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Author Topic: New Racist America?  (Read 5077 times)

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Offline Oniya

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2017, 02:52:35 PM »
uuhhh....Serial killing doesn't much have that much to do with race. I mean it can but not usually. And there have been Serial killers of all races. When one of them does it its mostly about the thrill of the kill or getting sexual gratification from the harm done to a victim, or the sense of power to have this person's life in their hands and knowing that the have the power to end their existence without repercussion. Granted yes its odd that most of the serial killers caught/identified have been white, but I personally just think that its because those are the ones we have caught. And if we could catch al of them in the world and count them up, it would probably be more of an even number, which in and of itself is terrifying since it means there are a lot more killers out there that will never be identified or known about.

Interestingly enough, there has been research done on this, and the perception of the 'average serial killer' as being a white male has become less accurate over the years.  (The 'male' bit is still overwhelmingly typical, though.)

Offline Lustful Bride

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2017, 02:55:01 PM »
Interestingly enough, there has been research done on this, and the perception of the 'average serial killer' as being a white male has become less accurate over the years. (The 'male' bit is still overwhelmingly typical, though.)

Or it means female Serial Killers are far better at hiding their crimes....neither option is very good :(

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2017, 03:11:36 PM »
I've been thinking over how some others have responded to my claiming I'd like the U.S. to be less white.  I know what it meant to me when I wrote it, but seeing other people comment on it has made me recognize other opinions.  Perhaps it would have been better to phrase it 'I'd like the U.S. to be more multiethnic'.  I'd really rather it be that every person was judged on their own merits rather than an archetype or generalized ethnicity. It is convenient to generalize in some cases, but this can be abused, as it is in racism.  I don't want white people to be removed from this country, if some people took it as that.  I'd much rather that, over the coming years, ethnic identification reduced to a minimum, as more and more people no longer fit within neatly defined ethnic groups.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2017, 03:16:09 PM »
Interestingly enough, there has been research done on this, and the perception of the 'average serial killer' as being a white male has become less accurate over the years.  (The 'male' bit is still overwhelmingly typical, though.)
Or it means female Serial Killers are far better at hiding their crimes....neither option is very good :(

The data used to correlate those findings are skewed by the idealism that women are notably less violent than men. As of recent, this idea has been seeming less and less true when you look at aspects such as social media. The fact is, if you look at notable female killers, they were often overlooked in the beginning based on the data given to professionals attempting to catch them. When a string of killings happens, people have an idea of a white male in their head. This isn't going away anytime soon. White Males are currently one of the most reviled creatures on the planet, and even if that isn't true, a look at most forums will certainly paint the picture that it is.

I'm not attempting to derail the topic, but people's tendency to lump all white men into a niche is one of the aspects I mentioned before. Racism exists on all sides of the spectrum. It's also not fair to dismiss this concern simply on the basis that "Well it doesn't change the fact that many are!" That is no different than someone defending a prejudice against black men on the basis that "It doesn't change the fact that many of them are criminals". Many people are many things, but if the tolerant allow this perception to cloud their judgement of an individual, it lends power to those wishing to separate us. In times like this, as I mentioned before, it's important that we not allow people to divide us like that. It's a strategy, and so far it's proving to be an effective one.
I've been thinking over how some others have responded to my claiming I'd like the U.S. to be less white.  I know what it meant to me when I wrote it, but seeing other people comment on it has made me recognize other opinions.  Perhaps it would have been better to phrase it 'I'd like the U.S. to be more multiethnic'.  I'd really rather it be that every person was judged on their own merits rather than an archetype or generalized ethnicity. It is convenient to generalize in some cases, but this can be abused, as it is in racism.  I don't want white people to be removed from this country, if some people took it as that.  I'd much rather that, over the coming years, ethnic identification reduced to a minimum, as more and more people no longer fit within neatly defined ethnic groups.
I understood what you meant, but it's one of those areas of wording. I believe this topic naturally puts people on the defensive, with each one feeling as though they or their race is being targeted. This, again, exists on all sides. I personally agree with you, for what it's worth.

Offline Mathim

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2017, 04:18:48 PM »

@ Mathim:
I personally feel like the abuse of religion to justify harm to others is really just a symptom of a faction having too much power. We saw that happening before in the cold war with the red scare, and that was all just about economics. :/

*Insert quote about power corrupting here.*

I really hope im not coming off as a know-it-all because i keep budding my head into things >_<.

Yes. Exactly. The faction having too much power is generally the one with the greater numbers. People justify the bad they do with religion the same way that racists justify their agenda, in other words, talking out their assholes. It just happens to coincide with the white, Christian majority being the most prominent face of it, frequently combining the agendas of both religious intolerance and racism. Currently the only minority with power are the 1%-ers. The only color that matters to them is GREEN.

Offline NotoriusBEN

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2017, 04:48:22 PM »
The majority of conservatives are not racist, sexist, bigots, homophobes, et al the other mantra that the left tends to paint them as. I'll ask you to listen to the news or podcasts that lean that way and tell me when they *wont* throw one of those epithets out at us.

With this whole immigration bit.

We do not care about LEGAL immigration to the United States. That means you go through the proper channels, get a visa, work as a productive member of society, pay your taxes, and adopt American values. IE, you don't want to turn America into sharia law or communism or socialism or anything that impinges on the freedoms and the way we do business or live our lives.

What we do not like and are fighting against, is illegal immigration. People who come here and get on a welfare check, food stamps, work under the table or some other black or grey market drain of money from us and then never paying the taxes you are obligated to pay.

That is not fair. That is not right. Is it an unbelievably huge understatement to correct this? Absofuckinglutely, but it has to be done and its not going to be fun.

I want the government to get out of my business, my healthcare, and to be shrunk down. The only things the American government should have an active interest in are preserving the Constitution and Rights *as* they were written *when* they were written, the Defense of this country, and the active encouragement of business and education. Not engaging in business and education because every time, its just been an atrocious money sink that achieved the opposite of its stated goals.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2017, 06:23:23 PM »
I can't speak to what the majority of conservatives are, since I've never met them.  I have to go based on conservatives who vote, and thusly who they support, and what those candidates espouse.  I also go on the conservatives I know personally, like my parents and co-workers.

When I speak to people in my own life who are white, Christian, and self-identify as conservative, I also have another factor that seems to get them to express themselves more freely.  I'm white myself, so most of them talk with me about things they don't talk about when people of other ethnicities are around.  And the things they tend to express with me and other whites when people of other ethnicities are not around are ideas that are racist.  I call them on these things, which usually ends up with me not being welcome around them anymore, or at the least, they don't express those things as often around me.  But, yeah...I find racism a much more common belief held by conservatives than liberals.

That doesn't mean liberals can't have regressive beliefs, too.  I know a fair number of liberals who claim I'm Islamophobic.  This seems to come from the fact that I'm against religion in general.  However--much like most Christian conservatives who tell me I only complain about Christianity when it comes to my atheism--these liberals say I am specifically against Islam, and completely disregard my stance against Christianity...as if Islam is an ethnicity rather than a belief system.

As for immigration...well, I've lived in California for most of my life, and I've known a lot of people who were illegals who have worked hard, loved their children, and paid taxes.  There are losers who are natural and illegal who try to game the system, but among illegals, I've seen a greater percentage of them who are highly motivated and work their ass off, because it takes a hell of a lot of motivation to risk your life and freedom to come to another country to find a better way of life for themselves and their children.  I haven't for a moment seen the vast numbers of welfare-loving illegals here that are supposed to exist.  I have, however, seen the vast number of crop-picking illegals who keep the agriculture industry alive, in California, in areas that are predominantly conservative-voting in this state.  Georgia tried banning illegals, passed legislation, and then the very next harvest, saw a 40% drop in workers to harvest, and this resulted in a $140 million dollar loss for the state.  I'm guessing all those crop-picking jobs that were available weren't the ones people were interested in.

Offline Azikt

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2017, 07:52:34 PM »
Quote from: NotoriusBEN
The majority of conservatives are not racist, sexist, bigots, homophobes, et al the other mantra that the left tends to paint them as. I'll ask you to listen to the news or podcasts that lean that way and tell me when they *wont* throw one of those epithets out at us.
While I agree that the left overuses the charge of bigotry, I think the right doesn't take such criticism of their ideology seriously enough. I am not certain that the majority of conservatives lack racial bias anymore than I am that they possess it. I am certain that the right backs a lot of ideas that disproportionately help whites and hurt minorities, but don't seem interested in any kind of introspection on the issue of race.
Quote from: NotoriusBEN
We do not care about LEGAL immigration to the United States. That means you go through the proper channels, get a visa, work as a productive member of society, pay your taxes, and adopt American values. IE, you don't want to turn America into sharia law or communism or socialism or anything that impinges on the freedoms and the way we do business or live our lives.
This, I think, is simply not true of your average conservative anymore. Conservatives overwhelmingly support the Trump immigration ban which is on legal immigrants who have earned their visas through a 2 year long vetting process.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2017, 09:38:09 PM »
In the process of Googling how one can even get food stamps while being illegal, I ended up running into the Mexican Migration Project data (through Reddit of all places).

http://mmp.opr.princeton.edu/home-en.aspx

Reportedly, something around 15% of undocumented immigrants receive federal assistance (i.e., welfare/foodstamps), and 50% of them pay federal taxes. Without looking at the raw data myself, though, I don't know how the actual dollar amounts compare, but I suspect it'd still be a net gain for the US there.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 09:58:20 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Mathim

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2017, 10:26:11 PM »
My roommate is actually an illegal immigrant (I was in a really bad place financially and have to live in a ghetto pretty much) and he's driving me crazy. I don't want him to get deported but in his particular case, he doesn't seem interested in improving his English and can't even afford a cell phone which seems to make things all the more difficult for him and would only make things better if he made that extra effort. And he only does under the table yardwork as far as I know. But he never fails to offer to share whatever food he makes or brings home even though I never ask for it, so he's got a good heart. I'm not entirely sure how he affords whatever school he manages to enroll in or how he finds time to go to classes or study given how insanely busy he always is working or looking for work. I know plenty of legal immigrants who can't speak English worth a damn and it makes it insanely difficult to help them at my job (I work at a financial aid office) and so many of them are failing classes left and right because of their inexperience with the English language. Honestly, I don't know what the criteria are for entering the country legally but I would have to assume it's nowhere near as stringent as it probably ought to be. Also most of said people also report being only on some form of government assistance as their sole source of income, so it's entirely a one-way street as far as who's helping whom. So both people like my roommate and people like those students who attend school at my workplace, are clearly not making productive use of their residence here. Whether legal or illegal, immigration needs a serious overhaul before the negatives can stop massively overshadowing the positives. But since a lot of the legal immigrants that I work with happen to be Eastern European (white) who barely speak English and live off of things like SSI, it's hardly a purely race-based issue at the heart of immigration's problems.

Obviously the entire economic system needs to be reformed for even the most basic improvements to actually work, but everyone also needs to take responsibility for making the most of their free education, responsibility for their reproduction (don't even get me started on our culture's insane sexual obsession - primarily obsession with stopping people from having it and all the implications that go along with it) and responsibility for their ethical choices (being cooperative rather than competitive, for example) that affect others' quality of life when one doesn't have to make massive sacrifices on one's own limited resources to help others. But rather than making it possible for all this to happen, and letting the wound scab over and heal, it's growing like it's being devoured by a flesh-eating bacteria strain.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 10:33:23 PM by Mathim »

Offline RedRose

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2017, 01:09:10 PM »
There are many legal immigrants who don't deserve it, while many illegal immigrants would be great citizens. I also know of European people who would be great assets but it's such a nightmare to immigrate that they give up. The problem is in the vetting... both ways.

I can't remember who wrote that white males are totally hated on these days, because I have the flu and can't think straight - but yup. They're THE group you can bash...

Offline Trevino

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2017, 01:42:02 PM »
I think this recent article by Chris Hedges does a good job summarizing the problem of "whiteness" in contemporary society: http://m.truthdig.com/report/item/james_baldwin_and_the_meaning_of_whiteness_20170219

At the end of the day, it's not about the color, or even the gender. It's ultimately a social relation. And at the present time, the white male needs to recognize that there is a societal structure (which is global, mind you), which does favor them disproportionately. 

The NY Times not too long ago (back in 2012) wrote about this: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/opinion/sunday/the-myth-of-male-decline.html

In my view it is more pertinent now than ever before, especially with Bannon at the helm of our national security apparatus...
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 01:48:45 PM by Trevino »

Offline Silk

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2017, 06:17:08 AM »

At the end of the day, it's not about the color, or even the gender. It's ultimately a social relation. And at the present time, the white male needs to recognize that there is a societal structure (which is global, mind you), which does favor them disproportionately. 


At the end of the day, its not about the color, or even the gender. It's ultimately a social relation. And at the present time, the Black male community needs to recognize that there is a cultural criminal structure (Which is global, mind you), which does represent them disproportionately.

Find that connotation racist? Good I found yours the same.

Offline Trevino

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2017, 08:51:09 AM »
At the end of the day, its not about the color, or even the gender. It's ultimately a social relation. And at the present time, the Black male community needs to recognize that there is a cultural criminal structure (Which is global, mind you), which does represent them disproportionately.

Except that there isn't, so the analogy is false...


Quote
Find that connotation racist? Good I found yours the same.

I guess a nerve has been struck then!

Really, though, there is no need to rush in to defend such a system, and we should certainly call it out on its failures at every instance (and yes, also to name the problem...)

Also be mindful of the fact that those in power will always view the "cadres" as expendable, no matter your devotion to it...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 08:55:11 AM by Trevino »

Offline Missy

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2017, 10:41:02 AM »
At the end of the day, its not about the color, or even the gender. It's ultimately a social relation. And at the present time, the Black male community needs to recognize that there is a cultural criminal structure (Which is global, mind you), which does represent them disproportionately.

Find that connotation racist? Good I found yours the same.

mm, yeah that would fall more along the lines of stereotypes.

Patriarchy on the other hand is not stereotypical and very real.

Offline Azikt

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2017, 02:15:26 PM »
It's difficult to deny that White Men have most of the power in the west when you examine the makeup of the most powerful people in the world.
Quote from: The Washington Post
The percentage of the House that is nonwhite at 22 percent and the same figure in the Senate at 9 percent. Women make up about a fifth of each body -- 19 percent of the House and 21 percent of the Senate.

[...]

So 88 percent of white Americans are represented by someone white in the House, versus 37 percent of black Americans and 26 percent of Hispanics. (For these calculations, we looked at non-Hispanic white and black population counts.) Eighty-one percent of men are represented by a man -- which makes sense, given that only 19 percent of the members of the House are women. But a remarkable 70 percent of white American men live in a congressional district which is also represented by a white man.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 02:17:50 PM by Azikt »

Offline RedRose

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2017, 03:02:46 PM »
No one could deny the powerful people are generally older white males.
In every day life though, white men are easier to bash without consequences...

Online Darkcide

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2017, 05:08:42 PM »
No one could deny the powerful people are generally older white males.
In every day life though, white men are easier to bash without consequences...

We have an entire generation that has been taught that it is alright to hate Middle Eastern people, and black people saying "We don't want to get shot by cops" offends the hell out of people to where they are likened to terrorists.

Offline Doomblade403xxx

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2017, 06:00:25 PM »
I will start by saying that I am a conservative and have been for a very long time. Why? Because frankly the democratic party does not seem to uphold the values that I hold dear. {Democrats created the KKK...true story...Hillary Clinton's best buddy and mentor Robert Byrd was a KKK leader} I HATE RACISM in all forms and function. There is no place in my country for it and frankly there are too many organizations in my country that use race to their advantage as a recruitment tool. These organizations aren't just white either. I live 60 miles from the birthplace of the Black Lives Matter movement, and quite frankly most people don't get to see how mean spirited and hateful that organization really is. Also my home area really got put under the microscope because a man was murdered by his wife and stepson, and he was apparently a grand someshit or another of the KKK. Well I guess I am clueless because I never knew there was even a KKK chapter in this area.

The point I'm making is my color and who I voted for doesn't define me. We got two choices this last election and one was just as terrible as the other. You all see color as the new racism...I have seen people harrassed for their ideals...even assaulted and held hostage in traffic...and to me...being held up in traffic because your not the right color and or having a bumper sticker for the 'other side' is just as bigoted.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2017, 06:51:54 PM »
I feel like people forget the basic American history they learned in school. The democratic and republican parties switched ideals in what...the 60s? So using that as an argument is completely irresponsible. Especially if we're talking about Trump's America where the KKK backs him 100% and the alt-right(aka neonazi's/white supremacy) are mostly made up of conservative people.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2017, 08:06:33 PM »
Sigh.

Once upon a time, there was a greater spread of political representation in both major parties.  Once upon a time, there were liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats in their respective parties.  The original progressives were led by Theodore Roosevelt, after all, who for his time was a liberal Republican.  The parties were very different, in different regions of the country.  A Massachusetts Democrat was very different from a Mississippi Democrat a hundred years ago.  Or even sixty years ago.

The rise of the Civil Rights movement changed all of that.  Franklin Roosevelt managed to be elected by a diverse coalition of Democrats, from white liberal northerners and blacks to white southern conservatives.  Those southern conservatives had hated the Republican party for generations--the 'party of Lincoln' who had represented what they saw as the northern aggressors.  It took Truman integrating the military to finally antagonize those conservative Democrats into leaving the party.  Strom Thurmond led those, now called the States Rights Democrats--Dixiecrats--and ran against Truman.  Despite splitting the party, Truman still beat Dewey--and that's one of the reasons why his win was so surprising.

Those Dixiecrats, those conservative Democrats--they became the modern Southern Republican party, after they joined the Republicans for good.  However, you still get arguments from people who don't know their history...who say that the Democratic Party was the party that advocated slavery.  The Southern Democrats sure did.  Many Southern Republicans did, too.  The parties really did differ regionally back in those days.  Northern Republicans and Democrats were generally opposed to slavery, if not equality.  Nowadays, you hardly see any liberals in the Republican ranks.  There are more conservatives still in the Democratic ranks, however.  Moderates come in both flavors, though true moderates are rare.  Most moderates lean one way or another.

The KKK was founded by Nathan Bedford Forrest, a former Confederate Army officer and Southern Democrat.  However, considering he, like the rest of the Confederates, were traitors to the United States, it hardly makes sense to call them Democrats.  Once they left the Union, Democrats and Republicans alike from the South were no longer members of the political process of the United States.  They were conservative, however, regardless of political affiliation.  Liberalism is not a political stance associated with slavery in any sense in the modern era.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 08:11:23 PM by HannibalBarca »

Offline Doomblade403xxx

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2017, 10:25:02 PM »
I'm not using an argument...im reciting history.

I've also sat on the sidelines and noticed most of the name calling and divisive talk comes from the left. Trump was not my first pick by a longshot...but I would be damned if I was going to put hillary in the white house. In fact you democrats should be up in arms over the DNC cheating Bernie Sanders out of the nomination.

Offline elone

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2017, 10:47:47 PM »
As a Sanders supporter, I agree. He got screwed by the Democratic National Committee. With no repercussions for all the cheating by the Clintonites.

HannibalBarca: nice history lesson, many probably do not know those things. Also add to the racial aspects of politics, George Wallace, the ultimate segregationist, ran in the turbulent year of 1968, winning 5 states, 13% of the vote (nearly 10 million votes), and 46 electoral votes. He was an independent and probably cost Humphrey the election as he  siphoned off Dixiecrat votes. Nixon won.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2017, 10:52:54 PM »
I'm not using an argument...im reciting history.

I've also sat on the sidelines and noticed most of the name calling and divisive talk comes from the left. Trump was not my first pick by a longshot...but I would be damned if I was going to put hillary in the white house. In fact you democrats should be up in arms over the DNC cheating Bernie Sanders out of the nomination.

Most of the name calling comes from the left? Where is your evidence of that? What about the slew of crazy folks that went up in arms when Obama got a second term, making dolls out of him with a noose around his neck, go crazy about him being in office - then telling non-trump supporters to get over it because they had to through 8 years of Obama presidency.

And what is this "you democrats" lol

Are we 12?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: New Racist America?
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2017, 10:55:45 PM »
As a Sanders supporter, I agree. He got screwed by the Democratic National Committee. With no repercussions for all the cheating by the Clintonites.

HannibalBarca: nice history lesson, many probably do not know those things. Also add to the racial aspects of politics, George Wallace, the ultimate segregationist, ran in the turbulent year of 1968, winning 5 states, 13% of the vote (nearly 10 million votes), and 46 electoral votes. He was an independent and probably cost Humphrey the election as he  siphoned off Dixiecrat votes. Nixon won.

Has anyone ever obtained hard numbers on how many Bernie supporters jumped the aisle to vote Trump over Clinton? There certainly weren't any official repercussions, but if there's a possibility that the DNC's open and unapologetic bias cost Clinton the election in a few of the key swing states, that might qualify.