Exalted vs World of Darkness

[AndyZ]

Picture this, if you will:

Elysium. All the best-dressed monsters in the city have gathered to see and be seen. There’s a commotion outside the doors, and conversations stall as immortals tilt their heads and listen. The door opens and an unconscious ghoul falls through it. A wave of alarm ripples through the room, followed by anger and hunger.
The figure in the doorway is human, you see. Mortal. Some of them can smell the sweat on his skin, hear his heart pounding in his chest. It’s just a kid, 18, 20 tops, skinny, with a wild mop of carroty hair, standing there backlit by a street light. He’s got a gym bag. The room’s silent enough to hear a pin drop, certainly quiet enough that everyone hears him swallow and unzip the bag. Half of them could be across the room in a heartbeat to end this, but eternity’s a long time and there are, eventually, so few surprises.
He pulls off his shirt, revealing nothing very impressive, and then brings two objects out of the gym bag. The first is the saddest, shittiest mall katana you could ever imagine. The second is a rubber horse-head mask, which he pulls on before stepping out into the gallery light.
The first vampire is just starting to laugh when the icon of a blazing sun erupts, shining gold through the rubber mask, and then the killing starts.

Exalted vs. World of Darkness is a game where your character used to be an ordinary person on modern day Earth.  Something happened where you were thrown into a traumatic situation, you suddenly developed astonishing supernatural powers and a strange symbol appeared on your forehead.  As it turns out, there’s all kinds of monsters who stay hidden from ordinary humanity.  What will you do to remake the world?  Whatever you want.

https://holdenshearer.wordpress.com/2021/10/26/exalted-vs-world-of-darkness-revised/

Mechanically, these are Exalts returning to the world well after the Third Age of what is now the World of Darkness.  I’m setting their return is part of what (canonically arguably) begins the Sixth Age: June of 1999.

If you already know the system for Vampire the Masquerade 20th Anniversary, you know roughly 90% of the system, and nearly that much for the 20th versions of Werewolf, Mage, etc.  There’s a few rules changes where the writer felt that 20A stuff was clunky, a splattering of various Backgrounds across the many different WoD games, and then the powers of the various Exalted.

New players should focus on the Solar Exalted.  Ideally, I want to get one of each kind of Solar before we get Lunars, but I can open it to Lunars if that happens.  For that matter, you should have been Exalted very recently; the first scene is going to be getting everyone acquainted and helping ensure you all have a solid understanding of the world if you or your character didn’t already.

Now, I’ve yet to meet the WoD game where I don’t want to run it without at least some house rules, so here’s the list for this one:

Start with 25 Freebie points and Flaws don’t give points, nor does it cost anything to lose Flaws.  I’ve always found Flaws to run the gamut of problems, some entirely viable for a game, others clear point yoinking, and yet others that provide issues for the entire group but only give points to one person.  I find it easier to leave open the RP value, give everyone more than the min-maxers would get, and let everyone have fun.

Merits will be accepted on a case-by-case basis from various 20A and maybe Revised books.  Page 48 gives a good list of appropriate Merits (and Flaws), but I don’t even know if I want to allow “Because I think I can” thanks to how OP it is even for a 6 point Merit, and plenty of them don’t match each other when you cross different books.

Note that there’s a lot of listed Exalt Merits, but the only ones for which Solars are eligible are: Anima Control, Priest, Brigid’s Heir, Hedge Magic, Taint’s Warning.  All those are okay.

Past Lives may be used for any Ability.  For this version, Exalts have been back since June of 1999, which means over twenty years.  That’s not a huge amount of time, but it can still be enough to leave an impression [if] you want it to.  Your character may or may not remember the time of Exalted at the choice of the player.  Whether a new player wants a character whose only incarnation spent twenty years learning how to be epic at everything but didn’t encounter much of the supernatural, or an experienced player wants high levels of Past Lives and Occult to remember the first Three Ages in detail and most everything about the World of Darkness, both are quite viable.

Note that my original idea was to mix up supernaturals in general, but it seemed more fun to leave vampires vulnerable to fire but not to silver.  However, that’s not a promise of complete canon; the evil vampire sect of the Sabbat certainly exists, but whether Alex Swift is still around or ever existed isn’t guaranteed.

We aren’t using M20’s Destiny.  In my opinion, the Background just isn’t that good, and other games do it better.  Werewolf’s Fate version is pretty good, Orpheus (and Hunter from Revised) have seriously powerful ones, and if I end up allowing it, everyone will get access to the same version.  Ask and request if you want it, and make whatever case.

Backgrounds cost 3XP per dot, regardless of rating.  I’ve seen games do rating*3, and it tends to punish the socialites horrendously.  There’s no reason it’s significantly harder to get your fifth Contact or Retainer than your second.

You’ll have to pay XP for new Magic Items you get NPCs to make for you, but not for those you make yourself, or, say, a klaive you took off a Black Spiral Dancer’s corpse.

Called shots still require increases in difficulty.  Stunting is epic, and flipping off a flagpole while you’re lining up your shot won’t increase the difficulty, but aiming for the eye certainly will.

Bows can use either Athletics or Firearms.  Either can be given the Archery specialty at your pleasure.  Incidentally, the charts for weapons and armor are on page 309.

Assault Shotguns are capable of automatic fire.  I think it’s just a typo that the author didn’t put the asterisk; I’m making it official.

Essence is a type of Quintessence, though not all types of Quintessence work as Exalted Essence.  You likely won’t understand this; don’t worry about it.  This is a very minor point involving Mage where I disagree with the author, who went with a type of metaphysics that don’t really gel with other crossover rules across WoD itself.

All energy types are numerically equivalent; change all 2s and 3s for Essence-Lending Method on page 91 back to 1s so everything is 1 for 1.  I don’t even know what the author was trying to do here.  Spirits who give Essence for Gnosis to Garou give 1 for 1.  Spirits who give Essence to Exalts give 1 for 1.  Why would Exalts who give Essence for Gnosis to Garou give anything but 1 for 1?  Why is it 3 other times?  I’m still baffled that mages drain Dragon Nests dry but Exalts hang out and get ludicrous charge up, but I decided to leave that one be.

Also, it may have a use for feeding vampires, but with side effects that only the ST fully understands…

Ignore the rules on V20 274 about armor getting destroyed by too much damage.  It’s not in other 20A books and will just get silly if applied.  Somehow Exalts can apply their epic stuff without destroying their equipment; we can just say it extends to their clothing also.

Awareness senses supernatural powers, not supernatural beings.  This is not my rule, but I’ve seen it used well in the past, so I’m adding it while I’m thinking about it.

When someone uses a supernatural ability that isn’t overt (no need when it is), others can roll Perception + Awareness.  One success indicates that a power activated, two gives a general direction, and three lets you figure out who it was if you can see or hear them.  Four lets Solars recognize if it’s being used by a creature of darkness, and five lets you identify the vague type of supernatural if you’ve sensed it before and know what they are.

Note that this is only at the moment of activation, not an ongoing option.

Andy may create other house rules as necessary.  I only found this today and definitely haven’t read the entire thing.



You’ll be starting in the fictional city of New Westhaven on the eastern coast of the United States.  It’s split down the middle by a river but rejoined by several bridges, and generally, the more affluent area is the north, the more impoverished south of the river.

Pistols and revolvers are legal to own and carry with permits, and as long as they’re not automatic, shotguns and rifles may be owned.

The reason I love fictional cities is that we can make up as much as we want, bending the setting to suit the players and story rather than forcing the players into a setting that may not work for them.

If you have a cool idea for a baseball team, let’s hear about it.  Maybe there’s a pollution-belching King Distilleries factory that you used to work at before two of the employees grew tentacles and lunged for you (which is probably also how you Exalted.)  Tell me about the nightclub where your friend went missing after being invited upstairs to the VIP area, and even though they called to say they were okay, you never saw them again.  Unless you just came to this city, you all had lives before your Exaltation, and your characters may want to settle scores.

I haven’t figured out the medium for this game - likely just Elliquiy, but I may use Discord if there’s enough demand.  However, the biggest question is if there’s enough demand for this game at all.

Also, for those who know Hunter: the Reckoning, the Imbued are not in this game.  I’m not sure if I really buy the explanation given on page 260, but the logic holds, and the kitchen sink is well and goodly clogged anyway with all the things that are definite.  I did like the idea that the world got Exalts instead of Imbued enough to go with it.  I’m not sure if I want to include Demon: the Fallen either, given that I never really learned that game and that its metaphysics don’t mesh well.

So…who’s interested?

[HairyHeretic]

How similar is the ruleset to say, 2.5 Exalted? I've played a little WoD but not much.

[AndyZ]

It’s the WoD ruleset, usually V20, though there’s very few changes between that and W20, M20, C20, etc.  Unfortunately, that’s very different from the Ex2.5 system, though I’d love to have you in.

You don’t really need to know much about the WoD beyond what you already know: it’s mostly identical to our world but with hidden monsters.  If you have ideas for a particular Caste, it won’t be hard to give suggestions for an Exaltation situation.

[HairyHeretic]

I was playing in a VtM game, so I do have some basic knowledge of the setting. Is that the same ruleset as this?

[AndyZ]

If it was 20th Anniversary, yes.  If it was Revised, there’s a few minor changes like that specialties now give 2s instead of roll-again.  If it was 5e, I’m led to understand that that’s vastly different.

[RSGAlex]

I have some interest. Also, I can kinda answer the last point in the block I have quoted. It's because M20 doesn't often care to make decisions about the past and their systems even as it's expanding things. In Mage 2nd, a mage can fill up to full (whatever that is for their status) from any friendly node and the rating just determines how much Tass can be gotten per week. Which is important because, one, it's mage money, and, two, it's a lot safer and easier to get quint on the go as refined Tass than with Correspondence and Prime or Prime 5. In revised, there was now a total limit dot based limit on quint you could get, either as free or Tass.

M20 mixes it by splitting the draw into a limit of free and a limit of Tass based on dots, which has now expanded.

All energy types are numerically equivalent; change all 2s and 3s for Essence-Lending Method on page 91 back to 1s so everything is 1 for 1.  I don’t even know what the author was trying to do here.  Spirits who give Essence for Gnosis to Garou give 1 for 1.  Spirits who give Essence to Exalts give 1 for 1.  Why would Exalts who give Essence for Gnosis to Garou give anything but 1 for 1?  Why is it 3 other times?  I’m still baffled that mages drain Dragon Nests dry but Exalts hang out and get ludicrous charge up, but I decided to leave that one be.





So…who’s interested?

[AndyZ]

Welcome aboard ^_^

Also, you’re certainly mechanically correct, but it seems very weird to be that Exalts (even multiple Exalts) gain a level every fifteen minutes from staying in the area, and Mages can get a max of 40 per week with an astonishingly powerful one, split among them.

I have a tendency to overthink metaphysics, but, while I considered dropping Dragon Nests down to something more reasonable, it’ll help keep the game moving.

Any thoughts on your Caste?

[RSGAlex]

Welcome aboard ^_^

Also, you’re certainly mechanically correct, but it seems very weird to be that Exalts (even multiple Exalts) gain a level every fifteen minutes from staying in the area, and Mages can get a max of 40 per week with an astonishingly powerful one, split among them.

I have a tendency to overthink metaphysics, but, while I considered dropping Dragon Nests down to something more reasonable, it’ll help keep the game moving.

Any thoughts on your Caste?

If you want a possible metaphysics answer, I can put one out for consideration along with numbers for how much a 2e mage could have pulled from a node per week (a silly low-highball is 112). Now that bit of sillyness said, I have an idea that probably goes easiest with Twilight, since I feel like playing with Hedge Magic, as the broad strokes idea would be an isolated hedge mage from a family of isolated hedge mages who started taking interest in the wrong person's supernatural forces. I can also work it for Dawn, since I haven't quite nailed down the form or paths of hedge stuff I want to go with and Dawn is an easy pivot.

[AndyZ]

I have easy access to the paper copy of the Sorcerer Revised book despite the cancer, so Hedge Magic is very doable if you want it.

[Hexed]

speaking of twilight cast or casters in general is WoD magic supposed to be so finicky and limited?

Haven't tried actually crunching numbers, as I suck at that, but it looks like you have to pour almost all your resources into a single path of magic just to keep it from blowing up in your face let alone being useful.

Or did I miss something since WoD is not a system I'm very familiar with?

[AndyZ]

“True Magick” that Mages get is exceptionally dynamic, giving choices for pretty much anything, but even more expensive than Hedge Magic.  By contrast, even ordinary people can learn Hedge Magic, as can nearly anyone else.

Exalted also get Ancient Sorcery, so don’t miss that one.

[RSGAlex]

speaking of twilight cast or casters in general is WoD magic supposed to be so finicky and limited?

Haven't tried actually crunching numbers, as I suck at that, but it looks like you have to pour almost all your resources into a single path of magic just to keep it from blowing up in your face let alone being useful.

Or did I miss something since WoD is not a system I'm very familiar with?

Hedge Magic normally works under the assumption of mana, which is a very easy-come easy go resource but also one of the most limited. You need a lot of investment as a hedge sorcerer to get more than five points of mana and it's going to be a bit of work to get every extra point over five. Exalted spend Essence like mana, and while it doesn't come back as fast it's far more powerful. What an Exalted hedge mage wants is 3 dots so they can start getting rid of the WP cost because with any excellency the increase in difficulty that comes is trivial.

Plus you can do excellency one turn and then essence for difficulty decrease in another relatively early on. Really, without some custom work, the only places that Exalts don't easily run roughshod over normal hedge mages are rituals and Weather Control. And that second one only because of the hilarious WP costs.

[Hexed]

So I was missing something. Just gotta dig through all the right books.

Thank you both for the explanations.

[AndyZ]

So I was missing something. Just gotta dig through all the right books.

Thank you both for the explanations.

No worries.  Interested in joining, and if so, what Caste?

[Hexed]

It's tempting, although a setting i know very little about, I've read the books ages ago but I think they were one of the versions prior to the 20th anniversary. Way back when Vampire the masquerade came out as a video game.

As for caste... Undecided but could possibly finangle Dawn, Twilight, or Night. I'd absolutely suck as one of the speech giver caste. ^^

Huh. Minus the flaming head I bet a hedgewitch biker type could pretend to be ghost rider. Enchant the hell out of your gear and bike then set your weapon on fire.

Have to see what pictures I can dig up. Maybe an idea will grow firmer.

[AndyZ]

Definitely understand if you aren’t interested due to lack of understanding, and both VtM Redemption and VtM Bloodlines won’t teach you much of anything about the system.

If you’ve played Shadowrun, roll d10s instead of d6s, target number is more variable, 1s subtract except for Caste stuff.

[Hexed]

I have played shadowrun!

And always willing to throw something in and see what catches fire. It being viable... no promises there.

[RSGAlex]

Also, I got reminded that Mr. Gone did a nice two page sheet for Ex vs WoD, and that I did make a little ODS spreadsheet which will do some very basic dot tracking for Attributes and Abilities. If either of those will help anyone.

[AndyZ]

I have played shadowrun!

And always willing to throw something in and see what catches fire. It being viable... no promises there.

Definitely understand not being able to promise coming up with a concept.  They either come or they don’t, and I’ve had too many games myself where I’ve expressed interest only to have the metaphorical fishing line come up empty.

[AndyZ]

Also, I got reminded that Mr. Gone did a nice two page sheet for Ex vs WoD, and that I did make a little ODS spreadsheet which will do some very basic dot tracking for Attributes and Abilities. If either of those will help anyone.

Thanks for letting me know about the MrGone.  That was seriously hidden such that it took me several minutes to find even knowing about it.

This was for the original, I think, not the revised, but it shouldn’t make a difference.

[Hexed]

How specialized should builds be in WoD anyways? I'm used to pathfinder where to stay competitive the stats you use should be maxed out.

So if we take a dawn caste bruiser of a 5' nothing biker chick with a baseball bat (funnier that way). Would she be better off with 5 strength/stamina & 1 dexterity or a more balanced 4 str/sta & 3 dex?


Given the expense for a non-twilight caste (17 points) to buy access to and 1 casting path at 3 dots would it be better to  ignore the hedge magic and stick to what you're good at?

I know shadowrun penalizes you pretty heavy for spreading yourself too thin. Are WoD games the same? Do you have to layer things to get the 25 dice pool for defense just to survive or can you do more things then just take a hit?

[AndyZ]

How specialized should builds be in WoD anyways? I'm used to pathfinder where to stay competitive the stats you use should be maxed out.

So if we take a dawn caste bruiser of a 5' nothing biker chick with a baseball bat (funnier that way). Would she be better off with 5 strength/stamina & 1 dexterity or a more balanced 4 str/sta & 3 dex?


Given the expense for a non-twilight caste (17 points) to buy access to and 1 casting path at 3 dots would it be better to  ignore the hedge magic and stick to what you're good at?

I know shadowrun penalizes you pretty heavy for spreading yourself too thin. Are WoD games the same? Do you have to layer things to get the 25 dice pool for defense just to survive or can you do more things then just take a hit?

My recommendation would be 4/3/4 over 5/1/5.  Like in Shadowrun, you have to pay more XP that way, but yeah, Dex 1 isn’t that great.

Likewise, if all you want Hedge Magic for is a single path, you can be better off doing something else or getting the Twilight to know it for you.  I should ask, though: which Path?  Maybe there’s an equivalent Charm.

[Hexed]

Bouncing between enchantment and hellfire.

I'll be honest I've mostly dug up a vamp 20th book n been looking at basics to better understand what the other book was talking about.

Kinda figured 4/3/4 would work better but always helps to ask!

[RSGAlex]

How specialized should builds be in WoD anyways? I'm used to pathfinder where to stay competitive the stats you use should be maxed out.

So if we take a dawn caste bruiser of a 5' nothing biker chick with a baseball bat (funnier that way). Would she be better off with 5 strength/stamina & 1 dexterity or a more balanced 4 str/sta & 3 dex?


Given the expense for a non-twilight caste (17 points) to buy access to and 1 casting path at 3 dots would it be better to  ignore the hedge magic and stick to what you're good at?

I know shadowrun penalizes you pretty heavy for spreading yourself too thin. Are WoD games the same? Do you have to layer things to get the 25 dice pool for defense just to survive or can you do more things then just take a hit?

To piggyback off AndyZ's words, I'll say that the general trick with hedge magic is to either get something that your charmset doesn't have or doesn't support as quickly. Like the Solar charmset doesn't do shapeshifting or shadowcasting, either to the degree that Path eventually goes or at all, respectively, so there is a potential buy. Or if you want to get into making magic stuff faster, there's alchemy and enchanting, but in general if an exalted charmset has access to it, it'll do it better, faster, or both than hedge magic. Thing is that both tends to be rare, unless it's dovetailing into something that's that exalt type's balliwick which can limit things.

A Solar can do Agg to creatures of darkness way easier than they can get agg from the Path of Hellfire. However, Hellfire will go and do it more generally even though you're spending more for 3 dots and/or the ritual given.

And to give some slightly 'more concrete' examples from what I'm considering, if I do the character as a Dawn (and thus a lone-ish hunter of the darkness) I'm probably going to just do a bit of Divination and perhaps a dot or two of some other path. Probably Conveyance. This is basically just for thematics more than the minor actual gains in ability since it's flavoring there. As a Twilight, I'd go heavier on Alchemy and Enchanting because while making Fetishes and Wonders is a lot more powerful, those two are faster and 'easier' to a degree than making Fetishes and Wonders unless I go Ancient Sorcery. Which I might. Haven't done all the numbers yet.

[AndyZ]

And as far as combat. Here’s how it goes.

Successes = hits.
Critical glitch = botch.

An attack is made with Dexterity +(Ability).  If someone defends, they can subtract from those successes, but you have to declare defensive actions and most people don’t.  Every success over the first adds another die to damage.

Damage can be soaked, meaning you effectively subtract it.  A vampire just won’t be hurt as much by a sword as a human would, but both can soak baseball bats.  Exalts can soak pretty much every type of damage out there; werewolves can soak anything but silver when they’re outside the form they were born in.  Anyway, you add your Stamina and any pertinent armor (a biker jacket is worth 1 armor with no penalty), and successes don’t mean that the attack just bounces off, but that you’re able to take it like a boss.

If you want to make sure you’re defended, Ox-Body Technique (page 84) gives you extra health levels.  Iron Skin Concentration (page 87) gives you better soak.  (The rest in this para you can’t start with without spending freebies.)  Iron Kettle Body (page 89) downgrades damage.  Finally, there’s a trio of Charms where attacks against you simply get perfectly stopped, either because you perfectly block or parry (and you can parry bullets), dodge, or just plain soak them.  There may be others I haven’t seen yet, but there you go.

You all also want to make sure you read the first Charm in your Caste, the Excellency, since you get all Caste versions with a single purchase.  The Revised changes mean I don’t know if it’s as good as it used to be, but it’s worth the notice.

Also, I definitely wouldn’t take a Path of Hedge Magic just to take it.  There’s plenty of other, far better choices.  I may even be able to put together an Item you snagged during your Exaltation, but the question would be what you want.