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Author Topic: New Racist America?  (Read 5700 times)

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Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2017, 02:07:55 PM »
As a Marxist-Leninist, believe me when I say, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of communism.

Maybe he meant: state monopolies of any kind are essentially communism. (I've heard people arguing the same about government monopolies on certain kinds of goods and services here in Sweden).

In this case, the chain of thought would be roughly: The government has a monopoly on recognized insurances - > Gov't forces everybody to pay steep fees without regard to what kind of services they need -> Punishments and heavy fines are written up against those who cannot or won't pay.

From what I've heard about the ACA and from talking to a bunch of Aemricans, here at E and in other places, also in real life, neither of those three sound like really fair descriptions of how it works.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 02:20:50 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline RedRose

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2017, 02:14:27 PM »
I have American contacts who use socialist and communist randomly, without knowing there are huge differences. As a European, it always puzzles me so much.

Offline Kythia

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Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2017, 02:15:45 PM »
Maybe he meant: state monopolies of any kind are essentially communism. (I've heard people arguing the same about government monopolies on certain kinds of goods and services here in Sweden).

Might not be communist, but your Systembolaget system is just crazy.  When I was over I didn't know about it and I had to go like twenty hours without booze. 

Offline Azikt

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2017, 02:28:58 PM »
There is a misconception in politics that serves the right extensively in political discussion, the idea that 'racist' is an insult, slur, or attack. Calling someone a racist or accusing them of racism is merely an allegation of a pattern of thinking, voting, political support, etc that hurts minority communities disproportionately. Pretending that it's 'namecalling' really just helps people who are racist hide their behavior and avoid having it drawn out, criticized, and considered.

Saying that 'your policies are racist' is namecalling is equivalent to liberals claiming that conservative charges that they are 'fiscally irresponsible' is mudslinging. Both are substantive critiques of individuals that merit consideration, not immediate defense and outrage.

I think this is one of the reasons why liberals often get a bad name for attacking the other side -- they're justifiably challenging their opponent's ideology, the same as everyone does in politics.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 02:30:51 PM by Azikt »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2017, 02:34:17 PM »
Might not be communist, but your Systembolaget system is just crazy.  When I was over I didn't know about it and I had to go like twenty hours without booze.

Yeah, the liquor and wine trade monopoly is one that gets invoked and used all the time by populist parties and folks who insist that state monopolies are communism. It's become a lot more shot through with holes in the last ten years, but if you arrive here on a quick trip or a two-week visit, never heard about the "System Company" and don't have any channeIs you know where to go to get the stuff (beyond the dedicated stores of the Systemet, I mean; there are now some ordinary foodstores selling wine too, just like in most other countries) and how it works, then it can be fairly tricky.  ;)

I remember the newsstand poster of a tabloid at new year's at some point (a dozen years ago) when a new EU court ruling meant it would become easier to import your liquor in your own car, or by crate sent on the road frpm Germany or France: "FREE BOOZE COME THURSDAY!"  ;D
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 02:41:29 PM by gaggedLouise »

Online Vekseid

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2017, 03:35:23 PM »
I have American contacts who use socialist and communist randomly, without knowing there are huge differences. As a European, it always puzzles me so much.

It's used as a thought-terminating cliche. It is less of a term and more of an insult. Something that in their minds represents failure.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2017, 09:10:44 PM »
Quote
The USSR and today's PRC are not communist strictly speaking. Communism is, in simplistic terms, a post-socialist society that is classless and nationless. Those two states you mentioned are socialist, they enforce a dictatorship of the proletariat over the bourgeoisie by means of state control.

Not trying to hijack the thread but...

I consider myself pretty much a Leftist.  I've never belonged to any political party here in the U.S., mostly because I don't trust parties, and would rather vote for the best individual rather than support any organization specifically.  I supported Bernie Sanders in the election, but my lack of belonging to a party hurt me there, so, like him, I've considered joining the Democrats to help change the party.

Anyway--I was wondering about your comment on communism.  From my perspective, with the variety of individuals in any nation-state, I've found it hard to believe that communism would ever really work in the modern world.  A hunter-gatherer society of 40-100 individuals, sure.  And is there really a difference in the U.S. between the bourgeoise and proletariat?  Perhaps the nomenclature of middle-class is deceptive, but with the standard of living and the average income of the U.S., most workers are bourgeoise here...unless your definition of the bourgeoise is upper middle-class or nuveau riche.  I'm much more supportive of a socialist system within a democratic framework.

Offline Doomsday

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2017, 10:24:51 PM »
I'd rather not take this thread off course, as I've probably already done. PM me if you like.

Online Vekseid

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2017, 10:41:06 PM »
Best to make a new thread, really. : )

Offline Noisekick

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2017, 06:28:03 PM »
I wouldn't say the entire country. I would say it depends on the state or area. In the south I can actually imagine that hostile xenophobic behavior to be more common. Went to Missouri a little bit ago and the people weren't really in your face about it and seemed to be able to at least differentiate between an illegal immigrant and a hispanic who legally immigrated to the US or did a good enough job to get citizenship. Most of my Missouri and Kentucky family actually voted for Trump, which I found a bit disappointing though.

Offline la dame en noir

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #85 on: March 11, 2017, 09:48:45 AM »
I wouldn't say the entire country. I would say it depends on the state or area. In the south I can actually imagine that hostile xenophobic behavior to be more common. Went to Missouri a little bit ago and the people weren't really in your face about it and seemed to be able to at least differentiate between an illegal immigrant and a hispanic who legally immigrated to the US or did a good enough job to get citizenship. Most of my Missouri and Kentucky family actually voted for Trump, which I found a bit disappointing though.
I think peeps need to stop stereotyping the South. I'm from California and everyone assumes its a melting pot Utopia - its not. Yeah, sure - Georgia still has its roots and some people are still that stupid, but people need to understand that racism spreads. I've dealt with more in Michigan and California than I have in Georgia.

Offline Lustful Bride

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #86 on: March 11, 2017, 12:48:55 PM »
I think peeps need to stop stereotyping the South. I'm from California and everyone assumes its a melting pot Utopia - its not. Yeah, sure - Georgia still has its roots and some people are still that stupid, but people need to understand that racism spreads. I've dealt with more in Michigan and California than I have in Georgia.

*nods* Hate and Racism (all types of intolerance really) Are more like viruses. They don't know Nationality, Race, Politics, Wealth. It infects everyone that it can and turns us into puppets to make us fight one another and spread it to more people in a cycle that never ends.

Offline Noisekick

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #87 on: March 11, 2017, 05:44:02 PM »
Georgia however is a less problematic state when it comes to racism. Kentucky is worse. Mississippi may be by far the worst. For many southern states it however depends on which area you are in. Rural areas are worse than urban centers.

Online Vekseid

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #88 on: March 12, 2017, 08:20:01 AM »
Well here in LA County it's...

Black business owner? Hires blacks and whites.

Hispanic business owner? Hires hispanics and whites.

Asian business owner? Hires asians and whites.

White business owner? May hire anyone, but getting promoted may be difficult.

It's not always this stark but it is definitely noticeable.

This holds true even if whites have effectively zero political power in the community. Compton, 1% white, ~20% of the employees.

Offline Mathim

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #89 on: March 12, 2017, 10:58:07 AM »
I think peeps need to stop stereotyping the South. I'm from California and everyone assumes its a melting pot Utopia - its not. Yeah, sure - Georgia still has its roots and some people are still that stupid, but people need to understand that racism spreads. I've dealt with more in Michigan and California than I have in Georgia.

Seriously. That incident I was talking about, where my friend's son got stabbed for protecting his minority friend, was here in California. There is no real safe haven from human stupidity.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2017, 06:27:40 PM »
I live in the 3rd poorest California country, and also one of the most conservative counties.  My Congressman is Kevin McCarthy, unfortunately.  There's more than enough racism here, though I tend to see less of it from the lower income whites, who seem to identify more with poor minorities.  It's the middle class whites who show most of the racism here.  I spend a lot of time around middle class whites partly because I am one, and I see and hear it a lot.  Most I know went for Trump in the election, though not all.  What surprised me were the significant numbers of Latinos who told me they voted for Trump.

Offline Lustful Bride

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2017, 11:24:05 AM »
I live in the 3rd poorest California country, and also one of the most conservative counties.  My Congressman is Kevin McCarthy, unfortunately.  There's more than enough racism here, though I tend to see less of it from the lower income whites, who seem to identify more with poor minorities.

Doesn't Matter what color you are, being poor is being poor :(. Its absolute shit and its constantly worrying about whether to have food or pay the bills at the end of the month. This month my family might not be able to make all our payments and I haven't been able to find a job despite going out and looking for almost 4 months now. I say this not to throw a pity party for myself, but to say that I've only gotten a tiny taste of what its like for some people. And its really made me realize how easy I had life before.

If more people who spoke ill of those in bad situations could get a taste of it as well they would likely soften on their ideals.

Quote
What surprised me were the significant numbers of Latinos who told me they voted for Trump.

Well that is their choice. For whatever reason they felt like he would be the better candidate for the country. Its not as if by being Latino they automatically had to vote for Hillary. :/

Offline Oniya

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2017, 12:48:35 PM »
Most I know went for Trump in the election, though not all.  What surprised me were the significant numbers of Latinos who told me they voted for Trump.

I have a teeny bit of insight on this.  My mother-in-law has a lady ('M.') who comes by and 'does for her'.  (She's in a building of elderly people, fixed income and all that, and M. will do things like small errands, light cleaning, and the like.)  M. is naturalized and went through all the necessary hoops to come into the country legally.  M. personally knows other people that have come into the country illegally, and proceeded to do illegal things here - and got kicked back out (possibly because they couldn't get legal jobs, but I digress...)

So - people like M. have a two-pronged rationale for being 'harsh on immigration':  1) I did it the right way - they should have to do it the right way; and 2) The people that do it the wrong way don't care about doing things the right way.

I firmly believe that this kind of rationale is based on limited information and a good deal of propaganda, so if you wanted to talk some of these people around, that would be a starting point.

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #93 on: March 15, 2017, 06:20:22 AM »
What surprised me were the significant numbers of Latinos who told me they voted for Trump.
I don't think it's like the Latino vote for Trump was all that extreme. It may have been where you are, but from what I recall, the nationwide vote of Latinos for Romney in 2012 was about 27%, for Trump in 2016 29%. The difference could be explained as a turnout difference and it's not all that large. The question is did those people vote for Trump the person, or Trump the Republican candidate. Given the partisanship in American politics these days I wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter.

That aside, here are two possible reasons I can think of for Latin-Americans to vote for the GOP:
1) Religion. I am not sure if this is just a cliche or not, but religious conservatism may play a role. My impression is that many Latin countries have a strong religious tradition that may influence their vote.
2) Economic anxiety. Many people who voted for Trump are not so much in economic dire straits, but afraid they will be there in the future. Again, this is just a personal theory not based on hard data. But perhaps some Latinos feel they are somewhere in the middle of society, not on par with whites, not as bad off as some blacks. I know from some studies I read about discrimination in the job and housing markets that Latinos are discriminated against, but not as much as blacks. They are somewhere in the middle, neither here nor there, not fish or fowl. That's a difficult position that can make people look for someone who will make certain they don't fall down that slope, promises certainty.

Offline Trevino

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #94 on: March 21, 2017, 06:39:16 AM »
What surprised me were the significant numbers of Latinos who told me they voted for Trump.

Being Latino myself, I will say that... honestly I don't get it either. Most likely they did it for much the same reasons the white people who supported Trump did. Though in their case, they did it with the additional belief that, somehow, they weren't going to be adversely affected by his policies (so either they didn't think he would actually do any of the things he said he would do, or they think their status as citizens would protect them...)

So - people like M. have a two-pronged rationale for being 'harsh on immigration':  1) I did it the right way - they should have to do it the right way; and 2) The people that do it the wrong way don't care about doing things the right way.

I firmly believe that this kind of rationale is based on limited information and a good deal of propaganda, so if you wanted to talk some of these people around, that would be a starting point.

Well, partially. I'm going to bet that racism played a huge role in their decision, and not immigration status per se. One of the little known things about this diverse group, that many will find surprising, is that racism between other fellow Latinos is actually quite common, especially if they happen to be US citizens. They'll deny it of course, but it's noticeable.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 06:56:36 AM by Trevino »

Offline Oniya

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #95 on: March 21, 2017, 12:41:49 PM »
Out of curiosity, do the division lines tend to be regionally derived or is there some other factor?  My mother-in-law (who is admittedly 'advanced in years' and sometimes not the sharpest of tacks on some subjects) had gotten the impression that M. was talking about shifty relatives.  This doesn't eliminate the possibility of racism, by any means, of course.  There's almost a trope of such divisions inside a family resulting from someone marrying 'the wrong sort'.

Offline Lustful Bride

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2017, 12:59:12 PM »
I have a small caviat myself to toss in on this since I do remember it happening once long ago when I was in Puerto Rico. I don't remember it in specific detail since I was too young and I honestly didn't care when my parents talked with their adult friends.

I remember in Puerto Rico a few family friends* would just swear and talk rudely about 'los dominicanos' and call them assholes, liars or thieves. But I don't remember or know why they did so. So it makes me think perhaps its more of a national thing since Dominicanos= Dominicans, as in from the Dominican Republic. *Shrug* :/

Similar to how a Caucasian American and a Caucasian Russian may hate one another and its not really race based, more nationalism.

*Should probably make the point to note that our friends were local/born Puerto Ricans.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 01:08:21 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Valerian

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #97 on: March 21, 2017, 01:06:50 PM »
My sister-in-law is Peruvian, and there is a definite divide in that country based heavily on looks.  There is a geographic component, mainly an urban vs. rural divide, but there's also a strong influence from appearance.  If an individual looks more European, that person is generally assumed to be part of the upper-class city folk.  If they look more like the indigenous Peruvian groups (who tend to have darker skin and be shorter / stockier), they're usually labeled working-class, more likely to live in small towns or rural areas.

Offline Trevino

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #98 on: March 21, 2017, 08:56:18 PM »
Out of curiosity, do the division lines tend to be regionally derived or is there some other factor?  My mother-in-law (who is admittedly 'advanced in years' and sometimes not the sharpest of tacks on some subjects) had gotten the impression that M. was talking about shifty relatives.  This doesn't eliminate the possibility of racism, by any means, of course.  There's almost a trope of such divisions inside a family resulting from someone marrying 'the wrong sort'.


In my experience the division tends to be more economic rather than regional. In particular, the racists tend to be economically better off. That being said, they are still clearly in the minority (we should remember that, overall, Trump won less than a third of the Latino vote).

But really, its the same phenomenon that you see with, say, Milo Yiannopoulos, a member of the LGBTQ community who is nonetheless homophobic and anti-LGBTQ. Or those African Americans who supported slavery (for instance William Ellison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ellison).

In my mind, perhaps the most outrageous example is Bobby Fischer, a Jewish person who was nonetheless virulently antisemitic.

Offline Oniya

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #99 on: March 21, 2017, 09:48:28 PM »
Thanks for the responses!  Knowing these sorts of things really does help.