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Author Topic: Taxes: Cost of Liberty  (Read 7706 times)

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Offline Natalie C. BarneyTopic starter

Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« on: April 17, 2006, 06:48:43 PM »
I have been thinking alot about taxes and am appalled citizens want tax cuts when taxes are the cost of liberty. Look at it this way taxes pay for the legal system required to maintain property rights from maintaining estate records to enforcing the law enforcement against attacks on property. Taxes pay for fair and just regualation of trades, standards of building and other regulated goods that maintain health and safety. Taxes pay for the military the basis of our protection from an external invader. And taxes pay for social services we tend to now expect of our governement. In my view the government should decide how much it actually needs to operate and expect the citizens and businesses to pay the entire cost each year this includes aspects like paying off government debts and the like.

Just this of governments that are the least funded by the people they also have the least rights. Saudi Arabia they don't pay taxes and the people have no right to petition the government. Other despotic governments are just poor with a certain small percentge controling most of the wealth very unevenly. In fact those they don't pay taxes fairly have no right to then complain that the government is not doing enough.

And my view applies to local and state levels not just the Federal level.


Offline Jefepato

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2006, 06:59:55 PM »
Presumably, some people are concerned that the government is not making effective use of their money.

I love America and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, but there are literally trillions of dollars that the government refuses to account for, which is problematic when you consider that the Department of Defense paid $640 for a toilet seat.

The government is supposed to be accountable to the people, after all.  If they aren't going to spend the money effectively they ought to give it back.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2006, 07:01:11 PM by Jefepato »

Offline Ariabella

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2006, 07:21:35 PM »
Plus instead of letting special interest groups and lobbyists control the lawmakers, here's a novel concept. Listen to the people they represent. After all, it's what the Constituition was founded on...no taxation without representation. I have no objection to reasonable taxes, but make me feel represented.

And use the government funds to care for the people of your own country as well. Let us have a say on expenditures.

Offline Natalie C. BarneyTopic starter

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2006, 08:47:10 PM »
You do have a say you can vote and join lobbying interests. Its not my fault people in this country won't vote out idiots in office if one year half the ncumbant people up for election lost most of their seats maybe the two political parties would get in their heads they are not safe.

Here is how taxes are supposed to have been collected. The Federal government decides we need ,lets say for fun $1 trillion. Ok they decide by population the state of California owes their share at $100 billion the state gets the money from their people and sends it. Taxation is supposed to be at the local level the Federal Government was to deal with the states for their taxes. Originally the Federal Government could not tax private citizens and businesses State could except in Washington D.C. and territories.

But in a Republic system we vote for representatives in government and they make the decisions so our best weapon is supposed to be the vote.


Offline GothicFires

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2006, 09:08:41 PM »
The problem is that not everyone who runs shares all the opinions of the person they are trying to represent. Personally my vote for the last presidential race would have been NONE OF THE ABOVE if it could have been. You may have the choice of ‘lesser evils’ but you are never going to find someone who truly has the same beliefs and values as you. Trust me I have never heard a politician touting ‘Pagan Values’.

I love America. Proud to have been born and live here. But there is no way of voting people in or out of office that is not trying to change America into what is important to them rather than the millions they are there to represent.

Offline Ariabella

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2006, 09:15:50 PM »
Added to the fact that they may say a lot of things one agrees with, but once in office, the lobbyists and special interests all get their claws in and control them.

Offline Jefepato

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2006, 09:20:26 PM »
This is a certainty:

Nobody should be allowed into a position of political power that shows the slightest inclination of wanting it.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2006, 10:53:35 PM »
I have been thinking alot about taxes and am appalled citizens want tax cuts when taxes are the cost of liberty. Look at it this way taxes pay for the legal system required to maintain property rights from maintaining estate records to enforcing the law enforcement against attacks on property. Taxes pay for fair and just regualation of trades, standards of building and other regulated goods that maintain health and safety. Taxes pay for the military the basis of our protection from an external invader. And taxes pay for social services we tend to now expect of our governement. In my view the government should decide how much it actually needs to operate and expect the citizens and businesses to pay the entire cost each year this includes aspects like paying off government debts and the like.

It wasn't always this way, and, did we really need to give eight billion dollars to oil companies last year?

Offline Zakharra

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2006, 11:04:59 PM »
 
Quote
In my view the government should decide how much it actually needs to operate and expect the citizens and businesses to pay the entire cost each year this includes aspects like paying off government debts and the like.

 That is a scary thought. The government taxes people too much already, if we let it take what it thought it needed, the taxes would be very high. That is taxation with no representation since there is no control over who says what level of taxes can be levied. You can bet they would rarely if ever go down. Government can always find a way to spend  money and need more of it.

Offline Ariabella

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2006, 11:08:47 PM »
And let's not forget that the debt would be much lower, if not eliminated, if they didn't pay $10,000 for a hammer or the aforementioned $640 for a toilet seat.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2006, 11:15:57 PM »
And let's not forget that the debt would be much lower, if not eliminated, if they didn't pay $10,000 for a hammer or the aforementioned $640 for a toilet seat.

Those are a bit misleading.  Those costs come from a general parts rollup, which was $500 for a hammer IIRC...  and $500 for an atramodern radar that cost some $50,000 to make.

Most government waste comes from little pet congressional porkbarrel projects - a bridge to nowhere in Alaska, for example.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2006, 11:33:00 PM »
 The debt is simple enough to get rid of. Stop spending so bloody much. Keep taxes low and let the economy grow, which increases revenues and grow out of the debt. Congressional pork is a big part of governmental waste and corruption in the ways the money is handed out. Contractors padding the bills and such.

Offline Natalie C. BarneyTopic starter

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2006, 11:40:52 PM »

 That is a scary thought. The government taxes people too much already, if we let it take what it thought it needed, the taxes would be very high. That is taxation with no representation since there is no control over who says what level of taxes can be levied. You can bet they would rarely if ever go down. Government can always find a way to spend  money and need more of it.

But the operation of government is expensive as I pointed out. Take the new Raptor fighter its over $200 million a pop but is the most advanced fighter in the world and vital to give our nation a tactical superiority if needed. Add to that the justice and penal system the 8th amendment requires a certain treatment of inmates that is hardly cheap. A court system to maintain legal records including estate law. Regulation of medicine and other trades again not inexpensive. Road construction is very expensive. Social welfare and medical programs for the elderly and needy are pricey. Must I go on?

And you do have representation you elect people to legislature and in local elections you have a much stronger voice and they are to act in your interests. Is it a erfect system- no. But in Spain we had a fine example the governenment would not get out of Iraq so the people voted in heavily a party that would get their soldiers out. As far as I'm concerned citizens have foru moral obligations to government- 1. Be informed of the political and social issues (civics). 2. Get involved in the process including voting for people they think will do the best job regardless of party. (ooc: You know you can vote for parties other than the big two the Libertarians, Green Party and others.) 3. Pay taxes. 4. Be a productive citizen.

As for our government it may be a rather chaotic instrument but if you actually look at what they do by and large it works more often than doesn't. Case in point no one has successfully made a war on our soil in almost 200 years due to our strong military. Case in point most people are not starving to death. Case in point we have generally a stable society in most regions. Case in point aid to disaster victims is still generally better than even 30 years ago. Case in point childhood vaccines have saved many thousands of children.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2006, 11:55:31 PM »
 They do do some good things. Mostly, but over all I simply do not trust the government to spend money wisely. Nor do I think it should be able to say what taxes it thinks it needs. Because once it sets that standard, you have to pay the tax. Or you are breaking the law. You don't get a say in not paying it.

 With the current system of lobbiests and influence peddling, that power is not one I'm willing to see the gorvernment have. Would you be willign to let the government say it needs half of your taxes to operate? What about 60%? Or 70%? How would you say no? you couldn't and be heard.

Offline Natalie C. BarneyTopic starter

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2006, 09:41:58 AM »
My point is that the fact there are so many interests it naturally gravitates to the center more or less. Now I'm a Republican in the true conservative way I feel taxes fund government. My question is what services would give up the Federal Government does you would do without? A weak military. Or maybe no social welfare money for the needy. Or maybe half the road project spending? Or no mony at all for needy students?

Where do you draw the line?

And no government spends money wisely in a law based Republic. Rome had corruption. Most other democratic republics have corruption to some degree. Face it its worst in totalitarian regimes by far look at the old Soviet Union. We are the largest free Republic in the world and that makes the problem more for us. But it seems to me when your Senators bring in money for local projects people generally don't complain its when it goes somewhere else its a problem. Some seem stupid. For example in my State we put billions into highways where I backed a high speed rail- I lost that's the democratic process. It was a ballot item so all voters could make their choice on this issue.

My final point is still people have the vote if they refuse to vote the people out that are not using their power to the will of their citizens its not anybody elses fault but the people. The vote is the first weapon of the citizen and one that is supposed to be used wisely if the two parties don't suit you people can back other ones we have others join and support one of those. Its not a wasted vote you make your voice heard according to your political beliefs the one right you have under the Constitution none can take away.


Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2006, 09:51:23 AM »
I like the idea behind taxation, but i'd have to be blind not to see how goverments, for example the USA one but not only, are spending the money on things they should not.
If only politicians would be at least moderately honest with 're-distributing the wealth' and such, i'm sure there would me much more support for taxation amongst the voters.
And yeah, vote. If you can't vote for somebody that deserves it, at least vote against the guy you agree with less.

Offline Ariabella

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2006, 10:28:32 AM »
The problem is a. you need to draw a line on the maximum percentage they can take. I wouldn't want them to have the control to take so much that you wouldn't be left with enough to live on, especially if you work a low paying job.

b. I have nothing against the social programs except they don't truly target those in need.  Our welfare system, at least here in Maryland,  supports women who do not want to work, and do nothing but pop out baby afer baby. Yet if you work and have a low paying job, especially those just over the supposed poverty level, but they can't afford housing because the government doesn't place any rent control to keep housing affordable. Utilitiy companies are allowed to jack up your bill 50% to 72% in one jump (and this is true, just happened here. Our bill went from $263 month which was already high to $378.

c. Disability is nearly impossible to get unless you can afford a lawyer or if you're a drug addict. The drug addicts can receive it with no problem.

d. Do we really need a space program?

e. What about social programs for the people in the country who need assistance but make more than the poverty level yet can't afford proper housing because rent is $1000+ for an economy with no rooms? And $1000 may be all they clear per month because minimum wage is a joke and Social Services say "Well you earn too much" Excuse me?

f. Wasteless studies that mean nothing to the general population. We've all seen the headlines "Studies prove... and it's something stupid. Most of those are government funded.

g. wasteful spending...but stuff at Walmart instead of contractors that charge ridiculous prices (yes, I'm going back to the hammer, even $500 is too much.

Offline Natalie C. BarneyTopic starter

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2006, 10:56:11 AM »
The problem is a. you need to draw a line on the maximum percentage they can take. I wouldn't want them to have the control to take so much that you wouldn't be left with enough to live on, especially if you work a low paying job.

b. I have nothing against the social programs except they don't truly target those in need.  Our welfare system, at least here in Maryland,  supports women who do not want to work, and do nothing but pop out baby afer baby. Yet if you work and have a low paying job, especially those just over the supposed poverty level, but they can't afford housing because the government doesn't place any rent control to keep housing affordable. Utilitiy companies are allowed to jack up your bill 50% to 72% in one jump (and this is true, just happened here. Our bill went from $263 month which was already high to $378.

c. Disability is nearly impossible to get unless you can afford a lawyer or if you're a drug addict. The drug addicts can receive it with no problem.

d. Do we really need a space program?

e. What about social programs for the people in the country who need assistance but make more than the poverty level yet can't afford proper housing because rent is $1000+ for an economy with no rooms? And $1000 may be all they clear per month because minimum wage is a joke and Social Services say "Well you earn too much" Excuse me?

f. Wasteless studies that mean nothing to the general population. We've all seen the headlines "Studies prove... and it's something stupid. Most of those are government funded.

g. wasteful spending...but stuff at Walmart instead of contractors that charge ridiculous prices (yes, I'm going back to the hammer, even $500 is too much.

I'm a conservative at least in the true sense as in practical and caring governing but an expectation that people can do much for themselves. But that does not mean saying NO to outrageous increases in rent and other essentials either. Take Social Security Disability they do give it out too easily to people that can work. I know a blind person should get it but someone with "depression"- please there has to be a reigning in of abuse here. I happen to think the Space Program should be internationally funded and a UN program where we pay a fiar percentage of the costs along with China and Russia and the EU and others. But it does advance science and technology plus I feel is a area we must explore but the space probes we send out are more cost effective than manned space flight. And buying from Walmart there we have a big agreement I can get spending alot for an advanced fighter with all the extra costs involved and the new Joint Services fighter is at least a flexible one we are also selling to England and other friendly nations. But for hammers why not.

One think I'm pushing locally is to contract with Walmart for Hurricane relief they have a huge distrubution network and can supply essentials fast to the local people, so why not spend the emergency funds with them to supply fast food and water? Tents. Generators. Medicines. Seems more practical that what they did in the Northern Gulf Coast after Katrina.

Offline Ariabella

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2006, 11:09:36 AM »
. I know a blind person should get it but someone with "depression"- please there has to be a reigning in of abuse here.

I agree on the depression, but I have known several people with serious physical problems (heart problems, things like that) that have had to fight for months on end to get it. Cancer, heart problems, bone problems, if it's physical  then they should get it with no problem. After all, it comes from social security which they paid into.

As for Hurricane Katrina, there were a lot of things that could have been and should have been done differently. I hope Wal-Mart comes through, they're one of the most likely to do it and let's face it, even a lot of the grocery stores and all did things a lot quicker and smoother during that.

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2006, 11:30:03 AM »
Huh, i have a disability for depression. I had to end my education on elementary schoold because of that depression and now would probably have a rather depressing choice of jobs with no high school papers. Not that the welfare money would allow me to survive alone anyway, as with no job history the sum assigned is very low. Believe me, a real depression is a serious problem, even though it's a thing many people can try faking.

Offline Elvi

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2006, 11:44:29 AM »
Yes me also Celestial, it is a very big part of my illness, (chronic fatigue syndrome), which actually causes the worse disabling influences far more than the constant pain I suffer.

I am sorry, but anyone who believes that "Depression" is nothing and people should pull themselves together and just get on with it, have never ever experienced the total and utter feelings of uselessness and dessolation that all those with depression get so often, mostly caused by people thinking 'there is nothing wrong' with them.
 

Offline Ariabella

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2006, 12:11:42 PM »
Speaking only for myself, I was speaking of the people who claim depression and actually slip their doctor something to state they can't work so they can claim disability. There are a lot of dishonest doctors in the US who are willing to do those sorts of things.

By no means did I mean that all depression should be eliminated from getting disability as I do know how my own body feels when I'm depressed, so if it is severe I am certain it can make it impossible to work.

What SSI (our disability plan in America) needs to do is actually screen better and not exclude those with the severe ailments. There are plenty of people here on it who's disability is alcoholism and drug addictions. While I realize these are diseases, the people I speak of are not even willing to attempt treatment for it.

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2006, 12:20:04 PM »
I know what you mean, depression disability has a bad name because it's the best choice to fake. And doctors are dishonest here too, actually they're only little better than politicans themselves. And i've read about a whole informal 'price index' for people who want whatever false diagnosis given.
And psychologists are not the most corrupt of the specialities either.

Offline Natalie C. BarneyTopic starter

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2006, 12:53:17 PM »
I'm not heartless I have bi-polar disorder, cerebral palsy and a good work record I could easily get SSI but I prefer to work and take care of myself. But I understand some people have uncorrectable mental conditions and I'm not talking about them. The only public benefit I take is reduced fare for mass transit to get around a fair benefit for me to ask and I take care of myself otherwise. I just think a good number of people abuse the system and more accountability is called for.

Another are i have a huge problem with is the VA system. They give drug benefits to people who were no in the active service career wise or during conflict, my father was a cold war veteran draftee and was shocked he could get benefits. He was never near a war or conflict and left after his four years. Why should he get them over legitimate wounded veterans or career soldiers that were injured in active service? Seems so wrong.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2006, 08:58:43 PM »
 I'm for social programs that go to those truely in need. Not the sponges that live off of it. It needs to be tightened up alot more.

 The space program is good, but that could be better run too. Alot of what the government does is needed and good, but alot isn't. how money is alllotted and parceled out for pork projects and special friends.

 
Quote
My final point is still people have the vote if they refuse to vote the people out that are not using their power to the will of their citizens its not anybody elses fault but the people. The vote is the first weapon of the citizen and one that is supposed to be used wisely if the two parties don't suit you people can back other ones we have others join and support one of those. Its not a wasted vote you make your voice heard according to your political beliefs the one right you have under the Constitution none can take away.

 Until they take that away.