Topic: Shooting at the Holocaust Museum - At least one dead

[Vekseid]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/10/museum.shooting/

A lone gunman shot a security guard at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum on Wednesday before being wounded himself by return fire from other guards, police said.

The wounded guard later died, according to CNN affiliate WJLA, citing fire and police officials.

The suspect was identified as James von Brunn, an 88-year-old white supremacist from Maryland, two law enforcement officials told CNN.

The gunman entered the museum at 12:50 p.m. with a rifle and immediately shot a museum security guard, said Chief Cathy Lanier of the District of Columbia's Metropolitan Police Department. Two other security guards returned fire, wounding the gunman, she said.

...

That the attacker was 88 years old struck me. I wonder how many nutjobs we're going to have to deal with when they turn 88.

[HairyHeretic]

Well, 88 is symbolic for that type.

[Avi]

Yeah, 88 stands for a couple of things for the neo-nazis (can't remember exactly what).  I'm seeing more of this kind of thing down the line, due to the fact that A LOT of these kinds of people are unhappy that Obama made the presidency. 

[consortium11]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/10/museum.shooting/



That the attacker was 88 years old struck me. I wonder how many nutjobs we're going to have to deal with when they turn 88.

Tragic case.

On the number of hardcore Neo-Nazi's/Racist Skinheads etc out there in the US, IIRC the last "count" had them being a fairly low number: the KKK only had around 3000 people and other groups weren't doing much better. They make a lot of noise and can do horrific things but the actual number of people who are generally considered a real threat is relatively low (as opposed to the "casual" racism that is widespread in near every country).

H is the 8th letter of the Alphabet

88 = HH = Heil Hitler

[HairyHeretic]

They make a lot of noise and can do horrific things but the actual number of people who are generally considered a real threat is relatively low

All you really need is one person with an automatic weapon and they can do a lot. Especially if they're not overly concerned with their own survival.

[consortium11]

All you really need is one person with an automatic weapon and they can do a lot. Especially if they're not overly concerned with their own survival.

Of course, and each would be a tragedy.

But as for the question that Veks mooted about how many we'll have to worry about when they turn 88 in terms of numbers it's little different from the fundamentalist black power movement or the very hardcore milita/anti-federal movement (as seperated from the white power movement although there is a certain amount of crossover).

[HairyHeretic]

Well, thats also true. I'd like to hope that at 88 most wouldn't be capable of shooting anyone.

[Oniya]

Out of curiosity, how do they actually do these 'counts'?  Do they have a question on the census somewhere asking 'Are you currently a member of any of the following groups?' with a little check list?  I can't imagine that the membership rolls are terribly public (and if they are, I doubt they're accurate).

[Rhapsody]

Most cults and hate groups like this are under police or federal surveillance.  Undercover agents, narcs and turncoats would all be sources of information for estimates of strength, honestly.

[consortium11]

Out of curiosity, how do they actually do these 'counts'?  Do they have a question on the census somewhere asking 'Are you currently a member of any of the following groups?' with a little check list?  I can't imagine that the membership rolls are terribly public (and if they are, I doubt they're accurate).

I actually have no idea: can't find a source that sets out how people estimate/get the numbers. I'd guess it's attendence at rallies, moles within groups, the police investigations into some of the groups/survellience etc

I appear to have got the figures slightly wrong as well... on a quick google-fu search it puts KKK (all of the various types) membership of around 5000-8000, with membership having increased in 2006.

[HairyHeretic]

I'd imagine official agencies of various types keep track on them, plus prison records.

[Avi]

Prison records, surveillance, and former members can all be good sources of intel.  In all honesty, the cops probably treat most of these groups the same as they treat gangs like the Bloods and Crips, only with more resources from the federal level.

[RubySlippers]

Yeah, 88 stands for a couple of things for the neo-nazis (can't remember exactly what).  I'm seeing more of this kind of thing down the line, due to the fact that A LOT of these kinds of people are unhappy that Obama made the presidency.

http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/numbers_88.asp

[OldSchoolGamer]

Prison records, surveillance, and former members can all be good sources of intel.  In all honesty, the cops probably treat most of these groups the same as they treat gangs like the Bloods and Crips, only with more resources from the federal level.

What's at least mildly scary is that, with the incipient economic crash, we're likely to see an increase in these kinds of groups.

I am sincerely hoping that we as a society are better than that, and come together to meet this crisis in a more productive, pro-active way rather than splintering along ethnic, religious, or other such lines.  But at this stage, it's too early to determine what the outcome will be.  I do believe at a minimum we're going to see an uptick in random acts of violence as people, motivated by political and apolitical reasons, sense themselves being pushed "off the cliff" by the collapsing economy and decide to take others along for the ride.

[The Overlord]

That the attacker was 88 years old struck me. I wonder how many nutjobs we're going to have to deal with when they turn 88.

This guy didn't recently come out as a nutjob, he's been working on a career of it for most of his life.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_holocaust_museum_shooting

Excerpt-

Von Brunn has a racist, anti-Semitic Web site and wrote a book titled "Kill the Best Gentiles," alleging a Jewish conspiracy "to destroy the white gene pool." Writings attributed to von Brunn on the Internet say the Holocaust was a hoax. "At Auschwitz the 'Holocaust' myth became Reality, and Germany, cultural gem of the West, became a pariah among world nations," one says.

In 1983, he was convicted of attempting to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve Board and served more than six years in prison. He was arrested two years earlier outside the room where the board was meeting, carrying a revolver, knife and sawed-off shotgun. At the time, police said von Brunn wanted to take the members hostage because of high interest rates and the nation's economic difficulties.

........


Navy records show von Brunn enlisted in 1942 as an apprentice seaman before accepting an appointment as a naval midshipmen in the volunteer reserves in March 1943. On his application for enlistment, the 21-year-old listed his reason for signing up as "patriotic." His records show he had language qualifications in both English and French after spending three years in college. He was discharged from the Navy in 1956.

A cousin, Virginia Gerker of St. Louis, said in an interview she hadn't seen him in 50 years. She said her family had "disowned" him and believed him to be mentally ill.

About a dozen years ago, he applied to have his art shown at a gallery in Easton, Md., according to two of the owners. Laura Era and Jennifer Wharton said they rejected his work and he stomped out.

Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center said von Brunn's Web site has long been listed as a hate site.

"We've been tracking this guy for decades," said Heidi Beirich, director of research for the law center's Intelligence Project, which tracks hate crimes. "He thinks the Jews control the Federal Reserve, the banking system, that basically all Jews are evil."

H is the 8th letter of the Alphabet

88 = HH = Heil Hitler

A few years ago I worked at a store where the page for customer service was 88. Then at some point it came up that 88 meant Heil Hitler and it was changed to 99. The true threat to society is this lemming effect. It's like the Procter & Gamble logo controversy that happened in the 80's...you guys may or may not be old enough to remember it. Someone saw what they interpreted as satanic connotations in the old logo and so the company changed it to avoid the feedback.

It's not just the intolerants in society that are the issue, it's all the gelatin-spined nitwits that play into their shit. Somebody 'sees something' and then everyone else 'decides it must be somehow evil'. We could stamp this stuff out as soon as pops up, but lemmings...they're all lemmings.

People are fucking stupid. Sometimes it's amazing we've survived as a species this long.

[Avi]

I'm pretty sure that the fact he was 88 when he went on this assault was a coincidence.  In any case, it's more likely that he just wanted to go out with a bang.  You know, he'd been harboring anti-semitic, anti-minority sentiment for decades, and this was probably what he figured would be his last act on Earth.  One last "fuck you" to the conspiracy that he'd deluded himself into seeing form around him.

Overlord's right, the guy had gone bat-shit years and years ago.  I mean, he tried to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve back in the 80s.  It was pretty clear that he wasn't right in the head and apparently the FBI had been keeping an eye on him for some time, for what that's worth now.

[Jude]

As for how they determine hate group statistics, there are organizations dedicated to labeling and tracking hate groups.  The Southern Poverty Law Center that has been all over the news lately with their representatives is one such organization.  They're a fairly reputable organization and the source of a lot of the information about hate groups.

What I'm tired of is people blaming the internet.  Just because someone puts something in front of you doesn't mean you have to accept it.  The only thing the internet has done is given people access to more information, it can't force you to accept it, they do that for their own reasons.  If you want to stem the tide, teach people critical thinking so that they will be less likely to accept ridiculous ideas.  The real problem is that we aren't teaching the populace the fundamentals of logic so that they can refute points made by nutjobs.

[The Overlord]

I'm pretty sure that the fact he was 88 when he went on this assault was a coincidence.  In any case, it's more likely that he just wanted to go out with a bang.  You know, he'd been harboring anti-semitic, anti-minority sentiment for decades, and this was probably what he figured would be his last act on Earth.  One last "fuck you" to the conspiracy that he'd deluded himself into seeing form around him.

Overlord's right, the guy had gone bat-shit years and years ago.  I mean, he tried to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve back in the 80s.  It was pretty clear that he wasn't right in the head and apparently the FBI had been keeping an eye on him for some time, for what that's worth now.

It was plain obvious what Veks was driving at with the 88 reference at the get-go, but I too do not believe that was intentional, at least it was not the main impetus for his actions...perhaps if anything a window of opportunity at his advanced age.

I tend to agree; this was Mr. Loony’s last hurrah, one last shot to take a shot at the system that he's blaming for everything that ails society...or at least his little fragment of it.


As far as the net goes, it's just public use information storage. Before the net, guys like him would have to rely on the library to check out books on bomb making and the like. No matter the media form, some will blame it as an enabler for guys like him.

What is missed here is that society is at fault for being his enabler, for not stamping out this kind of thinking. Racism and discrimination could be stamped out in a generation, at least rendered insignificant, if we didn't have A-holes like this passing on his crackpot ideas of black and white (in every sense of the phrase) to the next generation.

If this cockroach did have kids I can safely assume he may have tried to pass it on, yet, it's still not too late. His sons and daughter, if any, have the chance to make a choice. To either repeat or condone the sins of the father, or to rise above it all and evolve...perhaps for the first time in their lives.

[Caehlim]

I know this is a tragedy, but I think it's important to remember that in a country the size of the U.S. we only get a few of these nutcases every year. I don't think it's time to lose faith in mankind or think that the world is descending into chaos and anarchy.

In the last 60 years racism has gone from being a way of life for the average person to a dirty little secret. Hopefully we'll see it fade further until people finally realize that we're all the same species with minor surface changes of no real relevance.

I read a while ago that Germany is becoming a major tourist spot for Israeli travelers as the anguish of World War II begins to fade into simple history which many of the younger people feel curious about.

I like to see things as getting better and I think there's some real justification for that view. It's just sad that bloody morons like this guy want to drag us kicking and screaming back into the depravity of our past.

[Silk]

All wars and wounds die out and heal in time, Generally it happens when those that were living it mostly die off.