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Author Topic: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim  (Read 1813 times)

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Offline persephone325Topic starter

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Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« on: June 28, 2016, 07:17:32 PM »
I have a few videos on my YT channel, and one of them has a copyright claim on it from some artist. They're only claiming about 20 seconds, saying that I'm using their "ambient rain" sound.

It's actually part of the video game ambiance. I refuted the claim, stating this AND the fact that I couldn't possibly be using their material when I posted the video back in 2014 and the ambient rain sound they're claiming I'm using wasn't released until 2016... >.<

Can anyone help me out?

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2016, 08:52:31 PM »
Not even a lawyer here, but - copyrighting rain?!?

Offline Vekseid

Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 08:53:40 PM »
The situation with copyright trolls on Youtube is currently a mess.

Has YT done nothing about your refutation? Who is making the claim?

Offline persephone325Topic starter

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 10:40:16 PM »
Not even a lawyer here, but - copyrighting rain?!?

Smh... I thought it was ridiculous and went "Uhh... What the fuck?"

The situation with copyright trolls on Youtube is currently a mess.

Has YT done nothing about your refutation? Who is making the claim?

Content
(More Rain) - M. Ward
Sound recording

Claimant
[Merlin] PIAS
[Merlin] Liberation Music
On behalf of: [PIAS]

That's what I see on the video. I Googled the "More Rain" by M. Ward and found out it was released in March of this year. The video I uploaded was uploaded in October of 2014.

I got this email on Friday:

"After reviewing your dispute, [Merlin] PIAS has decided that their copyright claim is still valid.

 Why this can happen

    The copyright owner might disagree with your dispute.
    The reason you gave for disputing the claim may have been insufficient or invalid."

I don't know what I can do to convince them otherwise. I already told them the video was uploaded 2 years before the "music" was released, so I don't know how I can "steal" something that didn't even exist until a few months ago. >.<

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2016, 10:47:58 PM »
Maybe you can ask for their proof that their recording was published prior to 2014 or some other way you could have accessed it.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2016, 10:58:58 PM »
Where's the Fair Use? (Nostalgia Critic)

This comes to my mind. I can't remember who brought this to my attention but... some good buddy here did. As mentioned above... YT is on some convoluted copyright mess these days.

I don't know how someone can claim copyright on something that existed before the people making the claim created said work... that's definitely something I haven't seen before on YT.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Rain (Published March 4, 2016, according to this, apparently by this 'M. Ward')

What game is using the ambient sound that's being claimed against?

« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 12:12:09 AM by Dallas »

Offline Dallas

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2016, 12:20:58 AM »
Something I'd check to help you with information, if you haven't already.

How to Deal with Copyright Claims (On YouTube)

Personally... I'd just take it down if they are trying to monetize from it. They get revenue based on the ads it generates if they claim that it's "theirs", basically. If some guy is going to troll you and try to monetize off of some BS that isn't even true, I'd just take it down. But it's your baby, so to speak. I can see this can also be fought but it's your call. ;)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 12:36:11 AM by Dallas »

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2016, 12:50:26 AM »
Where's the Fair Use? (Nostalgia Critic)

This comes to my mind. I can't remember who brought this to my attention but... some good buddy here did. As mentioned above... YT is on some convoluted copyright mess these days.

I don't know how someone can claim copyright on something that existed before the people making the claim created said work... that's definitely something I haven't seen before on YT.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Rain (Published March 4, 2016, according to this, apparently by this 'M. Ward')

What game is using the ambient sound that's being claimed against?

Found an article about the album on NPR.  Apparently, the track '[More Rain]' is "nothing but the howl of wind and the patter of precipitation."  I'm having a hard time imagining how something like that can be copyrighted.

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2016, 01:02:12 AM »
There is a chance it could be if it was generated or created using sound effects or a computer or if recorded sounds were combined and mastered in a unique and original manner.  Still, the sound would have to be copyrighted by the creator prior to the sound recording being cited for copyright infringement.  They need to show proof that they did create the recording and that it was stolen or copied.

As in the case of libel and/or slander the person claiming to be violated must prove it.  The same thing applies to plagiarism.  To accuse you of plagiarizing my work I have to show where my work existed so that you could steal it.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 01:03:13 AM by Beguile's Mistress »

Offline Dallas

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2016, 01:50:06 AM »
Found an article about the album on NPR.  Apparently, the track '[More Rain]' is "nothing but the howl of wind and the patter of precipitation."  I'm having a hard time imagining how something like that can be copyrighted.

Yeah, that would be correct. I listened to it out of curiosity. I'm in agreement here, though. This is pretty ridiculous. ::)

The problem with YT's copyright system (or my understanding of it) is that artists making claims are set up in this unfair balance of power where they can say (claim) pretty much  anything they want to. A lot of these claims can also be made without any proof to YT, as well. Which is some BS, but the common goals of this tend to be:

A) Get videos taken down (usually it's just trolls that do this)

or more likely...

B) Exploit the fact that people will "roll over" not knowing all of this scary copyright infringement stuff. Pushing the video creator to keep the video up and let the claimer get whatever money the video generates from the ads. It's abusing the Fair Use agreement via bullying the people that are unfamiliar with copyright jargon (that most of the ones making claims don't even understand).

Offline persephone325Topic starter

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2016, 01:50:50 AM »
Where's the Fair Use? (Nostalgia Critic)

This comes to my mind. I can't remember who brought this to my attention but... some good buddy here did. As mentioned above... YT is on some convoluted copyright mess these days.

I don't know how someone can claim copyright on something that existed before the people making the claim created said work... that's definitely something I haven't seen before on YT.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Rain (Published March 4, 2016, according to this, apparently by this 'M. Ward')

What game is using the ambient sound that's being claimed against?



Fatal Frame 4. It's weird, though. They're only claiming for about 20 seconds, even though the sound is being played in the background for a few minutes.

If I appeal this claim a second time, they could either forcibly take down the video. Or I could get a strike on my account. I'm not a fan of either option, honestly. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to approach this.

In all honesty, I don't really want to drop this. It's absolute bullshit, and I feel like I'm being unjustly accused of something.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
They're claiming the 28:34 - 29:09 time mark as theirs.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 01:53:00 AM by persephone325 »

Offline Dallas

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2016, 02:02:51 AM »
Hmmm... now I'm looking through all of it's OST (which apparently a lot of ambient sound). But more importantly... the game itself was apparently published in Japan on 2008 (from what I'm seeing)?

Even if this guy wanted to say "Errr... I was making these tracks in 2014" (the time of the video), it seems that everything included in the video's audio existed before he was even working on this 'More Rain' album. According to the same Wikipedia page... it says he began working on this in 2012. Four years after the game itself was published. This strikes me as a guy trying to abuse the system.

This is why I wish YT had a system in place to punish these people abusing this 'claim anything with no proof' bullshit.

Offline persephone325Topic starter

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2016, 02:10:54 AM »
Hmmm... now I'm looking through all of it's OST (which apparently a lot of ambient sound). But more importantly... the game itself was apparently published in Japan on 2008 (from what I'm seeing)?

Even if this guy wanted to say "Errr... I was making these tracks in 2014" (the time of the video), it seems that everything included in the video's audio existed before he was even working on this 'More Rain' album. According to the same Wikipedia page... it says he began working on this in 2012. Four years after the game itself was published. This strikes me as a guy trying to abuse the system.

This is why I wish YT had a system in place to punish these people abusing this 'claim anything with no proof' bullshit.


Yes. I very much agree. Even though this is the first time this has happened to me, I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for people who deal with this on a more regular basis.

And the game is the original Japanese copy. Not sure if it matters, or anything.

Does anyone know if copyright related issues are looked at by anyone at YouTube? Because I'd love to personally talk to someone from the help center about this.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2016, 02:31:24 AM »
In the "Where's the Fair Use" link I provided, it should give you an idea that a growing community in YT has been battling this. From small time video creators to big names like Markiplier, Nostalgia Critic (the one that made that video), Team Four Star, CinemaSins (I think CS is, not 100% sure on that), etc.

It's a bit of an uphill battle that they seem determined to not be "silenced" about. Nostalgia Critic mentions (in the same video link above) an organization called EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation). I'd check out the two links I provided, you'll realize that you aren't alone. Nostalgia Critic's video opens awareness about what's going on and what's being done about it. The copyright link I sent just gives a bit of insight as to how the whole thing works itself.

Another thing about YT is that its own personnel don't even have to look at the content being striked/claimed against. This is one of the reasons I don't even make YT videos anymore, but I am not shy about helping people with information that might help them fight this. While I can't donate to the EFF (wallet is bone dry)... I'm very vocal about supporting it (as well as the big names that are taking a stand). The EFF has also sued the shit out of these people abusing the system in the past, as I've understood (Nostalgia Critic also mentions that, I think). Yet... the wrongful BS still continues. I'd like to think this is calming down, but it's hard to tell how this battle is going.

But really, check out the video. If anything, you'll know that people out there are fighting this.  :-)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 02:58:46 AM by Dallas »

Offline Vekseid

Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2016, 12:59:08 PM »
Smh... I thought it was ridiculous and went "Uhh... What the fuck?"

Content
(More Rain) - M. Ward
Sound recording

Claimant
[Merlin] PIAS
[Merlin] Liberation Music
On behalf of: [PIAS]

That's what I see on the video. I Googled the "More Rain" by M. Ward and found out it was released in March of this year. The video I uploaded was uploaded in October of 2014.

I got this email on Friday:

"After reviewing your dispute, [Merlin] PIAS has decided that their copyright claim is still valid.

 Why this can happen

    The copyright owner might disagree with your dispute.
    The reason you gave for disputing the claim may have been insufficient or invalid."

I don't know what I can do to convince them otherwise. I already told them the video was uploaded 2 years before the "music" was released, so I don't know how I can "steal" something that didn't even exist until a few months ago. >.<

Apparently Merlin Networks is a rather well-known copyright troll. They're known for doing copyright claims on silence, among other ridiculousness.

PIAS is located at
[PIAS] HQ, 1 Bevington Path, London, SE1 3PW, UK

Wonder if someone could drop by and ask them about trying to claim copyright on rain sounds made eight years before their claimed content creator made it. On video. >_>

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2016, 01:38:07 PM »
Apparently Merlin Networks is a rather well-known copyright troll. They're known for doing copyright claims on silence, among other ridiculousness.

I think John Cage has them beat date-wise on that.  ;)

Just had a thought - The rain sound that Merlin is claiming their client has 'copyright' on was found in someone else's intellectual property - namely, the people that made Fatal Frame - which was produced earlier.  Couldn't it be easily implied that M. Ward is infringing on the game company's copyright?  Maybe it's possible to sic the behemoth that is Nintendo against the troll that is Merlin.  >:)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 02:24:29 PM by Oniya »

Offline persephone325Topic starter

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2016, 02:33:35 PM »
Hmm... So what would be a good move for me?

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2016, 02:40:56 PM »
Just to be a snot - since you got yours out there first - I'd file a copyright infringement claim against the other person for copying your rain sounds into their audio. ;D

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2016, 02:44:45 PM »
Just to be a snot - since you got yours out there first - I'd file a copyright infringement claim against the other person for copying your rain sounds into their audio. ;D

Except that Seph's audio came from Nintendo.  If anyone had the right to make that move, that would be who to do it.  Although it could be amusing to tell this Merlin group that they need to take up the claim with Nintendo, as the audio in the Lets Play is unaltered game content.

Offline The Dark Raven

Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2016, 02:49:37 PM »
I have not seen Seffie's video, but I have seen multiple things (usually Paramount Star Trek videos) that have a disclaimer that the video is for entertainment or educational purposes only.  Is there any way that can be put in the video information?  I can only assume a gameplay video is for that purpose.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2016, 03:34:01 PM »
Hmm... So what would be a good move for me?

Trying to get some attention to yourself with/from WTFU may help. At the very least, some people can offer advice.

The best solution is probably to coordinate a confrontation with Merlin's customers (PIAS, etc.) and start putting them in the limelight for dealing with Merlin.

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2016, 10:53:44 PM »
Man, I wish this group was based in the U.S. ... False copyright infringement claims are illegal as shit, last I checked. But yeah, I'd go the route Veks suggested there.

I have not seen Seffie's video, but I have seen multiple things (usually Paramount Star Trek videos) that have a disclaimer that the video is for entertainment or educational purposes only.  Is there any way that can be put in the video information?  I can only assume a gameplay video is for that purpose.

Some people do that... but every now and then people will still get this BS. YouTube is in chaos right now because of how it's handling its rules and community guidelines. People playing by the rules are getting random strikes and takedowns on their channel, while assholes like pranksters and people harassing others on the street for entertainment (and things much worse) are going untouched. Makes me wish that YouTube gets some real competition so that Susan Whats-Her-Name has incentive to get her act together. Otherwise, vid creators would have migrated to greener pastures by now.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 10:59:56 PM by Dallas »

Offline persephone325Topic starter

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2016, 10:59:01 PM »
I still haven't been able to find anyone in the YT community to help me.

I'm wondering if it would make any difference if I tried to contact Nintendo, or Grasshopper, or Koei Tecmo, directly and explain the situation to them. I mean, it's not like I make money off these videos but it's just super annoying that there's this bullshit claim on one of my videos. I feel really helpless and I'm very upset over this. I know it sounds stupid, but it's really frustrating.

EDIT: OMG! I just check the video claim, and they retracted their claim over the 28:34 - 29:09 time mark in the video. And now they're claiming 32:13 - 32:49 as copyrighted!!!
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 11:01:46 PM by persephone325 »

Offline Reno

Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2016, 11:12:54 PM »
They're probably abusing YT's broken contentID system.

I don't know if it will help your current video, but Jim Sterling came up with a rather clever sabotage for his series.

Offline persephone325Topic starter

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Re: Stupid YouTube Copyright Claim
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2016, 12:45:04 AM »
They're probably abusing YT's broken contentID system.

I don't know if it will help your current video, but Jim Sterling came up with a rather clever sabotage for his series.

LOL! That's amazing!

Sadly, though, it wouldn't work for my video/situation. But I do applaud his crafty scheme. XD