Coronavirus: Discussion and Information

[Azuresun]

Very good post, AzureSun.

That one comes up SO DAMN MUCH that I almost have a standard template reply for it. That, and "still on trial till 2023".

No, the trials are done. It's the standard post-release monitoring that every medication undergoes.

On a slightly funnier note, I've taken to collecting the names of anti-vaxxers and their predictions that I'll be dead in 1/2/3/5/10 years. I think I'll drop them a message as the deadline rolls by.

Meanwhile, there was an anti-vaxxer rally in Trafalgar Square in London yesterday, where former nurse Kate Shemirani compared doctors and nurses giving the vaccine to  Nazi "doctors," and said that the latter were hung (sic) after the Nuremberg trials. Words fail me, sometimes.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/anti-vaxx-nhs-nazis-covid-b1890039.html

Oh, the Nuremburg code? That one still pops up every now and then, and it's entirely inaccurate.

You can tell when someone from the Disinformation Dozen has dropped a new video, because the anti-vaxxers (alleged "free thinkers" who "do their own research") all start chanting the same new catchphrase. "Clotshot" seems to be trending at the moment.

[Oniya]

I found this both interesting and disturbing. Several social media influencers were offered money to promote material suggesting that the Pfizer vaccine has a significantly higher death rate than Astra Zeneca. The offer to promote this material came from a company called Fazze. Several of the influencers checked the information, its source and Fazze and chose to back out of the deal. A couple of them went ahead with it.

Very quickly Fazze's material was pulled from websites.

It was clearly disinformation and the influencers should be thanked for exposing Fazze.

It turns out they are Russians. I just... am getting so sick of the crimes that keep on pouring out of Putin's Russia.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-57928647

I read that last night/this morning (time - what does it even mean?)

It's not entirely clear if Fazze was trying to discredit all vaccines, or just Pfizer, as there seems to be some suggestion that it was an attempt to boost the Russian Sputnik vaccine's credibility/safety.  Regardless, Fazze's actions were distinctly shady, and kind of terrifying in the way that they went about things.  They were clearly targeting younger people with this campaign, rather than the older age-groups.

[Oreo]

The anti-vaxers astound me on a purely logical level. First people to get vaccinated were the health care workers. Ummm, they are still out there providing care.

Leaving in honor of those that were lost.

[Haibane]

A BBC article on several recent anti-vaxx claims and debunking them as all false or misleading. Some this this material may be useful to E members to use in discussions elsewhere.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/57941113

Elsewhere the Royal College of Nursing and the mayor of London have condemned Ms Shemirani's speech of Saturday in London. Police are reviewing video recordings of the event to determine if any hate speech crimes were broken.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57962675

I feel as though the human race is no longer fighting a war against COVID, or at least not just against it. We are now in two fights - against COVID and against people who pour out disinformation and even hate against our one good chance to beat this thing.

[Haibane]

Netflix and Google to require some employees to be vaccinated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58006810

Good. If people are going to be selfish and continue putting others at risk, this is the way its going to have to go. If people were sensible and voluntarily received the vaccine, steps like this would not be necessary.

In 12 to 24 months I can see the un-vaccinated (certainly those who choose not to be, rather than those who medically cannot be) being treated like smokers, or those who text while driving. It has to happen if we are to beat this thing and too many people still suffer under the anti-vax lies and delusions from misinformation.

[TheVillain]

At this point there's only two types of people who don't get the vaccine.

1.) People with immediate medical issues as define by doctors who otherwise would want them to get the vaccine, like people who've had CoVID within the last 90 days.

2.) Complete Fucking Morons.

[Haibane]

Under #2 I'd insert the adjective "selfish" as well.

[Beorning]

Under #2 I'd insert the adjective "selfish" as well.

"Your right to be safe from disease isn't more important than my right not be vaccinated!" - actual quote from an anti-Covid-vaccine person... *facepalms*

BTW. Polish President Duda went on record today stating that he's against any kind of compulsory vaccinations against Covid. He said the government should stick to promoting the vaccinations and trying to persuade people. But people shouldn't be forced to take the vaccine, because "it's a matter of free will".

This is said in the context when the Polish vaccination program is grinding to the halt, with a little over 50% of the population being vaccinated. The experts are urging the government to do something ASAP, because the next wave of infections will probably hit us in a few weeks (as the Delta variant is spreading over Europe). If we don't stop this wave, Poland will get another lockdown... and our economy can't take it. Nor do the people, who are exhausted. Not to mention, our national health service was pushed to brink the last time.

And amid all of that, the President comes out and claims that no, the vaccinations should never be compulsory. Let's just stick to persuading people and hope for the best.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.

[Saria]

And amid all of that, the President comes out and claims that no, the vaccinations should never be compulsory. Let's just stick to persuading people and hope for the best.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.

Please please tell me you’re not advocating for compulsory vaccinations!

Look, I get the frustration at all this stupid anti-vax nonsense, not to mention this unending pandemic that we totally could have stopped in just a couple months if we’d cared more about human life than “the economy”. And I have had pimples I approve of more than Andrzej Duda and the piss party, and I’m under no illusion that his “concern” for people’s civil liberties is anything more a sop to the anti-vaxxers and other ignoramuses in his base.

But… he’s not wrong.

I get that some things can get so frustrating that you want to shout “there oughta be a law” to fix them. But a law is always the absolute last resort you should think of using, in all cases.

It is already bad enough how much violent, coercive power contemporary governments wield. We should be absolutely opposed to giving them the power to use more violence, unless there is literally no other option.

And any sort of compulsory vaccine law would be giving the government more power of coercive violence. You may not be imagining state-sanctioned murders of people who refuse to vaccinate, but surely once you stop and think about it, you can see how that is not unlikely to happen. Unstoppable force meets immovable object; die-hard anti-vaxxer refuses to take the shot, resists when authorities try to force him to or lock him up, and boom, the nigh inevitable result of resisting any government. I do hope you’re not callous enough to say you don’t care: “Fuck ’im, he was an anti-vaxxer, he resisted the cops, he deserved to die.” No one, not even an anti-vaxxer, deserves to die. I don’t support the death penalty for any crime, and if you do, do you seriously think that refusing vaccination should be a capital offence? If so, why wait for a scuffle with the cops; why not just execute people if they won’t vaccinate, period?

Let’s take a step back and think this through calmly. If you give the government the power to force people to get this vaccine, you are creating a precedent that they will certainly use in the future for other vaccines. Surely you realize COVID-19 won’t be the last pandemic humanity faces (or, hell, maybe it will be, if we keep on track for lighting the planet on fire). You may be thinking, “fine, then those other vaccines should be compulsory, too”. You sure? Because what if the future “pandemic” the government decides the public needs to be inoculated from is a pandemic of queerness? What if someone develops a vaccine that “cures” homosexuality, or lack of Christian faith, or… I dunno, who can predict what might be an issue in the future. This isn’t even entirely hypothetical; it was mandatory for gay people to be sterilized at times in the past—consider the case of Alan Turing, for example. Granted, it’s unlikely that that particular measure will come up, because homophobia is pretty widely recognized as evil these days, but there will always be some new kind of discrimination in the future we haven’t thought of yet. Are you absolutely sure you can trust that the government will never abuse mandatory vaccination powers in some horrific way. And do remember, we’re talking about the POLISH government here. Do you really trust them that much to be restrained and tolerant in the face of all future moral panics? (I mean, Jesus, I wouldn’t trust the Canadian government with that kind of power; we’re still digging up dead children here from the last time the Canadian government thought they’d improve a population.)

I do approve of measures that ban the unvaccinated from public participation where it constitutes a threat to the health of others. Like, I do support banning your unvaccinated brats from public schools. I support banning your unvaccinated ass from public transit, and I support allowing private businesses to ban you from their premises without proof of vaccination. (By the way, it shoudn’t need saying, but obviously I’m not talking about people who can’t get vaccinated, for legitimate medical reasons.) I don’t approve of these things lightly, though, and I don’t approve of them without dire reservations (and I’m leaving out numerous caveats). But I think those kinds of things strike a better balance between safety and overpowering the government. If someone truly objects to being vaccinated, then they can still live their lives without the threat of violence by the government. They’d just need to permanently self-isolate, but freedom always comes with responsibility, and consequences.

[Beorning]

Please please tell me you’re not advocating for compulsory vaccinations!

Look, I get the frustration at all this stupid anti-vax nonsense, not to mention this unending pandemic that we totally could have stopped in just a couple months if we’d cared more about human life than “the economy”. And I have had pimples I approve of more than Andrzej Duda and the piss party, and I’m under no illusion that his “concern” for people’s civil liberties is anything more a sop to the anti-vaxxers and other ignoramuses in his base.

There's also the possibility that Duda himself is somewhat of an anti-vaxxer. Last year, in the middle of the pandemic, he said that he has never taken any flu shots "just because". And not too long ago, on some international meeting, he said that the Covid infection rate may have dropped in Poland not due to vaccinations, but due to nice weather...

I don't know. It seems to me like he just can't help undermining efforts at persuading the people that the Covid vaccinations are desirable and effective...

I get that some things can get so frustrating that you want to shout “there oughta be a law” to fix them. But a law is always the absolute last resort you should think of using, in all cases.

Well, I'll admit that, when I'm angry, I tend to mumble about banning things. Like, banning Amazon or UEFA But I try to keep that tendency of mine under control. That said...

It is already bad enough how much violent, coercive power contemporary governments wield. We should be absolutely opposed to giving them the power to use more violence, unless there is literally no other option.

And any sort of compulsory vaccine law would be giving the government more power of coercive violence. You may not be imagining state-sanctioned murders of people who refuse to vaccinate, but surely once you stop and think about it, you can see how that is not unlikely to happen. Unstoppable force meets immovable object; die-hard anti-vaxxer refuses to take the shot, resists when authorities try to force him to or lock him up, and boom, the nigh inevitable result of resisting any government. I do hope you’re not callous enough to say you don’t care: “Fuck ’im, he was an anti-vaxxer, he resisted the cops, he deserved to die.” No one, not even an anti-vaxxer, deserves to die. I don’t support the death penalty for any crime, and if you do, do you seriously think that refusing vaccination should be a capital offence? If so, why wait for a scuffle with the cops; why not just execute people if they won’t vaccinate, period?

I certainly don't advocate for people to be dragged for vaccinations forcefully! But... I don't know how that works in Canada, but over here, we already *have* a whole list of mandatory vaccinations. What's the problem with adding Covid vaccines to the list?

Let’s take a step back and think this through calmly. If you give the government the power to force people to get this vaccine, you are creating a precedent that they will certainly use in the future for other vaccines. Surely you realize COVID-19 won’t be the last pandemic humanity faces (or, hell, maybe it will be, if we keep on track for lighting the planet on fire). You may be thinking, “fine, then those other vaccines should be compulsory, too”. You sure? Because what if the future “pandemic” the government decides the public needs to be inoculated from is a pandemic of queerness? What if someone develops a vaccine that “cures” homosexuality, or lack of Christian faith, or… I dunno, who can predict what might be an issue in the future. This isn’t even entirely hypothetical; it was mandatory for gay people to be sterilized at times in the past—consider the case of Alan Turing, for example. Granted, it’s unlikely that that particular measure will come up, because homophobia is pretty widely recognized as evil these days, but there will always be some new kind of discrimination in the future we haven’t thought of yet. Are you absolutely sure you can trust that the government will never abuse mandatory vaccination powers in some horrific way. And do remember, we’re talking about the POLISH government here. Do you really trust them that much to be restrained and tolerant in the face of all future moral panics? (I mean, Jesus, I wouldn’t trust the Canadian government with that kind of power; we’re still digging up dead children here from the last time the Canadian government thought they’d improve a population.)

With all due respect, this is a really far-fetched "slippery slope" type of argument. Going with the same logic, we should be opposed to the laws that require you to take tests for bacteria etc. when applying for a job in a restaurant - because, one day, the government may require tests for not being queer...

As I said, vaccinations for some diseases (such as polio, tuberculosis, tetanus or measles) are already compulsory here. And that has never caused any problems.

I do approve of measures that ban the unvaccinated from public participation where it constitutes a threat to the health of others. Like, I do support banning your unvaccinated brats from public schools. I support banning your unvaccinated ass from public transit, and I support allowing private businesses to ban you from their premises without proof of vaccination. (By the way, it shoudn’t need saying, but obviously I’m not talking about people who can’t get vaccinated, for legitimate medical reasons.) I don’t approve of these things lightly, though, and I don’t approve of them without dire reservations (and I’m leaving out numerous caveats). But I think those kinds of things strike a better balance between safety and overpowering the government. If someone truly objects to being vaccinated, then they can still live their lives without the threat of violence by the government. They’d just need to permanently self-isolate, but freedom always comes with responsibility, and consequences.

See, I have some doubts whether Duda would approve these kinds of measures, too. We know that the experts are definitely urging the government to implement them, but the government has made no declarations yet. Possibly because they are afraid of the reaction from the people who don't want to be vaccinated... So, when Duda says "No compulsory vaccinations, let's stick to persuasion", I wonder: does he consider such selective restrictions to be a form of forcing people to vaccinate, too?

[Oniya]

I'm not sure about in Poland, but the 'compulsory' vaccinations (which include the ones you've mentioned) in the US still allow a 'religious objection' waiver.  It's one of the reasons that we've actually seen measles outbreaks in recent years.  Usually, the folks that ask for these do home-schooling, so the requirement for kids in school to present a vaccination card doesn't phase them.

[Beorning]

Back here, there are no waivers for compulsory vaccinations, even for religious reasons. Everybody needs to get the mandated vaccinations and people who refuse so can get fined. On the other hand, there are no rules forbidding unvaccinated kids from attending schools. For a few years now there have been discussions regarding imposing such restrictions, but of course the anti-vaxxers have always been vocally against them...

When it comes to Covid, the anti-vaxxers are getting really unreasonable. They don't want to get vaccinated, but they also are protesting the possibility of any kind of restrictions stopping unvaccinated people from going into public spaces. They are furious even when it's one specific private business or event that has such rules. Not too long ago, one of the leaders of our anti-vaxx movement made a big scene, when she tried to force her way into a concert where the organizers made it a rule that only vaccinated people were allowed in. The woman claimed such a rule violated her civil rights etc. Basically, our anti-vaxxers claim this kind of thing is a new form of apartheid, they are treated like Jews under the Nazi regime etc... 

So, I can only imagine what will their reaction be, if the government imposes county-wide rules like that. And they might turn out to be necessary, because our economy can't take another general lockdown and our businesspeople won't just agree to it. Even during the previous lockdown, there were multiple businesses that decided they can't afford to stay locked anymore and started openly disregarding the restrictions. If the next wave of infections hits us and the government imposes a new lockdown, business owners will be furious and won't go along with it. Not with the vaccinations being easily available and many people having taken their shots... So, it's quite possible that the government will be *forced* to limit any new lockdown to unvaccinated people.

That's why Duda's words infuriated me... Yes, he did make an appeal for people to get vaccinated in the same interview, true. But his claims that nobody should be forced to vaccinate *are* a fuel for the anti-vaxxers. This is bound to bite all of us back...

[Saria]

Well, I'll admit that, when I'm angry, I tend to mumble about banning things. Like, banning Amazon or UEFA

Okay, I’m totally on board with banning those. 😊

I certainly don't advocate for people to be dragged for vaccinations forcefully! But... I don't know how that works in Canada, but over here, we already *have* a whole list of mandatory vaccinations. What's the problem with adding Covid vaccines to the list?

I think there may be a communication issue over the idea of what “mandatory/compulsory vaccination” means.

We have here in Canada what sounds like the same system, where you need to have taken certain vaccinations to attend public school, and other stuff. I remember I had to get a whole set of boosters to work at the nuclear research reactor. I don’t consider that “compulsory/mandatory vaccination”, because it’s not actually compulsory or mandated… it’s just conditionally required.

If you really feel strongly about not being vaccinated, you don’t need to be… you just can’t go to public school, or do any of those other things that require the vaccinations. You can still live your life more or less the way you want, once you respect those restrictions. You could, for example, still go to a private school that doesn’t require vaccinations, or get home-schooled, or do correspondence courses, and end up with the same academic credentials. You’d be barred from certain jobs and stuff, but you wouldn’t be barred for working period, or even from working those specific jobs with reasonable accommodations where possible (like working from home). Basically, if you really don’t want to be vaccinated, you could still get by… granted it would be hard, and you’d face a ton of restrictions, but that’s perfectly reasonable. In practice, the restrictions are so onerous that everyone but the real anti-vaxx diehards just get the shot(s).

Compulsory vaccination, to me, means that the law says you must be vaccinated, and if you refuse, you face jail time or other punitive measures. Note: you don’t face consequences if you refuse to vaccinate and then try to do something like attend public school… you face consequences if you refuse to vaccinate… just that: refusing to vaccinate. There are a lot of compulsory things a citizen has to do, like filing taxes, doing the census… getting vaccinated could, theoretically, just be something added to list. And even if you live in a cave and never interact with the rest of society, you could still be required to do it… just as with your taxes.

That’s something I’ve seen some people floating—though I doubt any government is actually taking it seriously—which is why I was thinking that might be what you were implying.

As I said, vaccinations for some diseases (such as polio, tuberculosis, tetanus or measles) are already compulsory here. And that has never caused any problems.

🤨 “… that has never caused any problems”? I assume you mean just within Poland (but even then… are you sure?). Because governments using supposedly benign medical treatments to do horrific shit to minorities is not exactly a rare thing. It’s actually quite common, in fact; if it never happened in Poland, then Poland would actually be a bit of an outlier. Entire populations were sterilized or experimented on under the guise of vaccinations: there’s the infamous Tuskegee experiment of course, and here in Canada, indigenous people were sterilized without their knowledge or consent. (Even if the specific mechanism wasn’t mass vaccinations in Poland, some form of sneaky eugenics done during medical treatments almost certainly happened… and if Poland ever did actually have mass vaccination programs, you have to admit that would have been a great way to do it.)

Even your “far-fetched” example has actually happened, sorta: the Canadian government used a test they claimed was to measure a person’s response to “stress”, to see if they could handle government jobs… but it was actually a “gaydar” they called the “fruit machine” to keep the gays out. That slope ain’t as slippery as you think it is.

(As for the specific example, there are a lot fewer reasons to be wary of testing for germs to work in a restaurant. To start with, it’s a limited requirement—only restaurant workers, not literally the entire population, and restaurant work is optional; if you don’t trust the government (and lots of people, like indigenous people and people of colour, have damn good reasons not to trust the government), then you can just find another job. It’s also merely testing, not actively injecting something into people; swabbing for germs is a lot less invasive, and a lot less likely to be dangerous than injecting some fluid into your body.)

I’m well aware that the scenario as I described it is unlikely; I even said so. Homophobia is still around, but for a government to re-institutionalize that level of homophobia in 2021 is… unlikely, to say the least. I am not psychic; I can’t see the future and know all the novel ways people will invent to discriminate in years to come… or the novel ways they will come up with to actively perform that discrimination. But I am at least psychic enough to know that some government, somewhere, will absolutely try to use some method to modify or eradicate some subpopulation they deem in need of it. Slipping a little something in a mandatory vaccine that everyone has to get (and can’t be anonymous for, for medical record reasons) would be an awfully neat way to do it.

See, I have some doubts whether Duda would approve these kinds of measures, too. We know that the experts are definitely urging the government to implement them, but the government has made no declarations yet. Possibly because they are afraid of the reaction from the people who don't want to be vaccinated... So, when Duda says "No compulsory vaccinations, let's stick to persuasion", I wonder: does he consider such selective restrictions to be a form of forcing people to vaccinate, too?

I agree with your thoughts and concerns about Duda. I mean, I only get my information about him third-hand; I don’t actually read Polish news, or speak Polish other than a few stock phrases, but I do get the sense that he’s either anti-vaxx, or at least playing at it to appeal to a certain base. I assumed he’s just opposed to compulsory vaccination as I understand it… but maybe he’s also unwilling to legislate vaccination requirements to access public services, too.

[Oniya]

That one comes up SO DAMN MUCH that I almost have a standard template reply for it. That, and "still on trial till 2023".

No, the trials are done. It's the standard post-release monitoring that every medication undergoes.

I literally had to tell Mr. Oniya about this fact-check today.  He's been hearing about a vaccine mandate going into effect in New York City for businesses, and went off (despite all of us having gotten our jabs) about how things weren't tested or cleared.  (Annoyingly, he first brought it up last night before he went off to bed, so I had to rely on a verbal summary rather than pointing at something official and saying 'SEE!?'  (One of my many previous jobs was as a computer tech at a viral research lab.  I know something about testing protocols!)

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/nyc-require-proof-vaccination-indoor-activities-mayor-2021-08-03/

[Azuresun]

The latest trending bit of anti-vaxxer propaganda seems to be that you don't need the vaccine if you have natural immunity (and that if you had a cough or sniffles at any point in the last year. that was obviousy Covid and you now have immunity because of your super manly all-natural immune system spanking the virus and making it cry). Also that the vaccine destroys your super manly all-natural immunity because it's all unnatural and chemicals and grrrr.

Stay tuned to see what catchphrase the Free Thinkers all start chanting next in unison.

[Haibane]

Why do they keep inventing new reasons? Surely they have plenty already. What's wrong with them? Its like they are insecure in their thinking so that if they pile on 25 reasons not to take the vaccine that's a stronger argument than having one reason. 

[Oniya]

Well, Mr. Oniya is back to having to wear a mask at work - his store has a policy based on some kind of metric about COVID-related cases in the area

[Azuresun]

Why do they keep inventing new reasons? Surely they have plenty already. What's wrong with them? Its like they are insecure in their thinking so that if they pile on 25 reasons not to take the vaccine that's a stronger argument than having one reason. 

No, because if there's one area of concern, that can be addressed and debunked. Throw a whole slurry pit's worth of shit at the wall, and it's more likely that something will stick. This is about fearmongering--throw enough nonsense out there, and the rumours and "I heard someone say that...." spread further and have more chance of scaring someone away.

[Saria]

No, because if there's one area of concern, that can be addressed and debunked. Throw a whole slurry pit's worth of shit at the wall, and it's more likely that something will stick.

Not so much “stick” as “avoid being addressed and debunked long enough (because people are too busy debunking all the other shit) that it gains a faux legitimacy merely by being around for a while”.

That’s the really insidious thing about the “throw every random shit you can think of out there” strategy. None of it needs to be even remotely reasonable. Even a gibberingly stupid claim magically becomes “strong” just because no one’s got around to poking a hole in it. And then the gallopers just need to point to the claim, and say, “see? they have no answer for this!” and voilà: you have an argument that sounds intriguing to the kind of people who like thinking they’ve discovered secret shit that no one else knows (even though they found out about it in a YouTube video, which is hardly a secret revelation text).

[Haibane]

CNN fires three staff who went into the office without being vaccinated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58112125

Quite frankly, good. We need more of this.

[elone]

Perhaps those who refuse to get vaccinated for no reason other than they are "free" to do so should be refused hospital care or admission when they get Covid. Only fully vaccinated people get admitted to hospital for Covid issues. Yeah, I am one of those who advocates mandatory vaccinations. I want to end this thing.

[Haibane]

The thing though is the ethics of healthcare. Health carers, nurses, doctors do and must provide for everyone, no matter who they are. We can never step away from that principle.

One weirdly capitalist route might involve health insurance companies getting hacked off with payments for C-19 treatments for those who are not vaccinated and make lack of vaccination a "pre-existing condition" or some other legalese term so that if anti-vax person A gets sick with Covid then their insurance won't cover the subsequent treatment.

I think, in the free-west at least, its proper and right that vaccination must be voluntary and that hospital care is available for all, no matter who, what or why. But private companies (like CNN above), UK event organisers such as sports events and music concerts requiring vaccine passports, and healthcare insurers might be the way we gradually see pressure being applied.

[elone]

I was posting kind of tongue in cheek, but mandating is the only way we will ever get out of this. We need the CDC to approve the vaccines and get rid of the emergency use tag for that to happen. Then the vaccine becomes like the vaccines for measles, polio and a host of other things we get vaccinated for.

[Haibane]

Oops the tongue in cheek bit went right over my head - sorry! 

The trouble with polio, smallpox and whatever was that they were issued to the world at a time when there was no internet full of medical experts and nutcases. Had there been, we'd still have lots of polio and measels cases around :( Its a tragic irony that we've now got so scientifically advanced that fewer people want a vaccine than when we were technologically less able.

In other ways its also an irony that the internet has enabled so much good and great communication around the globe, allowing such a wonderful spread of news and ideas - yet its also been a vehicle for negativity as well. I suppose negativity and misinformation has always been there, right back to when Thomas Caxton printed his first political pamphlet, its just that the internet allows it to spread ... like a pandemic.

I wrote here a day or three ago that eventually un-vaccinated people are going to be treated like smokers or drink-drivers or drug users. I can see that stigma happening because society and economies can't function with this level of virus still flip-flapping about the place. And it will only ever keep flip-flapping while it has un-vaccinated nitwits to carry it around.

And then of course, us rich countries need to bite the highly unpalatable bullet and offer millions and millions of doses of vaccine free to the third world.

[Blythe]

I wrote here a day or three ago that eventually un-vaccinated people are going to be treated like smokers or drink-drivers or drug users. I can see that stigma happening because society and economies can't function with this level of virus still flip-flapping about the place. And it will only ever keep flip-flapping while it has un-vaccinated nitwits to carry it around.

I could see this happening in blue states in the USA. Those are places where people are on board with basic science and have the clout to enforce this type of stigma socially.

I don't think it will ever really happen in conservative states in the USA. Pro-vaccine mindsets are the minority in these areas and their legislatures are controlled by anti-covid-vax politicians. My state is one such state, and the sheer level of hostility against people who vaccinated here is immense.

To a point where I have been told to my face by people here that they genuinely think the virus needs to 'work itself through people' and let the weak die so that 'the virus will go away.' A customer where I work found out I was vaccinated and will not let me serve them at the counter because they think I am 'shedding virus particles.' I've also been told, to my face, that I got a "biden shot." Whatever the heck that means.

(Interestingly where I live, no stigma against smokers or drunks. Drug users do have a stigma here, yes, but not because of the drugs themselves, but because of the strong pro-police culture here, and since the police don't like it, the locals don't either)

You can't fix stupid, and stupid is uncomfortably good at seizing social dominance in certain conditions. *sigh*

It's really exhausting living in an anti-science locale during a literal pandemic. :/