, nobody will ever agree on what's "unusual."

On one hand, any given game is going to grind to a halt if you have to ask about everything you're ever going to do. On the other hand, there's probably nothing sexual that somebody doesn't think is unusual.

Nothing · « **Reply #18 on:** May 31, 2006, 06:04:54 PM »

Personally, I love the ons and offs...they make finding RP partners and peoples likes/dislikes very easy, fast and convenient.
However, we shouldn't base everything off of those little lists. You can't tell how someone is going to RP by reading a list of what they like and don't like...We should communicate, find out what the other person wants and doesn't want, before starting the game...

I got yelled at (Elvi

) for asking for someone's ons/offs...and I don't really blame her for yelling at me, cause it was done in a rather rude way...I should have asked for their preferences, maybe for a feel of how they wanted to play the game or what they liked, didn't like, instead of just asking for ons/offs...

So basically, Ons/offs make things easier...but we shouldn't rely completely on them....

Elvi · « **Reply #19 on:** May 31, 2006, 07:06:44 PM »

Awwwwww.......come on Fred!
I didn't 'yell' at you!
I haven't yelled at anyone on here ........yet........*evil grins*

Quote from: Jefepato on May 31, 2006, 05:56:36 PM

The trouble with that is, nobody will ever agree on what's "unusual."

On one hand, any given game is going to grind to a halt if you have to ask about everything you're ever going to do. On the other hand, there's probably nothing sexual that somebody doesn't think is unusual.

That isn't the issue here, the issue is that the on's and off's section is not written in stone and should not be taken as gospel.
People should not feel pressurised into placing their on's and off's there because other palyers demand it and it should not be used as a replacement for other forms of communication.

Nothing · « **Reply #20 on:** May 31, 2006, 07:11:43 PM »

ok, ok, so you didn't "yell" at me, I just got in trouble for it...

The ons/offs are being taken to literal...you know, you go and look at a players ons/offs, and thats it...thats all you get from them, you base your entire opinion on that short little list....and there's a lot more to roleplaying than ons and offs....
we do need to communicate more about what we want and don't want in our games...but, I don't think the ons and offs should be done away with, either....but they shouldn't be seen as a bible....
So, I don't know...i have no idea how to solve this, so i'm just gonna shut up :)

Elvi · « **Reply #21 on:** May 31, 2006, 07:17:03 PM »

*laughs*

No..don't shut up Nothing, it's nice to see that at least some players have got the idea of it.....*smiles*

And stop telling yourself to shut up, you always have valid points to make, whether I or others, agree with them or not is irrelavent.

Nothing · « **Reply #22 on:** May 31, 2006, 07:17:51 PM »

Wow, you actually called me Nothing...I think thats the first time

Maybe now I can ditch this whole "Fred" business :)

Elvi · « **Reply #23 on:** May 31, 2006, 07:26:40 PM »

Oh damn!.....sorry Fred.....not feeling too good tonight......*laughs*

Nothing · « **Reply #24 on:** May 31, 2006, 07:27:13 PM »

Awww, why aren't you feeling good?