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Author Topic: Taxes: Cost of Liberty  (Read 7698 times)

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Offline Lilian

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2006, 12:15:55 PM »
The problem is a. you need to draw a line on the maximum percentage they can take. I wouldn't want them to have the control to take so much that you wouldn't be left with enough to live on, especially if you work a low paying job.

b. I have nothing against the social programs except they don't truly target those in need.  Our welfare system, at least here in Maryland,  supports women who do not want to work, and do nothing but pop out baby afer baby. Yet if you work and have a low paying job, especially those just over the supposed poverty level, but they can't afford housing because the government doesn't place any rent control to keep housing affordable. Utilitiy companies are allowed to jack up your bill 50% to 72% in one jump (and this is true, just happened here. Our bill went from $263 month which was already high to $378.

c. Disability is nearly impossible to get unless you can afford a lawyer or if you're a drug addict. The drug addicts can receive it with no problem.

d. Do we really need a space program?

e. What about social programs for the people in the country who need assistance but make more than the poverty level yet can't afford proper housing because rent is $1000+ for an economy with no rooms? And $1000 may be all they clear per month because minimum wage is a joke and Social Services say "Well you earn too much" Excuse me?

f. Wasteless studies that mean nothing to the general population. We've all seen the headlines "Studies prove... and it's something stupid. Most of those are government funded.

g. wasteful spending...but stuff at Walmart instead of contractors that charge ridiculous prices (yes, I'm going back to the hammer, even $500 is too much.


a.  I agree and disagree. Taxes aren't a large issue, I believe it wouldn't be that bad if we were being paid an appropriate wage. Right now, a lot of jobs are suffering because certain people are coming into the country and working for much lower than we are. But the companies are encouraging that, so it's not the people's fault.  Taxes to the government is only a good thing.. when they're used right.  But between people not wanting to pay them, people fudging taxes, tax breaks for the rich and other such things, it's only us that's really paying for it..

b. A lot of social programs are bunk. American selfishness has seriously hurt them and the lack of government testicular fortitude and unbiased education has made a very good idea into a very bad implementation.

c.  Not really. My dad's on disability, my mom's on disability.. it just depends on what's wrong.

d.  We need a space program that fucking DOES SOMETHING!!! 

e.  The federal run social services and the state legislated housing laws tend to miss a point when it comes to people's lives. The federal institutions enforce the rules. Unfortunately, the rules do not cater much to people anymore. Because some states are too large or people turn a blind eye to profit-mongering at the expense of others, the people suffer.  Selfishness has really rotted things here.

f. School's a bunch of bullshit sometimes, but it's the kids who dont want to learn. They make us learn the wrong things at the wrong times sometimes, I feel, and really.. what schools do is breed the next class of citizen. They need to remember that. They need to encourage intelligence, good being, they need to make people realize that racism is utter bullshit and the only reason this country exists is because people from EVERY country decided to go, "You know what? Our two countries may have been at war for the last million years, but we're not there anymore. We're here. And now you're my neighbor, and not my enemy." People lose sight of what this country was FOUNDED on.  America is lacking community spirit.

g. I consider two hundred million dollars on some fucking jet WHEN WE'RE NOT EVEN IN A REAL WAR, excessive spending. If China invades, it's all over. Nobody else could do it. Nobody else comes close. Why the HELL Are we spending like we're in a goddamn war?!  People who support it are just ignorant fucks who think that America is this vulnrable baby to outer nations and everyone else in the enemy, all the while this country's honor is going right down the shitter, we're only looking out for ourselves and we're letting our freedoms slip away to a comfort in personal ignorance when the government has it 'all under control'.

Offline Mistiq

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2006, 07:22:13 PM »
I don't have much to say on taxes except...

There is something wrong with the fact that a majority of gas prices are taxes...

California welfare changed for the better and once you get on you'll only get money for the kid(s) you have when you got on, then they will just add food stamps.

And I agree with Lilian on the last point that was made. Also if other countries were ticked off enough, the US in my view would be the equivalent of jumped...

Offline Jefepato

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2006, 09:37:25 PM »
If China invades, it's all over.

I realize this is a tax debate, not a military debate, but China couldn't successfully invade the US.

The US probably couldn't invade them either (not to mention, it'd be an economic nightmare), but China simply doesn't have the means to mount an effective invasion against us.  All the manpower in the world wouldn't mean a thing if they couldn't get them onto American soil.

Now, if other countries joined with China to attack the US?  I couldn't say, but it still wouldn't be pretty for them.

Offline Mistiq

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2006, 07:44:49 PM »
That reminds, I never understood why there was a need for a space program? It seems to be a dangous waste of money the more I think about it.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2006, 07:54:19 PM »
That reminds, I never understood why there was a need for a space program? It seems to be a dangous waste of money the more I think about it.

 Potential. Economic potential. There are resources in space that are waiting to be used. Minerals in the Moon, asteroids that can be mined. Colonies and bases on the Moon, Mars, in the Asteroid Belt, the moons of Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune, Mineral extraction on Venus and Mercury. Energy. The possibilities are endless if we can only establish a presense in space.

Offline Lilian

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2006, 11:29:36 PM »
Well said. ;)    The space program is dangerous. But so is any other profession! That's why it must be properly maintained and we shouldn't be launching so infrequently. There is a vast resource out there of inventive people out there. We have already built planes that can go into the stratosphere and cross the world on a single tank of feul without any problem.  I'm sure there's potential if we start remembering that AMERICA WAS GREAT FOR ITS INGENUITY!

Offline Elvi

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2006, 11:57:38 PM »
So, you are saying that the reason there is a space program is so that other planets can be ravaged like this one has been?
Damn and there I was thinking that it was to satisfy human's inquisitive nature and the need to understand what is beyond the present limits of our capabilities.

Offline Ariabella

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2006, 12:00:50 AM »
I fear they are right, Elvi, although once upon a time I thought like you did. To me, the space program was the prelude to the Starship Enterprise and Captain Kirk, exploring new worlds and learning new things.

Alas, our greed overirdes, and we inded would ravage the planets plus probably destroy all of the aliens when they protest.

Offline Lilian

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2006, 12:02:07 AM »
I feel there are numerous reasons, you both are right...

Offline Zakharra

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2006, 09:41:30 PM »
 It's the only way to og. Out into space and to spread humanity outward. Or stay here on Earth and eventually collapse into a decayed society that will rot and eventually die on this planet. To keep a industrial society going requires more resources in metals, fuel, energy, space to grow and a challange. The resources of the Earth are being used up. That's a fact and it would happen no matter what nation ruled.  I'm for colonizing the other planets/moons of the solar system and going to other systems.

 On one side we would be taking our prejudices, lifestyle and cultures with us, but those ones that left would also change to adapt to the new enviroment and possibly be better than what they came from. Or they could be worse. No one knows what the future will be. We would ruin some worlds, and others would be cared for. Some would be beacons of light and prosperity, others pits of dispair and squallor. 
 
 As for aliens, I have long wondered where are they? Our galaxy is full of habital worlds and it's about 15 billion years old, yet where are the other alien races? There should be star-faring civilizations all over.

Offline Ajoxer

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2006, 03:07:37 PM »
Well, humans are a destructive species- Life, by it's nature, is a destructive species. The only reason nothing in nature usually tends to wipe out it's competition is the fact that it can only change through evolution- It's like trying to make a job out of playing slots. Then you get species that are accidentally displaced from their ecosystem, and either die out, or end up prospering damagingly because they have no natural predators. Technology has let us change ourselves at our own choice, and in a timeframe an infinitesimal fraction shorter than that of Evolution. We've won the game of Life, and we accidentally screwed up the board.

I hope that we can learn our lesson, but the question is when will we come into conflict with an alien race, not will. As of yet, resources are still limited- Just because getting out into the galaxy would let us get at a whole lot of them doesn't mean it will stay that way forever.

I think that the sort of species that we would end up getting along with best would be silicon-based. They'd inhabit entirely different planets, want different materials... You find the best relationships between creatures that don't fight.

But then, hey, we can't know until we try.

But one way or another, it's either into the sky or under the seas- We can't last if we stagnate, and for the last 100 years, there's been no real new growth. I think that the space program, if we can start really doing something with the money poured into it, is going to be very, very important.

DAMN I tend to ramble...

And just as a note, the number of worlds habitable by life as we know it is actually fairly slim. Not to mention a species that actually manages to gain intelligence to the point where they can escape their planet without getting destroyed by any of a hundred massive extinction events...

Offline Zakharra

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2006, 10:57:32 PM »
 
Quote
But one way or another, it's either into the sky or under the seas- We can't last if we stagnate, and for the last 100 years, there's been no real new growth. I think that the space program, if we can start really doing something with the money poured into it, is going to be very, very important.

There has been alot of growth in the last 100 years. It's been industrial and economic. We can do far more today than we could a centry ago.  Jet planes, rockets, reusable shuttles(and more usable ones coming up). Computers and material sciences. 100 years ago there were no airplanes. No computers. Very primative rockets. Now we are at the point we can take the first steps into the vastness of space.

 

Offline Lilian

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2006, 12:03:21 AM »
And finally, sci fi geeks the world might have thier dreams come true - alien nookie! XD

Offline Zakharra

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2006, 08:42:48 AM »
And finally, sci fi geeks the world might have thier dreams come true - alien nookie! XD
Lol! Captain Kirks of the world unite! Heheehehehehehe.

Offline RogueJedi

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2006, 09:22:54 AM »
As far as taxes go...

I work for Republican Senator George Allen (Virginia).  I am a libertarian and a supporter of the Fair Tax system.  The biggest waste of tax money is the IRS and their lobbyists.  Get rid of them, get rid of income tax, and put in a 25% consumption tax nationwide, and it is fair.  That way, you are only taxed if you buy things, and the more expensive things are taxed more.

As for tax breaks for the rich, that is a misnomer.  They don't really get tax breaks.  It is just that the rich know every loophole in the IRS taxcode.  Get rid of the money grubbing IRS, and things would become alot smoother and more money will actually come in as taxes.

Here in Virginia, the former governor (who is seeking the Democrat nomination for President) said when he came into office: "I will NEVER raise taxes.  That is my solemn pledge to all Virginians."  Three years later, he pushes through a $1.4 billion dollar tax increase, saying it was necessary because the state had a huge deficit.  Two weeks after the tax raise was passed, the Commonwealth reported a budget SURPLUS of over $350 million.

Now, his former lt. governor who is the new governor, after also saying he would not raise taxes, is trying to push through an almost $1 billion tax increase again.  It is ridiculous, and I frankly would love to get rid of every congressman (state or federal) who vouches for increasing spending all the time.  Learn to work with a budget, like normal Americans have to do.

Offline Natalie C. BarneyTopic starter

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2006, 03:12:02 PM »
Why not use the original Constitutional Tax System decide on what the budget need of the Federal Government is and then tally that and tell the states to pay their share based on population? After all I believe the taxes should be levied at the most local level that makes sense at that generally is the State. And the States has the right to say NO the ultimate checks and balance on government spending at the Federal level.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2006, 12:33:56 AM »
 To get rid of the income tax would require a Constitutional amendment. Since it was a amendment that gave us the income tax system.

 I'm not sure a 25% consumption tax would be fair either. That is a high tax. 25% of anything you buy? Harsh. I know that I would buy alot less and grow more food myself than to spend that much for things.  The IRS collects money, where most of the waste is, is Congress. All of the pork and special projects the Senators and Representatives pass in budget spending. Like what is coming up for the President to sign real soon. It's loaded down with riders and special projects for Congressional reps to take home to the folks.

 I'm for a fairer tax that gets all income earners. A flat tax. Have no or very few exceptions.

 If the States could say No to the federal government and hold taxes back then there would come a nasty fight very soon as some states would not hand over the taxes that the federal government does need to operate.

Offline Lilian

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2006, 12:40:44 AM »
Well, I still think taxes need to be changed depending on how things are going with America, but ..  indeed.. these useless projects need to stop. Until we can cut through some of the curroption, red tape and downright selfishness of people in office, I dont think we could do much to stop it anyways. I wouldnt mind giving power to other people in a government, I just need to trust that these people will be selfless to the cause of thier country, and that they are brilliant to the function in which they serve. This 'president picks his own cabinet' deal is a bit of bullshit if you ask me.


 I think the people, combined with the senate, have a right to choose whoever the fuck they want, when the opporotunity comes up. The idea of a single man, possibly curropt, possibly a moron, choosing the future of this country just because he's there at the right time just chills me.

Offline Ajoxer

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2006, 07:52:40 AM »
Take a look at the Supreme Court in Canada... Prime Minister chooses who he wants, the people don't even have a right to know who's ON the Supreme court.

Offline RogueJedi

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2006, 08:11:21 AM »
Zakharra,

check out www.fairtax.org and they explain how the fair tax system works.

Honestly, it is already being used by two of the states with the largest intake: Texas and Florida.  Those two states don't have income tax if I am not mistaken, and just charge a flat tax on all products and services.  But, the national fairtax would rebate all spending up to the poverty level.  So I think it is a good deal.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2006, 09:09:00 AM »
 That site keeps wanting to give me pdf's.  :-\

Offline RogueJedi

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2006, 09:18:17 AM »
Let me see if I can get the info from them.  I'll post it if I can, or at least a link to a .doc file.

Offline Natalie C. BarneyTopic starter

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2006, 12:46:29 PM »
Zakharra,

check out www.fairtax.org and they explain how the fair tax system works.

Honestly, it is already being used by two of the states with the largest intake: Texas and Florida.  Those two states don't have income tax if I am not mistaken, and just charge a flat tax on all products and services.  But, the national fairtax would rebate all spending up to the poverty level.  So I think it is a good deal.

I live in Florida there are problems with the system we have constant vicious fighting over the budget and serious property tax issues one local county raised the impact fees on new construction from $700 to over $3700 and several groups are suing. And the tax is a slaes tax with numerous exemptions. But I agree on some sort of flat tax might work better at the Federal level. But why a rebate why not just lower the flat tax and keep it simple.

Offline Lilian

Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2006, 03:02:06 PM »
I live in Las Vegas. They're like.. "Money problems? RFOL!"

"We make so much excess money, LET'S ACTUALLY GIVE FULL REFUNDS ON EVERYONE'S REGISTRATION FEES!"

TheoTheBard

  • Guest
Re: Taxes: Cost of Liberty
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2006, 04:04:54 AM »
I live in Las Vegas. They're like.. "Money problems? RFOL!"

"We make so much excess money, LET'S ACTUALLY GIVE FULL REFUNDS ON EVERYONE'S REGISTRATION FEES!"

What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

The U.S. Treasury was hosed from the day Richard Nixon took us off the gold standard.  From there it was only a matter of time until Uncle Sam spent himself into penury.

Near as I can tell, the plan in Washington is to spend, spend, spend, have a huge debt--then go conquer everyone we owe it to.  What are they going to do, come and fight the 82nd Airborne to collect?  Kind of like Joe Pesci in Casino.